Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3251 posts, RR: 15 Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 25935 times:
With fleet and route integration well underway as the SOC is approaching, DL has started doing some significant aircraft/route adjustments. One of the many changes is they've started using the DC9 on MSP to East Coast flights, all routes that used to be operated with the Airbus and 757.
Right now, as it would seem, DL has asked the DC9 to cross a bridge too far, having it operate some flights over 1000 miles.
PHL-MSP has diverted every night this week alone for fuel stops enroute. As this route, and many others, are obviously well outside of the realistic range and performance envelope of the DC9, hopefully these routes are soon changed to MD88's when the SLC/MSP - MD88/A320 base swap occurs.
That's about +/-900 miles distance (depending on the flight plan), and according to wikipedia the max range of both the DC-9-30 and -50 is 1,635 nm, rendering the route as not even close to the aircraft's limit. Is the DC9 really such an underperformer, or are the strong headwinds along the route at this time of the year the cause for the excessive amount of diversions?
[Edited 2009-12-24 17:10:33]
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3811 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 25758 times:
In the not-so-distant past DC-9-30s (perhaps -50s as well) were regularly scheduled on a good # of NW flights between MSP and PHL/NYC/WAS, as well as some MSP-TUS/PHX/SMF frequencies...don't recall frequent diversions being an issue of any significance back then...although it seemed as their A319/320 fleet was built up the '9s tended to gravitate away from the MSP hub to DTW and MEM.
WindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1319 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 25570 times:
So just because some jetBlue A320s have to make fuel stops in the winter to fly from East Coast to the West due to strong head winds, does that mean jetBlue is also pushing their A320 (some of them brand new) beyond its operational range?
The absolute authority with which the OP seems to post makes me believe this could be just some kind of DL bashing.
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
ABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 879 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 25464 times:
I love how some do speak with authority on issues of how an airline should run itself. Earlier in the week I was heckled by a customer because we had a crew availability problem the day after the massive snowstorm disrupted operations in the Northeast. I explained to the customers we had a crew out of place and were getting a crew replacement to operate the flight down from IAH and back. This man could not belive that we didnt have enough people. I asked him if he ever got stuck in a storm someplace and was not able report to where ever he needed to be? He kept quiet after that.
P.S Take a look at the winds aloft and you will see why flights East to West are making fuel stops. http://adds.aviationweather.gov/winds/
Transpac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3251 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 25323 times:
Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 1): and according to wikipedia the max range of both the DC-9-30 and -50 is 1,635 nm,
Tsk tsk.... using Wikipedia as a source??
The DC9-50 could possibly ferry 1635nm, but not a snowball's chance in hellfire that's it's max payload range.
Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 3): ...although it seemed as their A319/320 fleet was built up the '9s tended to gravitate away from the MSP hub to DTW and MEM.
Further, NW deactivated all aux tanks on the DC9-50 fleet. While many of them had 580 gallon or 780 gallon aux tanks, they've been deactivated across the fleet if not removed altogether, and that is unusable fuel capacity, further limiting the range of the fleet.
Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 5): The absolute authority with which the OP seems to post makes me believe this could be just some kind of DL bashing.
Since you offer nothing in rebuttal and seem to be the only person offended by this thread, I won't further dignify your response with any reply
MSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2331 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 25094 times:
Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 5): So just because some jetBlue A320s have to make fuel stops in the winter to fly from East Coast to the West due to strong head winds, does that mean jetBlue is also pushing their A320 (some of them brand new) beyond its operational range?
Technically, yes. But take a look at jetBlue's fleet. What other plane do they have available to substitute? Exactly. That's why it's not noteworthy.
Quoting DefAeroSales (Reply 9): I hope this isn't a stupid response, but isn't NW7219 scheduled to stop at GRR on the way to MSP?
No sentence with a question mark at the end is stupid. That's what my mom always said.
