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BA Remove European Business Class 22-24DEC.  
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7613 times:

Due to the weather conditions over the last few days both in London and across Europe, BA have made the decision to remove Club Europe from a number of european routes. The flights affected are those operating to & from London Heathrow ONLY from 22 December 2009 until the end of the operation on Thursday 24th December 2009. It is hoped by taking this action BA will manage clear the backlog of pax before christmas.

The CE cabin has been removed from all shorthaul flights with exception of those flights to ATH, DME, IST, KBP, LED, OTP, SOF and TIP.

BA use converter seats in it's Club Europe cabin which means they can be configure it's shorthaul fleet into a 1 class cabin configuration. This in turn will provide a significant number of additional seats on BA's routes out of LHR.

Pax originally booked in CE will be given a £30 voucher at the airport as immediate compensation and BA will reimburse the difference between their booking and Euro Traveller ticket on the same flight, once they have travelled.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17061 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7260 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Thread starter):
This in turn will provide a significant number of additional seats on BA's routes out of LHR.

Well exactly how many more pax will the be able to have on those flights?



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineVasu From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 3874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7238 times:

Seems fair enough... the immediate urgency is them getting to their destination at all... and they will be reimbursed

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30857 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7199 times:
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Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Well exactly how many more pax will the be able to have on those flights?

It opens up two additional seats per row, since the middles can now be occupied. Also, you free up any CE seats (window or aisle) not already sold due to the higher fare.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32689 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7199 times:



Quoting Vasu (Reply 2):
Seems fair enough... the immediate urgency is them getting to their destination at all... and they will be reimbursed

As long as the reimbursement puts those customers in the same position as if they had purchased the cheapest Y fare available on the date they booked their C fare, it's fair.



a.
User currently offlineEdina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 743 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7199 times:



Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Well exactly how many more pax will the be able to have on those flights?

An extra 2 seats per row........

A319s have the first 10 rows convertible, the A320 16 rows IIRC, the B757 18 rows, the A321 18 rows & the 767 25 rows.

The Club Europe/Business configs vary on every flight, with seats converted & cabin dividers moved each time if necessary.



Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
User currently offlineBALHRWWCC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6897 times:



Quoting Edina (Reply 5):
Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Well exactly how many more pax will the be able to have on those flights?

An extra 2 seats per row........

A319s have the first 10 rows convertible, the A320 16 rows IIRC, the B757 18 rows, the A321 18 rows & the 767 25 rows.

The Club Europe/Business configs vary on every flight, with seats converted & cabin dividers moved each time if necessary.

The CE cabin size does differ from route to route.

On a A319 the max config can be up to 36C/77Y = 113 In all Y 132 seats = 19 extra
On a A320 the max config can be up to 64C/53Y = 117 In all Y 156 seats = 39 extra
On a A321 the config can be up to 69C/86Y = 155 In all Y 188 seats = 33 extra
On a B757 the config can be up to 72C/79Y = 151 In all Y 186 seats = 35 extra
On a B767 the config can be up to 134C/95Y = 151 In all Y 186 seats = 35 extra


User currently offlineEdina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 743 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6774 times:



Quoting BALHRWWCC (Reply 6):
The CE cabin size does differ from route to route.

I do believe that's what my post said.......  Wink

And the A319 is up to 40C, rows 1-10, or at least it was on my flight yesterday.....hard work with 2 crew working the cabin on a full Swiss flight, as this was yesterday.



Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6701 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
As long as the reimbursement puts those customers in the same position as if they had purchased the cheapest Y fare available on the date they booked their C fare, it's fair.

Well, if they fly then they have been put in the same position they would have been had they purchased the cheapest Y fare available on the day they booked their C fare!!!!!! What exactly are you looking for?


User currently offlineJER757 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6682 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 8):
Well, if they fly then they have been put in the same position they would have been had they purchased the cheapest Y fare available on the day they booked their C fare!!!!!! What exactly are you looking for?

I think what MAH4546 meant was that they should be reimbursed for the cheapest Y seat on sale the day they bought their C fare, as opposed to the most expensive Y seat normally on sale, which would mean the pax would effectively be out of pocket.

It seems a good move on BA's part, although it will surely p*ss off a few people originally booked in C.

I take it pax originally booked in C will still get use of the lounges etc?



Gale force fog... don't you love it?
User currently offlineStyles9002 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 526 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6563 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 8):
Well, if they fly then they have been put in the same position they would have been had they purchased the cheapest Y fare available on the day they booked their C fare!!!!!! What exactly are you looking for?

I interpret his post as meaning the forced downgrade reimbursement should be equal to the difference between the C-class fare paid and the least expensive Y-class fare the passenger was eligible for on the date of purchase, rather than simply the difference between the C-class fare paid and the unrestricted Y-class fare.

In reality, I don't know how BA could or would go about determining the least expensive applicable fare for those impacted, but perhaps they have some sort of application that can do it.



