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Ryanair To Stop Domestic Flights In Italy  
User currently offlineJanmnastami From Italy, joined Apr 2008, 828 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 20438 times:

Ryanair will stop domestic Italian flights from January 23 at 10 airports as a consequence of a dispute with Italian aviation authority ENAC over admitted ID documents.

ENAC ordered airlines to accept driving licenses, government badges and fishing and hunting licenses as identifications documents for domestic fligths.

Ryanair says that these documents reduce security on Italian flights and ENAC replied this measure is based on a law passed in 2000 and that all other carriers respect it.

Italy is FR's second market after the UK. FR in Italy has a market share of 19%.


Source: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9CP6HS80.htm

[Edited 2009-12-23 23:36:23 by Diamond]

213 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 20303 times:



Quoting Janmnastami (Thread starter):

ENAC ordered airlines to accept driving licenses, government badges and fishing and hunting licenses as identifications documents for domestic fligths.

Well if North America allows it, I don't see how it can be any worse in Italy.

I didn't even know this law existed in Italy. Is this also a common trend in other European countries? Does this rule apply only to intra Italy flights or can a driver's license be used to travel intra Schengen?


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 3034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 20276 times:

When will Ryanair learn that their little ga,mes do come back to bite them in the behind (eg. CEOS comments about 'raping' Boeing on the original 737 deal).

Their actions hurt their customers who are booked on the services and the contant threats really do go too far. There should be some sort of safeguards to stop such militant actions. he airline really does act like a spoilt child and hopefully one day customers and governments stand up to this and tell them to move on.


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 20256 times:

My Italian ID looks like it was made it someone's basement (close actually in the little town I am a "resident" of). The normal Italian IDs are not that "secure". The new EU card style DL is actually more secure (and easier to carry) than my carta!


“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1821 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 20245 times:

FR sort of shoot themselves in the foot. Money lost from this will be huge. In a way i can see where they are coming from. I dont think you should be able to board an aircraft on a hunting license etc, even if it is domestic. I think they have over reacted though. As someone else posted, why loose a 19% market share over this.


Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineAirblue From San Marino, joined May 2001, 1825 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20122 times:



Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 1):
I didn't even know this law existed in Italy. Is this also a common trend in other European countries? Does this rule apply only to intra Italy flights or can a driver's license be used to travel intra Schengen?

You could use these document ONLY on domestic flights, if you fly from Italy to UE you need the National ID Card or Passport.


User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20048 times:
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Quoting Janmnastami (Thread starter):
Ryanair says that these documents reduce security on Italian flights

It has nothing to do with security - if it was, every airline would be required to do it.


User currently offlineMyt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 70
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 19865 times:



Quoting Danfearn77 (Reply 4):
In a way i can see where they are coming from. I dont think you should be able to board an aircraft on a hunting license etc, even if it is domestic

I do. I don't even show ID when travelling domestically on BA, BMI etc unless I put a bag in the hold and even then, with BMI, they didn't even check it on my flight the other week.



One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1821 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 19840 times:



Quoting Myt332 (Reply 12):
I do. I don't even show ID when travelling domestically on BA, BMI etc unless I put a bag in the hold and even then, with BMI, they didn't even check it on my flight the other week.

I agree with that because i regularly fly BD MAN-LHR and i dont think i have shown my passport once. But i think thats pretty bad. In this day and age you should have to show some kind of identification, and a shooting/hunting licence is a bit weak for me! Just my opinion.



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineVARIG MD-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 19771 times:

So if Italian authorities wish to implement a regulation on their territory, they're not allowed to do it because it goes against Cryanair policy?

And the only solution found is to hold hostage customers who have bought a ticket and to tell them hypocritically "we're sorry"....

The truth here is that this horrible airline is using its favorite blackmail tactic to obtain what they want.
They did it at other airports and countries, for other purposes
Except now we're not even sure what the security risk is, since it fits the national authority dealing with it in the first place!!!!!!
I guess Ryanair wants to position itself as a reference in security and as a model airline....yeah right



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User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12598 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 19763 times:

I don't see what FR's game is here; the regulator sets the standard of acceptable documentation and the airline obeys; full stop. If FR wants to throw its toys out of the cot - and throw away a very lucrative market, sure, be like that. I hope the ENAC doesn't give an inch.

User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3716 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19644 times:



Quoting Janmnastami (Thread starter):
fishing and hunting licenses as identifications documents for domestic fligths.

