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DL Pushing The DC9 Beyond Its Operational Range  
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 13
Posted (4 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 25380 times:

With fleet and route integration well underway as the SOC is approaching, DL has started doing some significant aircraft/route adjustments. One of the many changes is they've started using the DC9 on MSP to East Coast flights, all routes that used to be operated with the Airbus and 757.

Right now, as it would seem, DL has asked the DC9 to cross a bridge too far, having it operate some flights over 1000 miles.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA7219

PHL-MSP has diverted every night this week alone for fuel stops enroute. As this route, and many others, are obviously well outside of the realistic range and performance envelope of the DC9, hopefully these routes are soon changed to MD88's when the SLC/MSP - MD88/A320 base swap occurs.  twocents 




151 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1041 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 25325 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
PHL-MSP

That's about +/-900 miles distance (depending on the flight plan), and according to wikipedia the max range of both the DC-9-30 and -50 is 1,635 nm, rendering the route as not even close to the aircraft's limit. Is the DC9 really such an underperformer, or are the strong headwinds along the route at this time of the year the cause for the excessive amount of diversions?

[Edited 2009-12-24 17:10:33]


'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 25227 times:

That's not what I would expect from the largest airline fleet in the world. Glad I'm not a passenger on those flights. They need to pull the DC-9 off those routes ASAP.

User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (4 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 25203 times:

In the not-so-distant past DC-9-30s (perhaps -50s as well) were regularly scheduled on a good # of NW flights between MSP and PHL/NYC/WAS, as well as some MSP-TUS/PHX/SMF frequencies...don't recall frequent diversions being an issue of any significance back then...although it seemed as their A319/320 fleet was built up the '9s tended to gravitate away from the MSP hub to DTW and MEM.

User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1609 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (4 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 25142 times:

Eastern used to fly DC-9-51s from ATL and MSP. In the summer, fuel stops in STL were common.

User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (4 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 25015 times:

So just because some jetBlue A320s have to make fuel stops in the winter to fly from East Coast to the West due to strong head winds, does that mean jetBlue is also pushing their A320 (some of them brand new) beyond its operational range?

The absolute authority with which the OP seems to post makes me believe this could be just some kind of DL bashing.



I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 861 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (4 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 24909 times:

I love how some do speak with authority on issues of how an airline should run itself. Earlier in the week I was heckled by a customer because we had a crew availability problem the day after the massive snowstorm disrupted operations in the Northeast. I explained to the customers we had a crew out of place and were getting a crew replacement to operate the flight down from IAH and back. This man could not belive that we didnt have enough people. I asked him if he ever got stuck in a storm someplace and was not able report to where ever he needed to be? He kept quiet after that.
P.S Take a look at the winds aloft and you will see why flights East to West are making fuel stops.
http://adds.aviationweather.gov/winds/

JD CRPXE



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8762 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 24868 times:



Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 4):
does that mean jetBlue is also pushing their A320 (some of them brand new) beyond its operational range?

Yes, of course. From the data you refer to, it seems obvious. But, it can still be the correct decision.

I can recall MSP-DCA also being outside the effective DC-9-30 range, which is why it was cut, several years ago.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (4 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 24768 times:



Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 1):
and according to wikipedia the max range of both the DC-9-30 and -50 is 1,635 nm,

Tsk tsk.... using Wikipedia as a source??  Wink

The DC9-50 could possibly ferry 1635nm, but not a snowball's chance in hellfire that's it's max payload range.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 3):
...although it seemed as their A319/320 fleet was built up the '9s tended to gravitate away from the MSP hub to DTW and MEM.

Exactly.

Further, NW deactivated all aux tanks on the DC9-50 fleet. While many of them had 580 gallon or 780 gallon aux tanks, they've been deactivated across the fleet if not removed altogether, and that is unusable fuel capacity, further limiting the range of the fleet.

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 5):
The absolute authority with which the OP seems to post makes me believe this could be just some kind of DL bashing.

Since you offer nothing in rebuttal and seem to be the only person offended by this thread, I won't further dignify your response with any reply  Wink


User currently offlineDefAeroSales From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 24674 times:

I hope this isn't a stupid response, but isn't NW7219 scheduled to stop at GRR on the way to MSP?

