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Frontier Employees Jarred By Republic CEO  
User currently onlineLU9092 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 72 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16512 times:

http://www.denverpost.com/frontierairlines/ci_13786516

As a long-time fan of Frontier - I grew up in Colorado - I found this to be very disappointing. I'm a firm believer that religion is a private matter, and I know I would resent my employer praying for god's blessing on my behalf. I don't think it is appropriate, and as this is kind of a hot-button issue for me, I am inclined to avoid Frontier in the future. At the same time, I love supporting Colorado jobs, and I've always enjoyed the friendly attitude of Frontier's crews and other employees. I just can't condone religion having any role in the workplace in a free nation.

 Sad

217 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25834 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16490 times:

The story is over a month old and has been discussed already in the various Frontier threads.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16315 times:



Quoting LU9092 (Thread starter):
this is kind of a hot-button issue for me, I am inclined to avoid Frontier in the future

To keep from getting yourself upset, just view your right to Freedom of Speech the same as Bedfords expressing his rights.

Given the nature of the industry combined with the economy, I don't think we can afford to neglect anything from rubbing a rabbits foot or Buddha belly for luck to prayer. It is an UGLY environment these days. Right when the airlines cut capacity they're hammered by a winter storm with limited options in re-protecting passengers. My flight from PHX was cancelled because my plane was stuck in LGA. Ugh.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25455 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16247 times:
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Quoting LU9092 (Thread starter):
I don't think it is appropriate, and as this is kind of a hot-button issue for me, I am inclined to avoid Frontier in the future.

Then I guess you won't fly Alaska Airlines either?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1325 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16244 times:



Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):
To keep from getting yourself upset, just view your right to Freedom of Speech the same as Bedfords expressing his rights.

This is key, and the majority of individuals within the RAH family do not seem to mind, and many appreciate. As long as the Religion is not oppressive (which I dont see Bedford's as being so) then it is completely legal, and I think acceptable. In addition, I have not witnessed this issue affecting the passengers in any way.

However, LU9092, despite disagreeing with your reason for wanting to avoid F9 (or RAH for that matter), you are completely welcome to do so.  Smile



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5680 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16240 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
The story is over a month old and has been discussed already in the various Frontier threads.

Just because I am curious what the discussion was, can you point me to those threads? I did a search for it and couldn't find anything.

Thanks,

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently onlineLU9092 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 72 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16193 times:



Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):
Given the nature of the industry combined with the economy, I don't think we can afford to neglect anything from rubbing a rabbits foot or Buddha belly for luck to prayer.

Shouldn't a prayer work just as well if kept to one's self? In any case, point taken regarding freedom of speech, but I do think that discretion is important when one is in a position of power. How do you suppose it would go over if a manager at Frontier sent a memo to the company that explicitly expressed the belief that God does't exist and that prayer may make one feel better, but isn't going to do a damn thing for the airline? Free speech should protect that person legally, but it would probably offend some people, and a good manager would try not to do that.

That said, sorry to hear about your LGA experience. Luckily, I flew out of there - on F9 - yesterday morning with no delay. I did see some haggard folks still waiting to get on a flight after their Saturday flight was cancelled. Hope you've made it to where you're going.  Smile


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17681 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16160 times:



Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):
To keep from getting yourself upset, just view your right to Freedom of Speech the same as Bedfords expressing his rights.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
Then I guess you won't fly Alaska Airlines either?

But in an already contentious, messy merger of employees, philosophies, and brands, do you think adding fuel to the fire makes that easier or harder?

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 5):
This is key, and the majority of individuals within the RAH family do not seem to mind, and many appreciate. As long as the Religion is not oppressive (which I dont see Bedford's as being so) then it is completely legal, and I think acceptable. In addition, I have not witnessed this issue affecting the passengers in any way.

I think this, among a lot of other things that have been poorly managed, is greatly affecting the employees, which will inevitably affect the passengers down the road.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1325 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 16109 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
But in an already contentious, messy merger of employees, philosophies, and brands, do you think adding fuel to the fire makes that easier or harder?



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
I think this, among a lot of other things that have been poorly managed, is greatly affecting the employees, which will inevitably affect the passengers down the road.

For all comparisons, this is seeming to me to be one of the better managed mergers I have seen. They are already addressing issues that plauge the HP/US merger to this day, and DL seems they may end up with some labor problems.

In terms of this merger, I am having trouble finding things I feel are poorly managed, but that is for another thread...



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently onlineLU9092 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 72 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 16096 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
Then I guess you won't fly Alaska Airlines either?

All other things being equal, no, I wouldn't. I don't, however, find it so offensive that I propose some kind of boycott. I guess I just feel for the employees who are made uncomfortable by Mr. Bedford's expressions of faith. I do tend to avoid businesses that advertise they are a "Christian Business" - and if it were as prevalent, any other religion - because I find that kind of thing to be somewhat. . .tacky, maybe? It implies self-righteousness and pride, which I find a bit ironic. My bible knowledge is rusty, but I do believe both are discouraged.