I guess I'm the only one surprised that fishing and hunting licenses are allowed on domestic Italian flights.  eyepopping 



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11718 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19635 times:

Quite often when I travel in the UK all I have to show is a bank card, no photo ID or anything. Do I feel less secure because of it? Well of course not - if you're going to go to the trouble of hijacking/bombing etc... a flight then you can probably get your hands on some fake ID as well.


...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3716 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19536 times:



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 18):
when I travel in the UK all I have to show is a bank card, no photo ID or anything.

Just any bank card or the bank card that you used to purchase the ticket?



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineGroobster From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19383 times:



Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 20):
Just any bank card or the bank card that you used to purchase the ticket?

Thats right, but even then thats only if you need to print out a boarding pass at the airport.

I travel regularly between MAN and LHR (BA and BMI) and cannot remember the last time I was asked for any form of ID other than my boarding pass.

Strangely enough I flew from DUB to MAN last week and was bussed straight to baggage collection, never passed through any passport control of any sort! - Ironically a Ryanair flight.



Next flights: MAN-IST-AUH-MAN
User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 857 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19363 times:



Quoting Groobster (Reply 21):
Strangely enough I flew from DUB to MAN last week and was bussed straight to baggage collection, never passed through any passport control of any sort! - Ironically a Ryanair flight.

Why would you go through passport control?
Don't both Counties operate a open border, after all there
are no passport boarder points when travelling
between North and Southern Ireland.....



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9752 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19261 times:

For domestic travel in Germany, no ID is required. Check-in with the Bank card with which you bought the ticket and print your boarding pass at the kiosk or simply do that at home. Counter check -in, same , no ID required.

Tougher standards apply for drivers delivering cargo, an ID card or passport is required.

If FR pulls out of Italy domestic, the reason will be that they lost money in that market and now apply their usual BS tactic of blaming others. Somehow, all that adds up with the recent "walk-out" on the Boeing purchase.

Looks like the amount of masochistic passengers in Europe has its limit.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17996 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
If FR pulls out of Italy domestic, the reason will be that they lost money in that market and now apply their usual BS tactic of blaming others. Somehow, all that adds up with the recent "walk-out" on the Boeing purchase.

Looks like the amount of masochistic passengers in Europe has its limit.

 checkmark 

You're probably right
Because I don't know how on earth a private company has to blackmail/threaten a sovereign state due to a regulation it doesn't like



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User currently offlineBeagleboys From Italy, joined Jun 2006, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17660 times:

I can only be happy. I had the privilege to flight once with ryan. No more.

Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 11):
I guess I'm the only one surprised that fishing and hunting licenses are allowed on domestic Italian flights.   

those are relased by the italian Government. To obtain them you should go to the local police office(questura) and bring a document relased by the local tribunals that certify that you didn't commited any crime in your life and a birth certificate from your local administration. So, they are safe like your passport.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 3):
My Italian ID looks like it was made it someone's basement (close actually in the little town I am a "resident" of). The normal Italian IDs are not that "secure". The new EU card style DL is actually more secure (and easier to carry) than my carta!

Now you can ask for the new electronic id card that is similar to an american driving license



Nervous? Yes. First Times? No, I've been nervous lots of times. -Airplane!
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17481 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 17):
Because I don't know how on earth a private company has to blackmail/threaten a sovereign state due to a regulation it doesn't like

Why is it blackmailing? The ENAC changed the conditions that Ryanair need to comply with to operate domestic flights. Ryanair doesn't like the changed conditions. As a result, Ryanair doesn't want to do business anymore.

When my telephone company changes the conditions of my contract, and I decide not to renew my contract because of this changes, is it blackmailing?

Am I the only one who thinks that FR is right in complaining about it?

Ryanair wants a uniform procedure for identification, of course mostly for operational purposes: they have full web check-in, handling agents with different nationalities, and by having a standard set of allowed ID documents, they can work efficiently. They do not need to train their employees to correctly recognize hunderds of different identification documents throughout Europe. Instead, they choose to accept two very well-known types of documents: Passports and Identity cards.

Now, many countries (including the UK, Spain) allow carriers to accept other forms of documents, other than the standard ones. But here, FR decides not to use their right of accepting these documents. But in Italy, ENAC obliges FR to accept a series of documents. Evem though FR is very clear in stating that they accept a limited range of documents, which everyone is supposed to possess.

Of course, you cannot simply cover any demand in the T&C's. That's where consumer protection laws are made for. But then the single question is: is the demand issued by FR to present a national ID-card or passport at check-in, unreasonable? I think it's not unreasonable at all.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17462 times:

And about blackmailing: the ENAC threatens to imprison handling agents who refuse people presenting a fishing license at check-in to travel, despite of them having agreed to T&C which clearly indicate that an ID-card or passport is required.