User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 24637 times:



Quoting DefAeroSales (Reply 9):
I hope this isn't a stupid response, but isn't NW7219 scheduled to stop at GRR on the way to MSP?

Flightaware makes it look that way but NW does not operate PHL-GRR nonstop, the flight is scheduled as PHL-MSP.


User currently offlineDefAeroSales From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 24596 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 10):
Flightaware makes it look that way but NW does not operate PHL-GRR nonstop, the flight is scheduled as PHL-MSP

Thanks, I didn't know that.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 24539 times:



Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 5):
So just because some jetBlue A320s have to make fuel stops in the winter to fly from East Coast to the West due to strong head winds, does that mean jetBlue is also pushing their A320 (some of them brand new) beyond its operational range?

Technically, yes. But take a look at jetBlue's fleet. What other plane do they have available to substitute? Exactly. That's why it's not noteworthy.

Quoting DefAeroSales (Reply 9):
I hope this isn't a stupid response, but isn't NW7219 scheduled to stop at GRR on the way to MSP?

No sentence with a question mark at the end is stupid. That's what my mom always said.  Wink

But to reply, this flight is scheduled to be non-stop. GRR has just been the most popular refueling point.


User currently offlineKDTWFlyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 12 months 12 hours ago) and read 24410 times:

DL operates DC9s from DTW-IAH on a regular basis which is 95 miles further than PHL-MSP...

e.g. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...5/history/20091224/2032Z/KDTW/KIAH

Anyone know the longest NW/DL DC9 route?



NW B744 B742 B753 B752 A333 A332 A320 A319 DC10 DC9 ARJ CRJ S340
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (4 years 12 months 12 hours ago) and read 24303 times:



Quoting KDTWFlyer (Reply 13):
DL operates DC9s from DTW-IAH on a regular basis which is 95 miles further than PHL-MSP...

But DTW - IAH does not have to deal with winds.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (4 years 12 months 12 hours ago) and read 24228 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
ne of the many changes is they've started using the DC9 on MSP to East Coast flights, all routes that used to be operated with the Airbus and 757.

I'll take a DC-9 on one of those routes long before I'd take a CRJ-200 on any number of the "regional" routes on which they're used these days...

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 12 months 12 hours ago) and read 24199 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 15):
I'll take a DC-9 on one of those routes long before I'd take a CRJ-200 on any number of the "regional" routes on which they're used these days...

 checkmark  No joke!! In fact, I'll take DC-9 with a tech stop over an RJ nonstop


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25983 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 12 months 12 hours ago) and read 24106 times:



Quoting KDTWFlyer (Reply 13):
DL operates DC9s from DTW-IAH on a regular basis which is 95 miles further than PHL-MSP...

If memory correct, AC's longest DC-9-32 routes included those below, and probably a few others of similar distance. Those are all significantly longer than DTW-IAH (934 nm) and PHL-MSP, (852 nm), and several are east-west routes with usual westbound headwinds..

YUL-MIA 1220 nm
YYZ-YXE 1196 nm
YYZ-YYT 1150 nm
YYZ-NAS 1121 nm
YYZ-YQR 1098 nm
YYZ-MIA 1072 nm
YYZ-DFW 1042 nm

Many DC-9 operators used them on nonstop routes well over 1000 nm.


User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (4 years 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 23979 times:

I used to travel from PHL-MSP and DTW on NW Diesel 9's a lot going back and forth across country to visit relatives in SAN...NEVER had a problem. Could be just the extraordinary winds that the NE has been experiencing lately but PHL-MSP is not a questionable route. A little bit of research would show that even at max weight the DC-9-50 can handle 1200nm and beyond easily.

Look at the airplane performance section: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/dc9.htm



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (4 years 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 23944 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Many DC-9 operators used them on nonstop routes well over 1000 nm.

AC most likely had the aux tanks installed on their fleet. Further, the DC9-32's had higher thrust-rated engines and were capable of better takeoff performance, lifting heavier weights and more fuel.

Quoting DeltaMD11 (Reply 18):
A little bit of research would show that even at max weight the DC-9-50 can handle 1200nm and beyond easily

As I said in a previous post.... the NW DC9-50's do NOT have aux tanks and are therefore not able to achieve the maximum range as quoted by Douglas.