[Edited 2009-12-22 09:49:11]

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25455 posts, RR: 86
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 16030 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
But in an already contentious, messy merger of employees, philosophies, and brands, do you think adding fuel to the fire makes that easier or harder?

I've worked with many over-achievers in my life. All of them, without exception, have some propelling imperative, even if it is only ego - soaring self-belief - which can lead them to do some pretty ugly things.

As the article clearly shows, this is who Mr Bedford is and this is the way he wants to run his company.

This is what propels him, and if there is a "risk" to that, so be it. He makes no secret of it, I knew about this when I bought a few shares in his company.

I don't "believe." I reject the label atheist, because that implies group think.

But I am not offended by someone else's faith or any non-violent or non-coercive expression of that faith

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 16030 times:



Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 9):
For all comparisons, this is seeming to me to be one of the better managed mergers I have seen. They are already addressing issues that plauge the HP/US merger to this day, and DL seems they may end up with some labor problems.

I definitely disagree with this for numerous reasons but will save it for another thread on another day. I'll just say this though the process has just gotten started and it will be hard to be as smooth as DL/NW. Probably not worse than HP/US, that is hard to do.


User currently offlineYeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 883 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15989 times:

Quoting Tugger (Reply 6):
can you point me to those threads? I did a search for it and couldn't find anything.

Here's one:
Republic - Midwest/Mokulele (by Mariner Jul 31 2009 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=4503136

yeo

[Edited 2009-12-22 10:04:26 by yeogeo]


Yokoso! to my world
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25455 posts, RR: 86
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15967 times:
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Quoting NorCal (Reply 12):
I definitely disagree with this for numerous reasons but will save it for another thread on another day. I'll just say this though the process has just gotten started and it will be hard to be as smooth as DL/NW. Probably not worse than HP/US, that is hard to do.

Grind that axe.

I don't see how you can compare this to Delta and Northwest. Both were in infinitely better shape than Midwest was when this process began.

Meanwhile, back to religion, I guess. If we must.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineLU9092 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 72 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15952 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
But I am not offended by someone else's faith or any non-violent or non-coercive expression of that faith

I disagree that a CEO, who presumably has power over the livelihoods of their employees, is expressing their faith - in business communications - in a non-coercive fashion. It may not be intended to seem coercive, but in an environment where people know their job could disappear at any time according to decisions made by the CEO, it could very easily seem that way. The business could be run with the exact same values, just without a religious label attached, and be just as successful without making anyone uncomfortable.

[Edited 2009-12-22 10:04:54]

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25455 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15879 times:
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Quoting LU9092 (Reply 15):
It may not be intended to seem coercive, but in an environment where people know their job could disappear at any time according to decisions made by the CEO, it could very easily seem that way.

If you have any evidence that this CEO has done anything even remotely destructive to any employee - solely because of religious views - please present it.

Quoting LU9092 (Reply 15):
The business could be run with the exact same values, just without a religious label attached, and be just as successful without making anyone uncomfortable.

Perhaps it could.

But - once again - this is what propels Mr. Bedford. It is his choice - his freedom of speech - to run his company this way, and his BOD seems happy.

If someone's non-coerceive expression of their faith offends you, then you have equal freedom, and you seem already to have made your choice.

By bringing a public discussion of his faith into this, you are doing the same as he.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineLU9092 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 72 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15877 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 14):
Meanwhile, back to religion, I guess. If we must.

No one is coercing you to participate!  Wink


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1325 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15851 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 14):
I don't see how you can compare this to Delta and Northwest. Both were in infinitely better shape than Midwest was when this process began.

That was a response to my comment comparing the status of the mergers etc...

Quoting LU9092 (Reply 15):
The business could be run with the exact same values, just without a religious label attached

Bedford's religious faith is what symbolizes, and highlights those values, that is why he made it a point to make it an integral part of the business. I am not Catholic, and not the most religious person you will come across, but I still have no problem with this.

The argument you are making seems synonymous with those saying:
--The president should never mention God.
--Take God off our currency.
--Take God out of our pledge.
--Take the Ten Commandments away from courthouses.
--Fire Teachers for using the word God.
and on and on...


Simple fact is, that God is popular in this country, and for the few employees he will offend with his practice of faith, he will please many many more.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25455 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15854 times:
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Quoting LU9092 (Reply 17):
No one is coercing you to participate!

No, they are not. I choose to do so.

Just as Mr. Bedford is not coercing anyone. He chooses to express his faith. You choose to express his offense at that.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineLU9092 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 72 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15823 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
If you have any evidence that this CEO has done anything even remotely destructive to any employee - solely because of religious views - please present it.

I don't believe I've implied that he has. This is more about perception and feelings, which I realize is a big gray area. Anyway, I just wanted to express an opinion in a forum where such expression is encouraged. A company memo is something else entirely.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17681 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15819 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
this is who Mr Bedford is and this is the way he wants to run his company.