Quote:
Ryanair does NOT accept driver licence, residence cards, family books, seaman books, Ministerial ID's, military ID cards, Italian AT/BT cards etc. Expired or damaged forms of photo-id will not be accepted on any flight.

So what is blackmailing? Putting handling agents in prisons, now that's something that upsets me.


User currently onlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1300 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17391 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
If FR pulls out of Italy domestic, the reason will be that they lost money in that market and now apply their usual BS tactic of blaming others. Somehow, all that adds up with the recent "walk-out" on the Boeing purchase.

Agreed. If they were making money they would not be dropping the flights.


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1908 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17383 times:
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Quoting Joost (Reply 19):

Am I the only one who thinks that FR is right in complaining about it?

No, no matter if this is FR, KL, AA or whoever, I think they should standardize this around the European Union to passport/EU ID as the only means of ID. Even on domestic flights. It's much easier to screen for authentic forms of ID if it is limited to these two only. More forms of ID makes for more opportunities to create a fake.

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25697 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17324 times:
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Quoting Joost (Reply 19):
Am I the only one who thinks that FR is right in complaining about it?

I'm with you. I'm also slightly shocked that any airline people would think Ryanair is wrong.

If a security botch happens and someone "undesirable" is let on the plane and starts making waves, the airline, and the airline crew, has to do deal any problems that might ensue.

Okay, so nothing may go wrong, maybe this Italian system will prove to be flawless, but a fishing license as i.d.?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17293 times:



Quoting Beagleboys (Reply 18):
Now you can ask for the new electronic id card that is similar to an american driving license

Not in my town, I just did a new card a month ago. Supposedly they will get it at some point and have to send off to Messina so they can process it. But then again my official residence is in a very small town north of Taormina that is old fashioned. Catania, Messina and Siracusa are issuing the new driver's cards though which I plan on getting next year.

There are plenty of other airlines in Italia that will take FR's money off the table.