But to reply, this flight is scheduled to be non-stop. GRR has just been the most popular refueling point.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 27503 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24661 times:
Quoting KDTWFlyer (Reply 13): DL operates DC9s from DTW-IAH on a regular basis which is 95 miles further than PHL-MSP...
If memory correct, AC's longest DC-9-32 routes included those below, and probably a few others of similar distance. Those are all significantly longer than DTW-IAH (934 nm) and PHL-MSP, (852 nm), and several are east-west routes with usual westbound headwinds..
DeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1708 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24534 times:
I used to travel from PHL-MSP and DTW on NW Diesel 9's a lot going back and forth across country to visit relatives in SAN...NEVER had a problem. Could be just the extraordinary winds that the NE has been experiencing lately but PHL-MSP is not a questionable route. A little bit of research would show that even at max weight the DC-9-50 can handle 1200nm and beyond easily.
VC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1049 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24419 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
I can recall MSP-DCA also being outside the effective DC-9-30 range, which is why it was cut, several years ago.
Was it range? I sort of thought it was because NW wanted additional capacity on DCA, and let's face it, noisy Diesel-Nines won't win you any friends in Washington, what with the river visual and so on.
Look, questions about aux tanks on the Nines aside, it's not like this has been the ideal week to discuss aircraft range performance. Winds, long deicing and runway clearance delays, freaking huge storms across the northern United States... cut those boys some slack.
Aviationbuff08 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24417 times:
Not having the ability to track the DC 9-50 short of using NWA.com but it doesn't appear logical that they would send an aircraft on routes that it doesn't have the legs for. There is something missing here. How long is the DC 9-50 scheduled to operate PHL-MSP?
What other routes has DL put the DC9-50 on that are close to the maximum range?
What routes do the DC9-50's normally operate?
DeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1708 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 24330 times:
Regardless of the reserve tanks or not the -51 is still able to reach 950mi or so between PHL and MSP easily. The NWA website quotes their -51s as having a fuel capacity anywhere from 3,672 to 4,239 gallons depending upon how the aircraft is outfitted (I will assume that the 4,239 gallon figure is an aircraft equipped with reserves). Even taking the lower end of the scale at 3,672 gallons which approximates to 13,900 liters the range of the -51 at max weight still makes the mark by almost 300nm. Again this is not to say that extraordinarily strong winds and given weather conditions in the NE this past week with a/c sitting on the ground for de-icing and long taxi times could stretch this old bird to her limit, but this is not an unreasonable route for the -51 as they've been doing it for years.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 16327 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 24068 times:
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12): Technically, yes. But take a look at jetBlue's fleet. What other plane do they have available to substitute? Exactly. That's why it's not noteworthy.
Delta is probably facing the same thing in this case. They probably just did not have any other planes available for this route. Diversions are not particularly cheap, and it isn't like this is the sort of issue that would blindside them.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
: I've done EWR-MSP and JFK-MSP in DC-9s plenty of times, all free of tech stops. The weather in the Upper Midwest has been crap recently, and tha
: According to Delta's web site, the DC-9-50 has a range of 785 miles. The DC-9-40 can fly 865 miles, while the DC-9-30 can fly 1050 miles. This probabl
: I believe the FAA changed the passenger weight calculations in the last 6 years or so. This pushed the DC-9-30's range lower. If someone has any spec
: Huh, the wind seems to blow from the South pretty often here in Texas. On a side note...I have flown the DC9-32 a few times from AUS-MSP, never a fue
: Ozark used to fly DC-9-34LRs STL-SAN. That is a long way in a DC-9.
: You got them all except one .... YYZ-HAV, 1247 nm / 1435 mi. No, no aux tanks, just standard tankage for a DC-9-32. Engines were JT8D-7s, much less p
: Weather like we've had the last couple of weeks is going to expose exactly which aircraft are close to their limits on east-west flights. Evidently th
: How 'bout that - the plane pictured in the OP still caries its MuseAir tail number. That means it surely was used HOU-LAX... back in the day.