This is symbolic of what is wrong with his leadership. It's not the religion so much as the "this is how I do it and I'm not listening to anyone else", and that message seems to be the loudest one communicated to the new acquisitions.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 9):
For all comparisons, this is seeming to me to be one of the better managed mergers I have seen.

Perhaps on the front lines, but even there I don't think anyone knows exactly what they're doing and for whom. But in the back offices at YX and F9 I think the climate is quite different; if that matters remains to be seen since few of them will have jobs in the long term.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25455 posts, RR: 86
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15806 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
It's not the religion so much as the "this is how I do it and I'm not listening to anyone else", and that message seems to be the loudest one communicated to the new acquisitions.

Most CEO's tend to say that. Or I would hope they do.

But what he recently - and accurately - said about Milwaukee seems much, much louder than this.

 Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineLU9092 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 72 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15793 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 18):
The argument you are making seems synonymous with those saying:
--The president should never mention God.
--Take God off our currency.
--Take God out of our pledge.
--Take the Ten Commandments away from courthouses.
--Fire Teachers for using the word God.

That's precisely the argument I'd make, except for teachers at a private school. I am aware that no candidate unwilling to mention god will ever be elected in this country, so I suppose that first one is hard to argue. There are things in our society I disagree with, but I'm glad to live somewhere it's just dandy to disagree.

[Edited 2009-12-22 10:36:41]

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17681 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15744 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Most CEO's tend to say that. Or I would hope they do.

If they want their employees to instantly unionize, that's a good way to do it. This especially applies to a company like Republic, that has never run a mainline carrier before, and where many of the employees may not be well versed in the differences between mainline and regional business.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15723 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 14):
Grind that axe.

I don't see how you can compare this to Delta and Northwest. Both were in infinitely better shape than Midwest was when this process began.

Mariner you have no clue to the sh*t storm that is going on behind the scenes do you? Republic's contract calls for one seniority list so we are talking about potentially merging 4 lists (F9, RAH, YX, and Lynx).

Midwest pilots and FAs will most likely be stapled to the bottom of the RAH list since they are all furloughed and that is what traditionally happens to the furloughed in mergers. If some of them actually decide to stay on then you will have former 20-25 year Midwest Captains sitting right seat next to 2-3 year RAH FOs turned Captain. I'm sure they will be all smiles collecting their $37 an hour pay checks sitting next to someone half their age.

If there actually is a "fair and equitable" merger then you will have a ton of RAH FOs furloughed and RAH captains displaced. Don't worry though they will all be smiles too.

We haven't even gotten to F9 and Lynx yet and we are already having so much fun!
Republic's contract calls for one seniority list but F9 pilots and FAs will want to keep things separate to protect their quality of life and career expectations. RAH pilots of course want to get into the Airbus and make more money. That will create tension and bitter feelings for whichever airline's labor group loses out in the process. Also if F9 has anyone still furloughed when/if integration is being done they too will most likely end up stapled just like the furloughed Midwest crews (assuming this integration follows history).

Oh and then there is Lynx, that is another seniority list thrown into the mix.

Anyway you look at it one or more or most likely all labor groups will end up bitter because there is the possibility of displacement, furloughs, and domicile relocations if RAH wins and everyone is integrated.

If F9 wins and they maintain separate lists then you have set yourself up for whipsaw. That'll make all the labor groups very bitter as Bedford decides who gets what in the future.