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
25 Post contains links Beagleboys : Thats not true. Enac is not apolice force and will only signal the wrong behavior to the autority. Mr O'Leary as usally is making things bigger as th
26 FlyingSicilian : Why are no other airlines "taking their ball and going home"? As I noted above, the current Italian ID card is a piece of paper with the ID picture g
27 Mariner : I don't know. Ryanair has been first to do a lot of things. So maybe Ryanair may have been losing money in Italy and they may be simply taking their
28 FlyingSicilian : An ID does not equal any kind of security---AT ALL. ID does not = security. That is the feckless policy the TSA tries to state in the USA as well. Th
29 Mariner : It may not to you, but I, as a passenger, feel more comfortable with it. I have a problem passport, because of my birth country, and I am fully sympa
30 Woof : Of course it can add to security. What if that ID you hold identifies you as someone who was previously denied travel for making threats, or a thousa
31 FlyingSicilian : How so. Do you think the airline checks to see if "bad" people are on their airplane? Your boarding pass is more easily faked to match a real ID. Do
32 Post contains links Janmnastami : ENAC doesn't threaten to imprison anyone: ENAC declared that authorities will be informed of behaviours in violation of law. "Eventuali comportamenti
33 FlyingSicilian : So let me get this straight. You think that the EU is encoding their national IDs with past criminal histories, which you think the airline and gate
34 Woof : Yes, they are blacklisted by name. BUT, if I didn't need to show any form of photo ID, I just book my ticket under a false name, simples. Sure ID can
35 Mariner : That fact. It can easily go wrong, but I would rather see more security than less. Personally, I'd have a higher level of security. But I don't make
36 FlyingSicilian : If the person is screened completely and properly by security none of that matters. And I have flown many times with just hand luggage, and never sho
37 FlyingSicilian : Again, I ask you to tell us what about checking the ID provides security to anyone. We don't need more security, we need proper security. And that is
38 Mariner : Perhaps surprisingly, the US INS were extremely sympathetic about it. They suggested that they change my place of birth by a hundred miles to another
39 RussianJet : Well, with respect, unlike the guy I'm about to quote, you probably don't know much about Italian documentation. They are disgracefully unsecure docu
40 Woof : I am utterly dumbfounded. I'll keep my reasons to myself as it's Christmas Eve and I'm feeling particularly festive. What a ridiculous few sentences.
41 FlyingSicilian : You feel festive because I worked treaty requirements for 3 years with NATO? ok good for you. I hold citizenship in 3 countries, 2 by bloodright and
42 Woof : Which part didn't you understand? No, that part worries me. The festivities come from it being Christmas day tomorrow. Happy Christmas to you to. Eve
43 F.pier : I 'm sure Ryanair has good reasons to require ID cards or passports only. I think these should be the only documents accepted. Everybody knows I'm a b
44 FlyingSicilian : You don't bypass security with an ID. Everyone goes through security. No one is stopped now due to ID. Sorry you didn't figure that out. So you want
45 Janmnastami : Can you explain? There isn't any difference between an Italian passport or a French one and it's the same for driving licenses. The real problem coul
46 RussianJet : Italian ID cards (old style, paper) should be banned for all travel purposes. You may as well carry a library card for ID purposes. Probably more secu
47 F.pier : Italian old ID cards (still issued in the most of towns and cities) are not simply piece of papers because they have safety features similar to the on
48 PPVRA : The militant one here is you. You are the one promoting the use of force to stop something YOU don' like. Are you people kidding me? So WHAT if they
49 RussianJet : Indeed they do have some 'safety features'. However, they are poor-quality and easy to replicate. In comparison to most modern ID cards they are trul
50 Woof : Wrong I'm afraid. There have been posts just this year about VIPs bypassing security based on who their ID proclaims them to be. I would also expect,
51 Post contains images PPVRA : Because there's a big difference there, right?   They don't have to explain themselves to you or to anyone. Return the money back to the pax, pack u
52 Beagleboys : the same applies to most passport of the world. you can buy an american/uk/russian/kazakistan passport where you want. Printed on original papers. di
53 RussianJet : Of course any country's passports can and are forged, counterfeited or stolen. That's not the point. Italy has a serious problem with old-style ID ca
54 Janmnastami : Anyway, FR accepts Italian identity cards, the problem is with other documents .
55 BasilFawlty : Just bring your passport or your identity card with you when you are travelling, how hard can it be? It should be the international standard that you
56 Janmnastami : The problem is not with bank cards or library cards (nobody is saying these documents should be accepted), but with documents released by the governm
57 UALWN : No ID of any kind is required on German domestic flights. Do you feel insecure when you fly in Germany? Ryanair does not feel insecure! They just fee
58 Mariner : What is the problem? It's a free market. I'm not aware of any law that says Ryanair MUST fly within Italy. I seem to remember that the Italian govern
59 Janmnastami : I agree with you, FR isn't obliged to fly domestically in Italy and I agree also on the strangeness of fishing licenses as ID, but if FR wants to fly
60 Mariner : Maybe they've decided they don't want to fly in Italy domestically. Or maybe MOL has some quite different agenda, who knows? Maybe he's fishing for s