It is what it is.
User currently offlineTim222 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 5133 times:

I thought that the 763 was 252Y in an all ET config... only coz I did domestics on the 767 with that config

User currently offlineFlycro From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

Not that I am a BA fan, but surly if LHR could deal with 6cm's of snow none of this would have happened. Why can't the UK deal with winter weather?
If I ran an airline i'd be suing the airports for gross incompetance.


User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 3417 times:



Quoting Flycro (Reply 12):
Why can't the UK deal with winter weather?

There is little investment for it because it is relatively rare at LHR.


User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 3403 times:



Quoting Flycro (Reply 12):
Not that I am a BA fan, but surly if LHR could deal with 6cm's of snow none of this would have happened. Why can't the UK deal with winter weather?
If I ran an airline i'd be suing the airports for gross incompetance.

The UK cant deal with winter weather because the equipment that helps deal with the weather (snow ploughs, more de-icing equipment etc) is too expensive to consider buying when most of the equipment is only needed once or twice a year.

Another reason is the fact that LHR is one of the busiest airports in the world and it only, unless really exceptional circumstances, uses one runway for take-off and one for landings. This really restricts the aircraft flow into LHR under normal circumstances and when bad whether hits it effects it even more. Mixed mode would help but Im not even sure if its allowed such weather.

I know on Tuesday LHR was down to a flow rate of 28 aircraft per hour for landings when its normal rate is roughly 45. You can imagine the chaos this causes to a major slot holder like BA



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 3385 times:



Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 14):
I know on Tuesday LHR was down to a flow rate of 28 aircraft per hour for landings when its normal rate is roughly 45. You can imagine the chaos this causes to a major slot holder like BA

Tell me about it!!!!
2 years nearly at LHR and have never seen anything like it.
Some staff were really dreading work (me included) because it was NON stop Q's everywhere with cancelled flights seeming to come out of everywhere!!

Thank god the op seemed to be near normal today, with only a little light rain and a cold wind blowing down here.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7459 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 3321 times:



Quoting Flycro (Reply 12):
Not that I am a BA fan, but surly if LHR could deal with 6cm's of snow none of this would have happened. Why can't the UK deal with winter weather?

There was, of course, disruption at LHR. Where you have a slot-bound airport like LHR you cannot close a runway to clear the snow without causing some disruption and delays. Indeed the only way to avoid such delays would be not to clear the runway which, of course, would be totally unacceptable.

However disruption elsewhere was much worse. For example in the thread

More BA Widebodies On Shorthaul (by Alasdair1982 Dec 22 2009 in Civil Aviation)

the substitution by BA of 744s and 772s specifically on the LHR-CDG and LHR-GVA routes has been because of the closure of CDG and GVA and not because of the disruption at LHR.

In summary if LHR has to "deal with" any depth of snow disruption is inevitable unless it starts snowing after 23.30 hours and stops by 05.00 hours when it can be cleared during the night curfew. Simply speaking snow ploughs and arriving or departing aircraft on the same runway is not a healthy mix.


User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 3261 times:



Quoting Styles9002 (Reply 10):
I interpret his post as meaning the forced downgrade reimbursement should be equal to the difference between the C-class fare paid and the least expensive Y-class fare the passenger was eligible for on the date of purchase, rather than simply the difference between the C-class fare paid and the unrestricted Y-class fare.

There is actually no reason whatsoever why the reimbursement should be the difference between the C fare paid and the lowest applicable Y fare on the date of purchase.....that would be a complete travesty. Had the pax purchasing the C fare wished to book the lowest fare in Y, he could have simply done so and it was an entirely a matter of choice Why should he now be given the lowest applicable fare on the aircraft on that particular date? He obviously chose the flexibility of a C fare, so quite correctly he should only receive reimbursement to an unrestricted Y fare.

Quoting Styles9002 (Reply 10):
In reality, I don't know how BA could or would go about determining the least expensive applicable fare for those impacted, but perhaps they have some sort of application that can do it.

Well, it's pretty straightforward to determine any fare on any given day past, plus the exact time any fare was available to purchase, and I can do it in mere seconds. However, as stated, any applicable fare was available to the pax at that particular time.......they had complete freedom to choose it.


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 3139 times:
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Quoting Styles9002 (Reply 10):
I interpret his post as meaning the forced downgrade reimbursement should be equal to the difference between the C-class fare paid and the least expensive Y-class fare the passenger was eligible for on the date of purchase, rather than simply the difference between the C-class fare paid and the unrestricted Y-class fare.

In reality, I don't know how BA could or would go about determining the least expensive applicable fare for those impacted, but perhaps they have some sort of application that can do it.

they'd have to check the fares on every ticket, not sure if their system can do that on it's own or if it would take a human being to physically pull up every affected reservation, check the ticket issue date and the fares available for that day to find the appropriate fare. I suspect they'll simply subtract the difference between the C fare and the full Y, much easier and less time consuming.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2190 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 3103 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 16):
the substitution by BA of 744s and 772s specifically on the LHR-CDG and LHR-GVA routes has been because of the closure of CDG and GVA and not because of the disruption at LHR.