25 Lightsaber : But poor rabbit. To every one else: Many CEO's are quite religious! I agree with you. Note: In no way is Religion a hiring criteria at F9. That shoul
26 Mariner : I am, yes. I am watching someone do something unique. I am close to my biblical span and in all my life I have never seen anything worthwhile achieve
27 FRNT787 : Nothing I say on this issue is going to please you with regards to the labor, so I wont bother, other than to say this: RAH can quite easily, IMO, ha
28 LU9092 : I hope I am not perceived as being in that camp. I think that government and religion should never mix, and I think that the leader of a company shou
29 NorCal : You you said I had an axe to grind for this comment: I was just providing a logical explanation for my thoughts and showing that it has nothing to do
30 NorCal : For the sake of the thread I won't say anything else here, check your PM in a bit though
31 Mariner : I don't think anyone said it would be easy. Okay, a serious question. If Mr. Bedford - or any CEO - were gay, should they not tell anyone? Some would
32 LAXintl : Listen the man is a trained minister, and has strong convictions that God has played a central role with his personal and Republic's success all these
33 KingCavalier : I can't get my Chick Fil A on Sundays because they are a Christian company. It doesn't stop me from eating there the other 6 days. Another airline we
34 Slider : The Constitution does not protect you from feeling "uncomfortable." Grow a pair. Given the scandals, corruption, and outright lying, cheating, steali
35 TVNWZ : Offering God's blessing on you is pretty damn friendly in my book.
36 RussianJet : So the guy expresse his faith and you want to boycott the airline?? Shame on you for being so prejudiced.
37 Silentbob : I'd say his personal boycott is a lot more polite than the response would be if the CEO of an airline was an avowed atheist and made comments regardi
38 BMI727 : Whether you believe is works or not, perhaps you should just appreciate the gesture. He doesn't discriminate based on religion or anything like that,
39 Rcair1 : I would encourage you to study it (the bible) then - Christians are tasked to evangelize. That does not mean convert by force, as in some religions (
40 RussianJet : What on earth are you basing such a supposition on??
41 LU9092 : I wouldn't expect it to, and I'm not the one who is uncomfortable. I was referring to the sentiments of some Frontier employees as mentioned in the a
42 LU9092 : I would agree with Silentbob that an expression of atheism in a company communication would stir much more controversy, in the US anyway, than the op
43 Mariner : Now that's fair enough, and I can accept that. I just have a problem when honesty about oneself is seen as a liability. mariner
44 JpetekYXMD80 : In a lot of my experience, those who parade their faith around and tout their personal intergity.... have a very good chance of turning out to be the
45 Mariner : Speak as you find. And I have found Mr. Bedford to be plain-speaking honest. I do not agree with all he says. His thoughts on porn made my laugh out
46 JpetekYXMD80 : I wasn't speaking about Bedford specifically. I just found the comment that because BB is a bible-thumper and touter of how great his integrity is, t
47 Fleet Service : Talked to any Midwest crew lately? I'm sure they have a different take on Mr.Bedford's "Integrity".
48 Sancho99504 : You could add our constitution to that as well, which was founded and based on biblical readings. Saying you won't fly an airline because the CEO "pr
49 Mariner : When has he claimed that? I don't think I have ever claimed to be better than anyone else. Do you have a link? Mostly he says we are all, all, made i
50 JpetekYXMD80 : I am not talking about Bryan Bedford!! I quoted and responded to the post by Slider, and that is what i am continuing to refer to. Probably have a go
51 Mariner : My same thoughts apply and this is a thread about Bryan Bedford. I know that to be true. He's a businessman, he will always offend some people. But i
52 Atomsareenough : Even in that situation, wouldn't the problem be the unwanted advances, and not the gayness? I certainly sympathize with the idea that outward religio
53 DLDTW1962 : Don't we have more pressing issues to deal with then who is and who is not say the word God or talks about religon in the work place? To each his own.
54 Jeffrey1970 : You could flip that situation around and say that if a CEO purposely avoids God, that he/she might coerce there employees not to be religious. I do n
55 AvConsultant : God has been very popular in the United States since our founding as a Nation. Given the Declaration of Independence creation was centered around Jud
56 Evomutant : Yawn. As an atheist, I really don't care if he chooses to fill his head with fairytales, as long as it doesn't effect me in any way. And it doesn't.
57 NorCal : Legitimate good guy? Well he did just go back on his promise to provide flight benefits to furloughed Midwest pilots. He doesn't do right by his empl
58 Enilria : My bottom line is that I don't see how this public profession improves the company's earnings, but I can see lots of ways that it hurts it by unsettli
59 JpetekYXMD80 : Just gives special reason to highlight his hypocrisy. And yet another reason for this long time loyal YX flyer to realize its over. Just another airl
60 Mariner : If they were promised, then sue him. mariner
61 Enilria : Frankly, I have always been a little confused why Frontier and Midwest have been so much more beloved on a.net than AirTran. AirTran is also an under
62 Post contains links Mariner : The Airtran pilots aren't all that happy with their airline, either: http://www.wisn.com/news/21987754/detail.html "Air Tran Pilots Picket Outside Ai
63 NorCal : Weren't you the one complaining about going OT in these threads?