61 Avek00 : Those of you going on about Italian ID requirements have completely missed the REAL point as to why Ryanair is stopping Italian domestic flights. It c
62 AirNz : Why on earth would you show your passport LHR-MAN????? Hmmm! considering there is no Immigration Control between the United Kingdom and Republic of I
63 Janmnastami : And have they decided it after having started domestic routes from ten bases?
64 Mariner : I've no idea. Anything is possible. Until I know all the facts - or can see inside MOL's brain - I'm only speculating. But he always has a reason for
65 PPVRA : Of course, who possible else should decide? You? It's not your airline, you have no right. Yes. That's their problem. No they shouldn't. What's the p
66 PanHAM : TheT&C are null and void if they are against the laws in that country. You can sign anything, if your landlord tells you to sign that you cannot take
67 Lightsaber : I wonder if this is part of MOL's policy of fighting creeping costs. This ID law will have a cost for FR. The idea might be to keep other European cou
68 F.pier : This is only a thought but it seems to me that this can only be an excuse tu cut flights in a 2 weeks period of very poor passengers load. Maybe in th
69 Varig md-11 : What world are you living in? are you from Rondonia? The petty gvt agency does decide what is going on in their country, it's not up to a comercial f
70 Mariner : It is entirely up to that company to decide whether they to run domestic service in that country or not. Quite serious. It was issued by the INS. The
71 Varig md-11 : You're right but I was not commenting on the service itself but more on the way state rules are applied by the service provider It's like wen U2 was
72 UALWN : Absolutely. Not me, but the government of the country the airline operates in. The government sets the rules. FR may either accept them or leave. It'
73 Sflaflight : Well my Italian passport looks just like other passports worldwide. My Italian drivers license is modern and very ''North American'' since it is the
74 RussianJet : ......and? Had you read things through properly, you would know that the object of my fierce criticism is the old-style Italian national ID card, and
75 Mariner : I love to watch him work, to watch him "negotiate." I love the way he shakes things up, the way he ruffles feathers. I admire his chutzpah and he mak
76 PPVRA : Property IS sovereign control. It is not up to others to decide. This case is even worse, as there is absolutely no reason to force FR to do this. It
77 UALWN : Well, as I'm sure you very well know, it doesn't go like this. In this case, the Italian civil aviation authority has the power to force FR to accept
78 PPVRA : Yes indeed, they have the power. Doesn't make it right, does it?
79 UALWN : Yeah, FR would have the power. Wouldn't it make it right, would it?
80 PPVRA : Of course it would, they are defending what is theirs. Since when do you have a right to use other's property?[Edited 2009-12-25 15:16:00]
81 UALWN : Form the time you pay to use it. Look, FR doesn't have a God-given right to fly domestically in Italy. They have to do it according to Italian civil
82 PPVRA : That's a contract that allows you to use the airline, but they can (or should be able to) still rescind it before the flight (returning your money, o
83 UALWN : Exactly. Just like FR has permission to fly domestically within Italy if they abide by the local law. Otherwise...
84 PanHAM : You are totally wrong. The conditions of contract of any company must be in line with the applicalble laws of the country where they are doing busine
85 VARIG MD-11 : Thanks for supporting common sense view....or is it EU view against fazendeiro-far west view But I believe we deal either with a Ryanair militant or
86 RussianJet : Evidently so, seeing as that is precisely what they are doing.
87 Revelation : And in my opinion it's arrogant to presume Ryan is leaving because they are losing money and not because they are genuinely concerned about improving
88 UALWN : I think FR doesn't care a iota about "improving" identification procedures. They do care about making those procedures uniform across their operation
89 TUIflyer : Ryanair will do whatever they wish, they are a privately owned business and will act as such. I suspect though this is an excuse, FR won't as we are
90 Post contains links Mariner : Hmmmm? Ryanair have over 100 Boeing aircraft coming in over the next three years: http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/gen-en-181209 "Ryanair confirmed tha
91 TUIflyer : No doubt the a/c will be re-deployed to a new hub therefore creating even more opportunities for expansion when the new a/c come. TUIflyer
92 Mariner : That may well happen. I don't know what MOL's actual end-game is here, but I am interested to find out. mariner
93 TUIflyer : I think he probably just closes his eyes, sticks a pin in a map and then thinks of a number - it's that simple. I am of course joking, but it does ap
94 Mariner : Obviously, I can only agree because I have already made that point: mariner
95 TUIflyer : Tell me how this . . . is the same as: TUIflyer
96 Post contains links and images Beagleboys : wrong, they have to. For the italian law the paper ID card have to be Riveted, glued and dry stamped. Otherwise its not a valid italian ID. Trust me
97 Mariner : That we both agree how effective the Ryanair - or MOL's - PR department is. mariner
98 Varig md-11 : Sorry, I am going to be a smart#ss but this is not "the little house in the prairie" : MOL has appeared in the past to be motivated by € making and
99 Post contains images RussianJet : Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. It is FREQUENTLY seen issued otherwise. You can argue all you like, my own eyes and hands regularly experience it.