GVA airport wasn't closed. So not quite sure what you are alluding to here.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6741 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2918 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 17):
Why should he now be given the lowest applicable fare on the aircraft on that particular date? He obviously chose the flexibility of a C fare, so quite correctly he should only receive reimbursement to an unrestricted Y fare.

The flexibility of the C fare isn't necessarily why the passenger purchased that particular fare; the passenger might have chosen to purchase a C fare for the product he or she expected to receive and which BA has now failed to deliver.

It's as if one had negotiated to purchase a Mercedes and at delivery time the dealer substituted a Lada -- but offered to pay the difference between the Lada's "list price" and the negotiated price for the Mercedes. They're both still cars.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7459 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2863 times:



Quoting Runway23 (Reply 19):
GVA airport wasn't closed. So not quite sure what you are alluding to here.

Sorry. I should have been more explicit.

BA cancelled flights to GVA because of the weather there over the weekend and subsequently operated BA740/741 on 23 December and BA732/733 on 24 December with a 220 seat 772 to help clear the resulting passenger backlog.


User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2763 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
BA cancelled flights to GVA because of the weather there over the weekend and subsequently operated BA740/741 on 23 December and BA732/733 on 24 December with a 220 seat 772 to help clear the resulting passenger backlog.

A lot of the extra capacity on CDG and GVA was also needed because of a back log of passengers who had missed connections on previous days due to delays at US airports and also Heathrow having to contend with snow and then freezing fog.


User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2737 times:



Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
The flexibility of the C fare isn't necessarily why the passenger purchased that particular fare; the passenger might have chosen to purchase a C fare for the product he or she expected to receive and which BA has now failed to deliver.

It's as if one had negotiated to purchase a Mercedes and at delivery time the dealer substituted a Lada -- but offered to pay the difference between the Lada's "list price" and the negotiated price for the Mercedes. They're both still cars.

Interesting 'rebuttal'.....but quite nonsensical! Yeah, the chances are very high that the reason someone chose the C fare, if not for it's flexibility, was because someone else paid for the ticket.
So, let's look at your opinion of purchasing for the product which you allege BA failed to deliver. In which case, could you then explain to me how reimbursing to the lowest fare on the aircraft would have altered delivery of the product allegedly paid for considering the aircraft didn't even fly? As I said, had the pax wanted the lowest applicable fare it was freely available for him/her to purchase? Interesting that you very pointedly claim that BA "failed to deliver".....could you please explain to me how they could have when the flight was canceled due to horrific weather? Let's get real here. May I point out, and which you are obviously ignoring, is that the C fare is reimbursed plus compensation. As for your cars....what on earth are you talking about, or what point are you attempting to make with such a nonsensical 'comparison'?????

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 18):
they'd have to check the fares on every ticket, not sure if their system can do that on it's own or if it would take a human being to physically pull up every affected reservation, check the ticket issue date and the fares available for that day to find the appropriate fare. I suspect they'll simply subtract the difference between the C fare and the full Y, much easier and less time consuming.

Any GDS can easily do it within seconds, as I previously said, but it will still require human intervention to pull up each particular reservation. However, reimbursement between C and full Y would be the correct, and most appropriate way of dealing with it.


User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Apologies....on my above post, please ignore my reference to where I stated the aircraft didn't fly. I was inadvertently thinking of another thread about cancellations which I accidently wrote that but I can't seem to amend it.

User currently offlineMilesDependent From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (4 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2636 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 23):
So, let's look at your opinion of purchasing for the product which you allege BA failed to deliver. In which case, could you then explain to me how reimbursing to the lowest fare on the aircraft would have altered delivery of the product allegedly paid for considering the aircraft didn't even fly? As I said, had the pax wanted the lowest applicable fare it was freely available for him/her to purchase? Interesting that you very pointedly claim that BA "failed to deliver".....could you please explain to me how they could have when the flight was canceled due to horrific weather? Let's get real here. May I point out, and which you are obviously ignoring, is that the C fare is reimbursed plus compensation. As for your cars....what on earth are you talking about, or what point are you attempting to make with such a nonsensical 'comparison'?????

What they will do is:
* As you suggest, refund the difference between full C and full Y. Most of the pax would be travelling for work and no doubt will be annoyed, but will have bigger things on their mind. No doubt a lot of pax travelling using points around this time of year in C class (much better availability as there is less business travel)... these travellers will no doubt receive the points difference, and will have to accept that.

* For the minority of full fare paying pax who demand more, BA will cave in a flash and refund close to the entire ticket price. Not worth aggravating full fare paying C pax over a couple hundred pounds.


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