64 Mariner : You used Christian iconography - Christmas. You brought it up as a stick to beat Mr. Bedford. On the surface - and only on the information provided b
65 AirFrnt : Fiar enough. But your preference to avoid religion doesn't mean that everyone else needs to adopt your Weltanschauung. You can certainly refuse to fl
66 JpetekYXMD80 : Maybe if he actually practiced what he preaches, and not just bullshitting us with how righteous he is.
67 Nwafan20 : I'm sorry, but I may be in the minority but I applaud Bedford for having the faith and strength to talk about his faith at the workplace. It takes a l
68 NorCal : So Bedford and Republic going back on an agreement it signed with the YX union is somehow the union's fault? So should we just ignore it? And why did
69 JpetekYXMD80 : It doesn't take strength to talk about it, it takes strength to apply all your so called values to the workplace. Might have to work on that one...
70 Mariner : I don't understand what you mean by that, but why is it all on him? It takes two to tango, always. mariner
71 AirFrnt : Sorry Norcal, I have been following the YX/F9/RJET stuff in detail, and I have to argue with your interpretation here. There is no question that the
72 BMI727 : Do we have any evidence that Bedford's openness about his religion actually drives away customers?
73 AirFrnt : Again, the people taking potshots at BB right now, are those that want him to act in a way that is counter to his interests - hire on the ex-YX emplo
74 Mariner : If there is any written agreement here and he is reneging on it, then sue him. If there is no written agreement - on anything - then there should. Bu
75 AirFrnt : Perhaps, at the end of the day, we are more then just the value we provide for the investors? Just a thought. Merry Christmas.[Edited 2009-12-22 21:3
76 Mariner : I didn't. Someone else did - post #59 - to which I responded. mariner
77 NorCal : My post was in relation to Bedford and Republic promising furloughed YX pilots travel benefits for 2 years and then taking them away right before Chr
78 NorCal : I hope they sue the crap out of him. And you earlier lectured me about taking thing OT, so I find it rather ironic you do that but then respond to an
79 AirFrnt : I wouldn't say it's the unions fault. I would say that to a very large degree, the pilots brought this onto themselves. They have done everything the
80 Mariner : Okay. I don't have a problem with that. I have sued people and I have been sued. But just - do it. Take a positive action. You want to argue the toss
81 Justlump : So, I guess this is the wrong thread to wish everyone a 'Merry Christmas'?!!!
82 LU9092 : Absolutely. I hadn't noticed my wording implied the gayness and not the advances would be wrong. Thanks for catching me.
83 NorCal : Well considering the letter is dated yesterday I doubt the union has had much of a chance to prepare for court. Additionally maybe they want to see i
84 Mariner : The atmosphere has been poisonous between the two groups for some time. The Midwest pilots or their representatives have taken every opportunity they
85 LU9092 : I love the way you quoted about one third of my sentence, thus totally misrepresenting what I was trying to say. And where did I say "everyone else"
86 LU9092 : :D Thanks for the levity.
87 BMI727 : It is not something I would do, but I don't think that it has hurt or will hurt the business.
88 FRNT787 : This is the key, you clearly have a grudge (or something) against Bryan Bedford...and judging by your CEO comment, you probably hate every manager ou
89 WesternA318 : Look, I'm the last person on earth to stand up for ANYTHING involving Frontier, but I find no harm in what he's saying. If it helps, more power to him
90 Dfanucci : Add Mariner to that list, and I'll pick up the tab!! -D .... And I'm a buddhist!
91 AirFrnt : Loudly and vehemently attacked them in any public forum. (And by public forum, I mean newspapers, TV programs, written communication, etc). Insisting
92 ExFATboy : As long as Bedford's beliefs do not create a discriminatory environment in the company, I don't see his public statements as hurting F9...if anything,
93 AvConsultant : My firm was hired by TPG in 2008 to securing desperately needed funding for YX. Boeing was on the door steps to repossess the entire fleet. YX was op
94 Post contains links FATFlyer : B&H Photo had a discrimination suit filed against it last month. The plaintiffs claim religion entered into the gender discrimination. Four women hav
95 Jetmatt777 : F9 definitely moved further up on my list. Will definitely try to fly on them more if I can, their fares are pretty good, and they offer a great produ
96 Post contains images Mariner :    Which may be what is missing from the debate, of from any appreciation of BB. I've never met BB - obviously, I'm a long way away - but when he f
97 AvConsultant : Absolutely!! Mariner, you are spot on!! Bedford is creating the next evolution in the airline industry. I remember when people laughed at ValuJet for
98 Atomsareenough : All three of those descriptors also apply to VX, by the way.
99 Post contains links Mariner : William Swelbar of MIT has this to say about it in his review of the year: http://www.swelblog.com/articles/swe...e-industry-news-items-of-2009.html
100 BMI727 : It would seem that Frontier is pretty tame as far as making religion part of flying. Royal Air Brunei plays a prayer before each flight and doesn't s
101 Enilria : There is somebody above in this very thread saying they won't fly them because of it. Absent that I guess you could request the Denver Post commissio
102 Mariner : LOL. More than a few a.netters have posted that they won't fly Southwest because of the cattle car boarding. Many a.netters insist they won't fly Rya
103 AvConsultant : RAH bought YX out of bankruptcy for $6M in cash. That's not weasel nor a bad businessman. That is nothing less than brilliant businessman ending a tu