100 Evomutant : Who cares what an Italian ID card is like? It is completely irrelevent. Italian law dictates they are aceptable, FR does want to take them. They go th
101 RussianJet : Obviously some of us here do. You don't? Fine, you don't have to comment on that particular matter. To a large extent it is irrelevant in this topic,
102 Evomutant : That's fair enough. And FWIW, I agree that some of the documents that are deemed acceptable by the Italian Authorities are not worth the paper they a
103 Beagleboys : you know the difference from milan(mxp, Lin) and Bergamo (bgy)? it's 1 hour drive if you are lucky. If it's a normal working day you can take 3 hours
104 F.pier : STarnge that you Quite strange you put Mario Balotelli famous football player as an example...
105 Globeex : I would like to add something to this discussion and I don't know what the procedure is like in Italy, however I might suspect, that it is at least si
106 RussianJet : No, I'm not. I'm in something that require a far more detailed and routine knowledge of passports and ID cards, and the FACT is that there are many s
107 Beagleboys : I told you, i had an AOM, an electoral guide, and a State Officier that told me to reject those documents. I asked also to a friends that work here i
108 Mariner : Are they asking to be an exception? Presumably if it were changed it would affect all airlines. You think it would make one iota of difference to him
109 TUIflyer : FR are a loose cannon, but to be honest FR probably relish the fact they are so disliked and the fact their decisions are so controversial, it makes
110 RussianJet : Hallelujah. He finally gets the point.
111 Globeex : Well of course they do. Other airlines are doing it the way Italy demands it and FR doesn't want it this way. So for me they are asking for an except
112 Mariner : If the rule is changed, it can only be changed for everyone. Just because other airlines are following it now, that doesn't mean they have to follow
113 PPVRA : Only individuals can be sovereign. Infringing this is wrong. It happens all the time, but is wrong nonetheless.
114 PanHAM : Last I heard was that Brasil is a sovereign state and not a sovereign kingdom, your Majesty. The same applies for Italy. The lawmakers make the laws a
115 Mariner : I thought they were doing precisely that. mariner
116 Joost : But here we're talking about "may" and "must". The local law says a fishing license is a valid ID. But this can be interpreted in two ways: Airlines
117 777236ER : This is nonsense. Ryanair can of course demand that they see any form of ID they like. If they demand two bank statements, utility bills and passport
118 Joost : I wouldn't believe this immediately. True, FR is often blaming other parties for non-performing routes, most notably with their CRL-STN service. Howe
119 UALWN : This is your (libertarian) point of view. There are others. If the Italian Civil Aviation authority tells FR that they cannot demand an utility bill,
120 Joost : But they "cannot" is slightly different than the "can". (or "must", see my post). ENAC can of course revoke FR's license, and then FR can go to court
121 UALWN : Indeed there's nothing wrong with that.
122 Varig md-11 : To be honest I think about U2 because they fly from my home airport (CDG) and not a lousy in-a-middle-of-a-field aircamp (Beauvais) Yes in Mato Gross
123 Joost : I think I've described it Let's take two extremes (just imaginary examples): A. An airline doesn't want to take people over 70 years old. The governm
124 Burkhard : If the Italian government thinks that the fishing card is enough, ( Given the fact it is in the same ridicoulous security hype as most other governmen
125 RussianJet : Perhaps, though I very much doubt 'others' will be able to deploy onto as many routes and offering the same level of low fares. Love Ryanair or hate
126 Evomutant : Which makes you wonder if there is something more than just taking a stand behind this move. If they are so popular, and demand is so great (and I do
127 777236ER : But that's the reverse argument. The Italian NAA aren't telling FR they need to stop doing something, they're saying they should start to do somethin
128 Post contains links PPVRA : A "country" or the "Government" are entirely abstract concepts. Abstract concepts cannot "do" anything. Thus, it cannot be sovereign. You need indivi
129 PanHAM : It is really hard to understand. Again, any T&C which are not in conjunction with the laws of the country that a company is doing business in are null
130 RussianJet : That's fine. But surely a company is perfectly entitled to raise objections as it sees fit and if, as in this case, things don't look like they are g
131 PanHAM : Yes of course. Ryanair does not provide a public service, hence they are not obliged to provide airline service within Italy. The interesting point i
132 777236ER : You're wrong. The law of the land may be that ID can include fishing licenses. The airline can quite easily impose stricter requirements, on grounds
133 RussianJet : Surely that depends on whether they have viable and more hassle-free alternatives at their disposal.
134 PPVRA : A company cannot impose anything on its customers unilaterally(and vice versa for that matter), such a contract would be legally not binding. A contr
135 BrouAviation : Italy more and more continues to look like some bad regulated third-world banana republic. This exactly the kind of thing that should be regulated by
136 Post contains links Mariner : He isn't saying that. He's just ended negotiation for more aircraft and says that growth will be slowed. Yes, indeed: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/
137 UALWN : The requirement is unreasonable, but the airline cannot just ignore it! They can fight it in the courts, or leave. I hope they do it, if it comes to
138 Joost : No they expect that they get what they want. I think they will. Where did I say they were? It's uncommon. Other carriers would enable their lobiests