User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 23864 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):

I can recall MSP-DCA also being outside the effective DC-9-30 range, which is why it was cut, several years ago.

Was it range? I sort of thought it was because NW wanted additional capacity on DCA, and let's face it, noisy Diesel-Nines won't win you any friends in Washington, what with the river visual and so on.

Look, questions about aux tanks on the Nines aside, it's not like this has been the ideal week to discuss aircraft range performance. Winds, long deicing and runway clearance delays, freaking huge storms across the northern United States... cut those boys some slack.


User currently offlineAviationbuff08 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 23862 times:

Not having the ability to track the DC 9-50 short of using NWA.com but it doesn't appear logical that they would send an aircraft on routes that it doesn't have the legs for. There is something missing here. How long is the DC 9-50 scheduled to operate PHL-MSP?

What other routes has DL put the DC9-50 on that are close to the maximum range?
What routes do the DC9-50's normally operate?

[Edited 2009-12-24 20:29:10]

User currently offlineDtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 23821 times:

Its not just the 50's having problems with the wind and weather, just look at tonight's flight which is a series 30 , it too had to stop and refuel at GRR

User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (4 years 12 months 11 hours ago) and read 23775 times:

Regardless of the reserve tanks or not the -51 is still able to reach 950mi or so between PHL and MSP easily. The NWA website quotes their -51s as having a fuel capacity anywhere from 3,672 to 4,239 gallons depending upon how the aircraft is outfitted (I will assume that the 4,239 gallon figure is an aircraft equipped with reserves). Even taking the lower end of the scale at 3,672 gallons which approximates to 13,900 liters the range of the -51 at max weight still makes the mark by almost 300nm. Again this is not to say that extraordinarily strong winds and given weather conditions in the NE this past week with a/c sitting on the ground for de-icing and long taxi times could stretch this old bird to her limit, but this is not an unreasonable route for the -51 as they've been doing it for years.


Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15830 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (4 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 23513 times:



Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12):
Technically, yes. But take a look at jetBlue's fleet. What other plane do they have available to substitute? Exactly. That's why it's not noteworthy.