104 Jawake : Being an ordained minister, I have found this thread very insightful and have seen some very good points made. I would offer this further perspective.
105 IndyWA : BB learned a few years ago not to flaunt his ideas around too freely. He put out a company letter (non-mandatory reading however) which was basically
106 Jeffrey1970 : I agree with you.
107 JpetekYXMD80 : How has God been incorporated into his business? Other than injecting his beliefs about religion in the workplace, how has God actually been incorpor
108 JpetekYXMD80 : Absolutely. There can be a big economic incentive to do so. Jesus is a lot cheaper to be a pitchman than Peyton Manning. And if anyone doesn't think
109 Lightsaber : I agree with what you said. However, MOL has shown a little controversy goes a *long* way for free publicity. Very maturely said. I appreciate you 'l
110 Post contains images Mariner : How is he flaunting his righteousness? If it were not for this article in the DP, most people would be completely unaware of it. To my knowledge, he
111 Jetjeanes : If you do not like the airline because of his beliefs dont fly them I dont think they will miss you But had he not stepped up to the plate you would b
112 Post contains images JpetekYXMD80 : Are those last 2 supposed to be sarcastic!?!          Midwest lost it's birds, lost its employees, and now is a remnant of that great airline i
113 BMI727 : Just as one full flight does not a profitable route make, I do not think that one A*netter's opinion makes up a trend. I am sure that all of the worl
114 FRNT787 : Very true, and a sad fact indeed. It always shows a lack of logic and a proper argument in my opinion. Glad you agree I think this is an important po
115 Atomsareenough : What does that mean? A holiday is a holiday. You could give me Bastille Day off and I would enjoy it. I already get a day off for Columbus Day, which
116 Mariner : Sure they are aware of it. He explained it, very carefully and clearly, in his introductory email to the Frontier staff. He has also made the point t
117 NASCARAirforce : As long as the Rabbit's foot didn't come from "Stu" or "Jack" Here I thought that we were going to read about Frontier Airlines employees being layed
118 LU9092 : It seems that a little humor and grace goes a long way toward smoothing over the differences between people, even big ones like religion, race, or se
119 Post contains links KingCavalier : I thought this article was interesting with all of the religious talk in this thread. http://www.gouverneurtimes.com/st-la...ation-against-mesaba-sett
120 Mariner : One airline already does that - El Al - but in the US you would have the problem of deciding when "Sabbath" is. To Jews and Seventh Day Adventists, i
121 LU9092 : Awesome!
122 FATFlyer : It is not just airlines, but also retail stores, restaurants, etc. But companies need to attempt reasonable accomodation of religion within their bus
123 Jeffrey1970 : That is so very true. I can't physically prove that God has been incorporated at Republic Airways, but until proven otherwise I have to take the CEO
124 Crj200faguy : I appreciate the folks from Midwest and Frontier not wanting to be at the bottom of the senority list. However, if their companies went out of busines
125 KingCavalier : I agree. The President of the U.S. ends every speech with God Bless America. In God We Trust is on our money. Who cares?
126 Sancho99504 : I think with anything, there has to be compromise. A condition of employment in the airline industry is the availability to work any shift, day or ni
127 Mariner : The Indian family who run the little general store in the tiny village where I live are Hindu. There isn't a Hindu temple here - there isn't much of
128 Post contains links Qqflyboy : Just as the Constitution protects our freedom of speech, it also protects our freedom of religion, which includes freedom FROM religion. Practicing re
129 BMI727 : But wouldn't this violate freedom of religion, if for example, a Muslim man were not allowed to pray periodically throughout the day? It doesn't seem
130 Qqflyboy : I'm not sure what that has to do with Mr. Bedford referring to God in company emails/hotlines/bulletins and embedding a reference to him in the compa
131 Post contains links JpetekYXMD80 : Certainly what he has said goes beyond sharing faith or talking about how his faith influences him, these comments really indicate it has a great deal
132 Mariner : Yet those pilgrims "escaping oppression" oppressed Roger Williams in Massachusetts because he did not hold the majority religious view. Among his "si
133 FRNT787 : Honestly, that is like me avoiding a store because their commercials say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"... Side note, it is grotesquel
134 JpetekYXMD80 : Read the quotes from what i posted. That is a hell of a lot further than being open about who he is.
135 Braniff747SP : Who cares, we have "In God we trust" On every single piece of US currency.
136 Mariner : I don't see that. To a very real extent, a company reflects the personality of the person who runs it. I have seen dreadful things said and done to s
137 Flybyguy : I don't see anything wrong with Bryan Bedford being a devout and faithful Catholic, but I doubt that running a multi-billion dollar business and relig
138 FRNT787 : It has been for years. This is most certainly not new, and not even new at Republic. Thankfully, RAH has an absolutely amazing safety record anyone w
139 Post contains links Mariner : Just off the top of my head - JetBlue - David Neeleman - Mormon? http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-10-08-jetblue-ceo.htm USA Today: "He's
140 Airfrnt : The classic "Freedom from Religion" (a very militant group that opposes any expression of religious faith in public) quote. You deliberately avoid th
141 TUIflyer : I suppose that as long as religion is not been forced on anyone it is just about OK, although I find it a little weird but thats just my opinion, I be