139 Varig md-11 : My sarcasm is absolutely justified: many ATC guys complained Ryanair crews were aggressive and always trying to dictate what was best for their plane
140 Janmnastami : You're wrong: the equivalence between different identification documents are regulated by law and the contract between the carrier and the customer c
141 RussianJet : On Ryanair they certainly are. Only passports and national ID cards accepted, even on UK domestic flights and Common Travel Area flights (i.e. betwee
142 Post contains links Janmnastami : http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/...ess/business-uk-italy-ryanair.html
143 PanHAM : Thanks. Like I said, it is difficulet to get the message across when even domestic Italian flights are confused with intra European flights.
144 PPVRA : You just put down TWO Brazilian states and its people in this thread, and now you say something like this? Short memory there???
145 Burkhard : One point I see is that Ryanair, flying inner Italian as well as inner-EU, might see a lot of difficulties to explain a passenger in Bergamo that he c
146 Solair : Ryanair are pretty unreasonable about ID on domestic flights within the Republic of Ireland too I've been on flights from Cork to Dublin where they ha
147 RussianJet : Why unreasonable? Just because other carriers accept things doesn't mean all should or have to. All kinds of things vary between airlines. Their poli
148 BrouAviation : In the quote I reacted on. It was you comparing them to a mobile phone networkprovider. I really hope not. If yes, this: Is certainly NOT a -- Do I r
149 RussianJet : Actually, it's extremely simple to figure out what you need before hand. A semi-trained chimp could figure it out. People just don't bother or assume
150 Beagleboys : that sound strange from someone that comes from a country that had a "pedophiles party", allowed prostitution, killing of handicapped guys etc... Bei
151 RussianJet : Yes, it is - for several reasons. 1) Even when issued as ideally as it can be in that old format (i.e. as you describe), it is ancient technology whi
152 BrouAviation : Oh, immediately admit Holland isn't the nicest place on earth either. However two of the three points you mention are just not true. In this case, I
153 AirNZ : Well, whatever you choose to do when traveling by bus is up to yourself but, as we are not discussing bus travel, it's a pretty stupid and pointless
154 Rutankrd : To travel domestically on a public transportation service should require ONLY a valid ticket and boarding pass for said journey ! This does not detrac
155 BrouAviation : Agreed. In your opinion may be, but certainly not in my view. Then re-read my post. That was not everything I said. I said, they would never succeed
156 Solair : Interestingly with the Irish & UK common travel area, which predates schengen by decades, there can still be security/immigration controls at airports
157 AirNZ : Yes, of course it's an opinion......but I still don't see any sort of valid comparison between air travel and local bus travel. They are apples and o
158 RussianJet : Why would you want to? Have they actually ever said that? If they did, I doubt it was meant literally. As already stated, the methods of travel are v
159 777236ER : Then the only people who will suffer are the Italians. Of course FR have the right to ignore stupid laws. Just as everyone does. I assume you ignore
160 Varig md-11 : I am sorry to say you're the source of this remark with your "fazendeiro" attitude implying that "privaye property is sovereign" and only individuals
161 Varig md-11 : Thanks for confirming my rumor over lunch And, yes, I am part of real life and in contact with airline industry people instead of theorizing hidden b
162 Mariner : Then your answer is simple - fly Lufthansa. It isn't a law that you must fly Ryanair. If you don't like 'em, why fly 'em? Ryanair makes no secret of
163 BrouAviation : ????? --- I stand corrected on the EI part, but you are missing the point I am trying to make. Most airlines have very similar procedures and regulat
164 Mariner : That's a bit quaint when you are dumping on Ryanair for sticking to their rules. LOL. And a Happy New Year to you, too. mariner
165 BrouAviation : I could start talking about sovereignty and that kind of stuff, but I'll just admit you've got me.
166 RussianJet : Sorry, but if all of that happened to you then I really overestimated you. Surely you would know better than to not acquaint yourself with their rule
167 Janmnastami : Have you ever seen an Italian fishing license? That law doesn't threaten safety and security. Why do all carriers (EasyJet, Alitalia, Lufthansa, Meri
168 BrouAviation : I didn't forget to, I almost did. And hey, I have flown I think about 8 times with Ryanair, and all the things I wrote happened to me at least one ti
169 RussianJet : I disagree. It's a slight exaggeration, but really - there is nothing difficult about it. You tell me? I haven't said so, and don't intend to either.
170 Brons2 : I'm not going to read this whole long thread, but my opinion is that the Italian government should make baseline standards for domestic flights. Then
171 Airtraveler : Completely agree with you, probably I've seen less Italian ID than you, but consistency between local administration is surely something missing. I g
172 Rutankrd : This is now an extremely long thread and given MOLs unique world vision i put it to you that the ID issue is his standard smoke screen and blame shift
173 Mariner : Then I don't know what 90% of this thread is about, especially the Ryanair bashing. mariner
174 777236ER : Of course if you pay for a service you can expect the most out of it. As a paying airline customer I expect absolutely the best treatment, Ryanair pu
175 BrouAviation : Why should they book a ticket on Alitalia to a place they don't want to go? EVery 4 years they choose to do so (subsidizing) by choosing a government