: I agree, I'm sure the crew and dispatchers are well-aware of the range of the DC-9, and the possibility of stopping in GRR or another airport al
: No cause for concern. The flight will still have at least 45 minutes of fuel left over after flying to the destination and then the alternate, because
: I used to fly MIA to YYZ & YUL on AC DC-9-32's....... never a problem!
: Any weather or winds DTW/IAH stops for fuel in MEM or arrives with no bags. This happens more than not.
: What about bringing some of those 717's outcof the desert and put them on those routes. They seem to work pretty well for Air Tran as they are the bac
: Possibly the case. However, DL has cut many mainline routes altogether, and switched from ML to RJs on many other routes. All these spare ML aircraft
: Not a bad idea, but DL already has more than it's share of fleet types/sub fleets... Depends on the airport. At mine, they just park "out back," get
: TN (TAA) & AN operated DC-9-30s between ADL & PER for many years. That's 1145 nm compared to 852 nm for PHL-MSP. That's basically an east west route
: Just a question, since we're on the subject of the DC-9 here. Can it effectively operate LGA-DAB with a decent or max payload?
: Some of us older folk remember when DC9 trips at or around 1,000 miles was the norm. I used to fly them on USAir and CO in the 80's and 90's. Based o
: Didn't realize that - very interesting. I remember flying HOU-DTW back in 94 on a DC9-30, of course weather was fine so no tech stop; but interesting
: Before they had any 737s, FL used to fly 717s ATL-DEN. I believe that route is close to 1300.
: A few of us "older folk" may remember the DC-9-33CF (convertible passenger/cargo with main deck cargo door) that ran out of fuel and ditched in the C
: I don't think any of the ones currently parked in the desert are in need of a home, as IIRC, Boeing Capital has already found a home for the ones YX
: And in the more distant past, my first flight was MSP-DCA on a Republic DC-9, and I wouldn't be surprised if that same aircraft was one of the ones m
: Just wanted to chime in about tech stops....... Its not only about the headwinds but the required fuel for the IFR alternate when adverse weather is p
: I have noticed some MSP-BOS flights on the dc9. Don't recall if it's 30/40/ or 50. I have not seen any BOS-MSP flights....MSP-BOS is blocked around 2h
: I'd figure that it could. They are higher, yes. And if the weather is bad across a general area, you're obviously going to have to go further afield
: I agree with 2H4. I will take a DC-9 over a CRJ-200 any day. Also, most of these flights are fuel stops. These winds aloft and killing not just DL but
: This summer DL flew ALB-MSP on a DC-9-30. Block time was scheduled for 2:55. Now its a CR9.
: Like others have posted, I flew DCA/BWI-MSP on the -9 (-30 and -40 mostly) tech-free for several years in the 90s. I didn't hear of techs being an iss
: They will probably just taxi to a gate, especially since DL has a fairly substantial operation at GRR. When a Compass E-jet I was on had to return fo
: When FL was wet leasing the A-320's. An A-320 had crapped out and AirTran operated 2 717 on ATL-LAX. I was traveling with 4 other co-workers. We were
: This "old folk" in December 1980 flew a Republic DC9 from MCO to MKE....1075 miles. Since the Republic DC9s became Northwest DC9s which became Delta D
: Thanks for the correction...you're right, that was during my last year of undergrad studies in DC. I guess all that booze and reefer I had back then
: Whose 717's? I don't think that DL or NW ever had any 717's in their respective fleets, but as always I could be wrong. True, but with the DC-9-30's
: the incremental cost of operating the M88 or M90 over the 717s or D93s/4s is relatively small while the incremental revenue is quite a bit higher. The
: NWA did the MIA-DTW on a DC-9 and the old flight 891/892 from PBI-DTW-PBI was a DC-9. I have been on a DC-9 from DTW-DFW many times and MSP-JFK/BOS on