142 AirFrnt : Somethings never change. This is part of the reason Europe and America have never seen eye to eye, from America's founding on.
143 Post contains links Mariner : Hmmm. Are there not towns in the UK that ban Christmas carols, for fear they might give offense to someone - even in the Parliament? http://www.mirro
144 TUIflyer : The US and EU get along better than most countries do with the US. Sure we have our political correctness brigade, but doesn't every country? My poin
145 TheCol : "I pray for God's continued blessings on our families and our airline." Big frigging deal. The guy was just tying to be sincere. Respect and tolerance
146 Mariner : If Willie Walsh said almost anything there would be a strike. And - again - if any CEO came out and said he was gya and was encouraging a gay friendl
147 TUIflyer : I don't find that particularly offensive, but as the op states some employee's have been, my only point is that I don't think that work and religion
148 Mariner : It's their airline, they can do whatever they want, as long as it is legal. I - born in British Palestine - have worked for companies run by Israeli
149 TUIflyer : It may be legal, but it doesn't mean it is right, or good for employee morale in any case. If you want to discuss religion/political matters fine, ju
150 Mariner : Once again, we have posts here from old Republic employees and new Frontier/Republic employees, who are not in any way offended by it and would let B
151 TUIflyer : Yes, but some are and just because they don't join A.net and say so doesn't mean to say there aren't. Although you say that people would let BB know
152 Mariner : And at least one of those "anonymous" (why shout?) sources has changed his mind. It was posted here, but people have a perfect right to be offended b
153 TUIflyer : That is tradition and besides parliament is not a company or business, the UK parliament also carries copies of other religious texts so that members
154 Mariner : Just as Mr. Bedford allows anyone else to pray to whatever God they want - or not, as the case may be. As did Mr. Neeleman at JetBlue. And why do you
155 Qqflyboy : You can be and do whatever you like, but in business, you must act prudently and respectfully -- with your employees, shareholders and customers in m
156 FRNT787 : Do you really think he cares??? He seems quite happy with the results he sees from his infusion of faith into the RAH culture. I fail to see how RAH
157 Qqflyboy : I'm glad Mr. Neeleman was brought up. I consulted a friend of mine who is a Jetblue employee, has been for seven years, and he doesn't recall ever he
158 FRNT787 : On that subject...war would happen with or without religion. The Spanish would have still torn through Central America, Hitler still would have found
159 Yx302 : Ive been following this thread since its begining. And as a former YX empoyee ,now a RAI employee these are some thoughts of mine. 1st of all, my cowo
160 TUIflyer : Exactly, no one is saying that him saying I am a Christian but making statements to his employees that are religiously motivated is wrong and could b
161 AirFrnt : Only someone from the EU would think that. Our relations with Japan, Canada, Mexico, Latin America, Africa and just about everywhere but the Middle E
162 TUIflyer : I would say the relationship with the UK is the best one the US has. TUIflyer
163 Mariner : Why should I? I try to be a good decent person - I don't always succeed, but I do try - and most of my work has a profound social impetus. I am used
164 Mariner : Absolutely, it is your prerogative. Who says it isn't? But at least, in this case, you know what Mr. Bedford believes and can make your choice accord
165 Windy95 : I spent a year at republic after a layoff from AA. The first Christmas letter from Bedford was surprising but well received by myself. No one at our
166 Qqflyboy : I said more peaceful, not peaceful. And you won't likely hear a word about it because those who dissent are likely to stay quiet about it. It's the i
167 Mariner : Even if that were true, it don't amount to a hill of beans. Until the shareholders and the Board of Directors ask Mr. Bedford to leave, it is his com
168 LAXintl : As I have said before. If you don't like the corporate culture at Republic, or think the company is too over the top with religion then dont work ther
169 BOACCunard : My opinion as an atheist who is tolerant of religion: Bedford talking about his importance of his religion to him personally is absolutely OK. I'd not
170 Mariner : Way to go to twist it. You are insinuating that Mr. Bedford is imposing his religious views on others or asking them to share those views. So: The co
171 BOACCunard : No, I'm saying that the company appears to have an official religious position. It's not, "I believe all my employees were created by God" (benign),
172 Mariner : He is the CEO. He is free to make it whatever company he wants it to be, with the approval of the BOD and the shareholders. And no one can accuse him
173 BOACCunard : Sure. I just disagree with the characterization that Republic is merely a company with an openly religious CEO. It's an openly religious company, whi
174 Mariner : So I can't see the problem. mariner
175 146CREW : A republic employee sent this christmas memo out from BB. Judge for yourself. Christmas Letter for 2009 From: Bryan Bedford December 29, 2009 It is no
176 Mariner : Judge not least ye be judged? To me, it seems entirely appropriate for a committed Christian to say at Christmas. mariner
177 Enilria : But to your employees it is HIGHLY unusual. To your parishioners it is pretty typical. I'm starting to think that not only is he religious, he is the
178 JpetekYXMD80 : Exactly. That wasn't a Christmas letter to employees, that was a sermon. It was unfocused, self-indulgent blather with half-hearted attempts of relat
179 Mariner : I'd love to sit next to him on an aircraft. I'd love to pick his brain. This non-believer enjoys conversations with intelligent believers, whatever i