176 Beagleboys : Well, ok. Tomorrow i come to your home and i do whatever i want because, in my opinion, is safer. My country has a law. If you come here you should o
177 Mariner : Absolutely. So Ryanair follows the law and lets someone on the plane with a fishing license, as the law says. Following their own rules, Ryanair woul
178 RussianJet : That certainly happens. I hope you realise that it happens the other way around as well though.
179 Janmnastami : Don't worry, many carriers would like to receive the subsidies given to FR; FR isn't the unique low-cost carrier present in Italy. AZ, U2, LH Italia,
180 Mariner : But who will pay for the damage to the aircraft? Ryanair didn't want to let that passenger on the plane - the Italian government said they must. Insu
181 Janmnastami : You haven't understood what we're discussion about, it's the only explanation of this your absurd example. Italian government doesn't say FR has to a
182 Mariner : No, obviously I don't understand what the conversation is about. Italy demands Ryanair to do something that Ryanair doesn't want to do, so Ryanair is
183 Janmnastami : It's not a problem: I'm not bashing FR and they're free to stop all domestic routes if they don't want to comply with that law.
184 Mariner : So - what part do I not understand? mariner
185 Evomutant : As you have explained your position, nothing. I think, and it seems you do too, that its simple. FR don't like the rules, they leave. Others seem to
186 777236ER : You would have no choice if you want to fly in Italy. If the Italians chose to subsidise their failing national airline, that's their choice. It is,
187 Janmnastami : Do you believe FR and AZ are the sole carriers operating domestic routes in Italy? Are you drunk? I never wrote it. Defence? It was an example and it
188 UALWN : Actually, FR gets a ton of subsidies from city-owned airports, in Italy and elsewhere. Indeed. And while in Italy you have to respect the Italian law
189 BrouAviation : What a nonsense are you talking. You are turning and twisting. First it were those poor Italians having to fly with only one bad and heavy subsidized
190 UALWN : Let's not exaggerate: it was only 3-0. In any case, I'm pretty sure you both remember which country ended up winning the tournament...
191 RussianJet : You know that all depends on definition, and by any definition even if you don't accept it to be the biggest then it is damn near being so. The point
192 BestWestern : In terms of passenger numbers FR is Europes largest airline. So much for sad and utterly stupid.
193 Joost : How do you know? Because they didn't post it on their web-site? How do you know if their lawyers are not preparing documents to go to court? Or, IMO
194 UALWN : You're perfectly right. The point is that air transportation is far from being purely market-driven and market-controlled, as some people here seem t
195 BrouAviation : Which point? Have you actually read it in the context? Indeed, that is true. And that is what he should have said. But he didn't. No, FR is just more
196 Joost : And that creates the need for a transparent, equal playing field, with clear and transparent rules, in order to optimize the landscape were majority
197 Joost : I'm not exactly sure about that. It depends on the definition of load. LH, for example, sends full-color FR-bashing "brochures" to politicians and ot
198 AirNZ : You're wrong again mate! However, if I may say, your 'norms' are, as you have previously admitted, only obtained from books. Hmmm! pot....meet kettle
199 UALWN : I'm non "conveniently" not-mentioning anything at all. It's all in your fertile imagination. I'm stating a true fact. I already explained in reply #
200 UALWN : Would you care to elaborate about the facts that lead you to write this? Or is it just your opinion?
201 Beagleboys : well, so a little more explanation of the italian ID system: 1. Everyone that is on Italian ground should have a valid ID in his/her pocket. From 0y
202 BrouAviation : Indeed, good you are here AirNZ. Why should I? READ! READ! READ! Now what is your point actually? The biggest/smallest discussion is of no use at all
203 Post contains images 777236ER : Ryanair get support from airports to operate there. If the airports are state run, so be it. That's called business. Alitalia gets millions of tax pa
204 Janmnastami : I agree, but if FR is the only carrier to protest against that law, it means it's a problem of FR: if they want to fly domestic routes, they have to
205 Janmnastami : Alitalia GOT millions of tax payers money. FR has the right to ignore this law if FR doesn't want to fly domestic routes. But... do you know this law
206 BrouAviation : Agreed. Nuance always brings a discussion to a higher level. And yes, I know I make mistakes too when it comes to nuance. Of course they have, but th
207 Joost : Just for the comparison. The exact rules might differ from country to country, but AFAIK they are all pretty much similar. (Although the age differs)
208 Beagleboys : wrong verb. the law says that the airline should accept all ID issued from a public authority. 1. yes, everyone it's free to break laws. but after th
209 Joost : Do you have the exact law / directive / regulation available? (In Italian is fine, just being curious)
210 Post contains links Beagleboys : thats it if you fell masochist and you want to read the entire law.... that's it: http://www.parlamento.it/parlam/leggi/deleghe/00443dla.htm ps. no hu
211 777236er : What are you basing that on? Maybe you should understand some of the current flight crew issues with EZY. I think most people in the industry would l
212 Janmnastami : Absolutely false.
213 EI787 : This thread has degenerated into a Ryanair rant, as most threads involving FR do nowadays. If members cannot discuss certain airlines or topics mature
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