180 BMI727 : It isn't something I would write, but it doesn't strike me as over the top. For the most part he seems to be taking biblical themes and applying them
181 JpetekYXMD80 : Are you kidding? He compares preparation for a flight to religious preparation.
182 Mariner : Yes. I still don't see that has much to do with airline "business." I thought he was talking about the importance of preparation in life and doing it
183 JpetekYXMD80 : Do you really think the point of that letter was so his employees better 'understand' him. I've listened to a lot of what you've said on here, and th
184 Mariner : If defending someone's right to talk the things they believe, who they are, makes me a "cheerleader," I hope you continue to see me as such. But I ca
185 Ridgid727 : I enjoy reading your perspective on many things, but your continual and never ending banter of placing Bryan Bedford and Sean Menke on god-like pedas
186 FRNT787 : It was a Christmas letter, thus he talked about Christmas, makes sense. As for him being a tool, there is no sense in indulging that terrible comment
187 JpetekYXMD80 : Oh, bull, you are defending no ones rights, as I am not trying to take rights away from anyone, nor is anyone else here. All i'm saying is I don't li
188 Mariner : I can't imagine what you expect me to say to that. A very great many people here were deeply offended, some were angry, when I defended Frontier back
189 Mariner : I may disagree with you but I don't recall ever denying your right to say it. If I have, and if you can show me where, i would immediately apologize.
190 Ridgid727 : No, not offended by it, actually kinda intrigued that someone actually come across as almost a worship-like attitude towards 2 airline officials.
191 Mariner : I suppose I could be - very mildly - offended that you would use religious symbolism in connection with me, but it doesn't bother me. I don't "worshi
192 JpetekYXMD80 : I would like to see something that made you 'defend someones right'. It's a clear insinuation that myself and others have tried to somehow take away
193 Mariner : I'm really confused now. I thought you said said that I was denying your right to say whatever you want? Your right to say whatever you want matters
194 BOACCunard : I think this is a highly inappropriate letter to send to employees of all faiths or no faith at all. I don't think he should have to hide his religion
195 Mariner : You mean - it's a bit much to put religion into a Christmas letter? mariner
196 JpetekYXMD80 : What is so confusing? I didn't say you were denying my right to say anything, it just seems the only 'rights' you cared about his your need to 'defen
197 Post contains images JpetekYXMD80 : Give us a break. That was a full blown sermon. This is not a Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays matter.. this is more evangelization. Don't worry, Br
198 Mariner : Idol? Oh, no. But there we go with the religious symbolism again. As to the rest, I thought it is generally called debate, where not everyone necessa
199 JpetekYXMD80 : Exactly, and thats fine. But.. What made you 'defend' his right? How was his right ever questioned or threatened? Best way to kill a debate is throw
200 BOACCunard : I think a letter the main point of which is promoting religion and emphasizing its importance and the necessity of believing in it is a bit much to s
201 Mariner : Read back on the thread. I did. mariner
202 FRNT787 : If you had truly followed his posts over the last few years, you would not say that. Mariner generally tries to "defend" Bedford and Menke against pe
203 JpetekYXMD80 : No, I will not. I asked you a question, now you claim to have gone back on found an answer, but insist on being difficult and giving me a little scav
204 FRNT787 : Are you not supposed to read threads before posting?
205 JpetekYXMD80 : I have 20 replies in this thread, throughout this thread, so yes, I think i've read the thread... makes me wonder if you have yourself.
206 FRNT787 : By your definition of reading the thread, then quite obviously I have. For example, I responded to you calling Bryan Bedford a tool (and alluded to i
207 Mariner : Okay, don't. But obviously, I am not the only one who believes it to be there: mariner
208 BOACCunard : I'm glad he doesn't send out a letter like this every week, but I still think it's an inappropriate letter to send, even once a year. I don't think a
209 FRNT787 : And I completely respect your opinion on that. Honestly, it doesnt bother me in the slightest, because he does it in the form of a letter. Having the
210 JpetekYXMD80 : Saying someone shouldn't do something is violating their rights and liberties? No, it's an expressing an opinion on doing something. Example: Republi
211 BOACCunard : There is a very, very big difference between "should not be able to" and "should not."
212 FRNT787 : Saying, or insinuating someone should not be able to do something is an attempt at violating them. Example: You should not be able to use 9 rolling,
213 JpetekYXMD80 : What don't you get here? I said 'saying someone shouldn't do something', and you respond with a remark about 'someone shouldn't BE ABLE to do somethi
214 FRNT787 : Which is fine. What I was intending to respond to is that others have said, he should not be able to. I understand the difference between the two. An
215 FRNT787 : Yes, that is why I mentioned both. Some have insinuated (or flat out said) the second of the two, which is fine. Others have insinuated the first, wh
216 JpetekYXMD80 : Eh, just back to stuff about running his business with higher Christian values but going back on promises to YX pilots and now F9 staff. Look, I have
217 FRNT787 : I am glad you noticed, when I get into debates I can be a real ass, and have to step back to notice it sometimes. As to promises to F9 staff, they ar
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