Delta is probably facing the same thing in this case. They probably just did not have any other planes available for this route. Diversions are not particularly cheap, and it isn't like this is the sort of issue that would blindside them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 Post contains images Mir :    I've done EWR-MSP and JFK-MSP in DC-9s plenty of times, all free of tech stops. The weather in the Upper Midwest has been crap recently, and tha
26 Nwarooster : According to Delta's web site, the DC-9-50 has a range of 785 miles. The DC-9-40 can fly 865 miles, while the DC-9-30 can fly 1050 miles. This probabl
27 Flighty : I believe the FAA changed the passenger weight calculations in the last 6 years or so. This pushed the DC-9-30's range lower. If someone has any spec
28 Brons2 : Huh, the wind seems to blow from the South pretty often here in Texas. On a side note...I have flown the DC9-32 a few times from AUS-MSP, never a fue
29 Falstaff : Ozark used to fly DC-9-34LRs STL-SAN. That is a long way in a DC-9.
30 LongHauler : You got them all except one .... YYZ-HAV, 1247 nm / 1435 mi. No, no aux tanks, just standard tankage for a DC-9-32. Engines were JT8D-7s, much less p
31 SeaBosDca : Weather like we've had the last couple of weeks is going to expose exactly which aircraft are close to their limits on east-west flights. Evidently th
32 SCCutler : How 'bout that - the plane pictured in the OP still caries its MuseAir tail number. That means it surely was used HOU-LAX... back in the day.
33 Post contains images IFlyATA :    I agree, I'm sure the crew and dispatchers are well-aware of the range of the DC-9, and the possibility of stopping in GRR or another airport al
34 Jhooper : No cause for concern. The flight will still have at least 45 minutes of fuel left over after flying to the destination and then the alternate, because
35 USAFDO : I used to fly MIA to YYZ & YUL on AC DC-9-32's....... never a problem!
36 NW : Any weather or winds DTW/IAH stops for fuel in MEM or arrives with no bags. This happens more than not.
37 76794p : What about bringing some of those 717's outcof the desert and put them on those routes. They seem to work pretty well for Air Tran as they are the bac
38 Rbgso : Possibly the case. However, DL has cut many mainline routes altogether, and switched from ML to RJs on many other routes. All these spare ML aircraft
39 NWAESC : Not a bad idea, but DL already has more than it's share of fleet types/sub fleets... Depends on the airport. At mine, they just park "out back," get
40 Gemuser : TN (TAA) & AN operated DC-9-30s between ADL & PER for many years. That's 1145 nm compared to 852 nm for PHL-MSP. That's basically an east west route
41 JBAirwaysFan : Just a question, since we're on the subject of the DC-9 here. Can it effectively operate LGA-DAB with a decent or max payload?
42 Manfredj : Some of us older folk remember when DC9 trips at or around 1,000 miles was the norm. I used to fly them on USAir and CO in the 80's and 90's. Based o
43 Drerx7 : Didn't realize that - very interesting. I remember flying HOU-DTW back in 94 on a DC9-30, of course weather was fine so no tech stop; but interesting
44 Quickmover : Before they had any 737s, FL used to fly 717s ATL-DEN. I believe that route is close to 1300.
45 Post contains links Viscount724 : A few of us "older folk" may remember the DC-9-33CF (convertible passenger/cargo with main deck cargo door) that ran out of fuel and ditched in the C
46 Srbmod : I don't think any of the ones currently parked in the desert are in need of a home, as IIRC, Boeing Capital has already found a home for the ones YX
47 BOSSAN : And in the more distant past, my first flight was MSP-DCA on a Republic DC-9, and I wouldn't be surprised if that same aircraft was one of the ones m
48 Futureatp : Just wanted to chime in about tech stops....... Its not only about the headwinds but the required fuel for the IFR alternate when adverse weather is p
49 NWA757boy : I have noticed some MSP-BOS flights on the dc9. Don't recall if it's 30/40/ or 50. I have not seen any BOS-MSP flights....MSP-BOS is blocked around 2h
50 Mir : I'd figure that it could. They are higher, yes. And if the weather is bad across a general area, you're obviously going to have to go further afield
51 DLDTW1962 : I agree with 2H4. I will take a DC-9 over a CRJ-200 any day. Also, most of these flights are fuel stops. These winds aloft and killing not just DL but
52 USAirALB : This summer DL flew ALB-MSP on a DC-9-30. Block time was scheduled for 2:55. Now its a CR9.
53 Western727 : Like others have posted, I flew DCA/BWI-MSP on the -9 (-30 and -40 mostly) tech-free for several years in the 90s. I didn't hear of techs being an iss
54 BMI727 : They will probably just taxi to a gate, especially since DL has a fairly substantial operation at GRR. When a Compass E-jet I was on had to return fo
55 AvConsultant : When FL was wet leasing the A-320's. An A-320 had crapped out and AirTran operated 2 717 on ATL-LAX. I was traveling with 4 other co-workers. We were
56 Trucker : This "old folk" in December 1980 flew a Republic DC9 from MCO to MKE....1075 miles. Since the Republic DC9s became Northwest DC9s which became Delta D
57 Western727 : Thanks for the correction...you're right, that was during my last year of undergrad studies in DC. I guess all that booze and reefer I had back then
58 TSS : Whose 717's? I don't think that DL or NW ever had any 717's in their respective fleets, but as always I could be wrong. True, but with the DC-9-30's
59 WorldTraveler : the incremental cost of operating the M88 or M90 over the 717s or D93s/4s is relatively small while the incremental revenue is quite a bit higher. The
60 NWADC10LUVER : NWA did the MIA-DTW on a DC-9 and the old flight 891/892 from PBI-DTW-PBI was a DC-9. I have been on a DC-9 from DTW-DFW many times and MSP-JFK/BOS on
61 Drerx7 : There are that many around?
62 Revelation : Interesting. The Wiki MD-90 page says: The Wiki DL page says that they have 16 and have orders to obtain 12 used MD-90s. It'd be interesting to see t
63 ASFlyer : I worked at Republic back during the 80's/90's. We flew all versions of the DC-9's (including the smaller DC-9-10) on many longer flights. I distinctl
64 Par13del : I have been coming back to this thread the last couple days and it brings one question to my mind. We read on this site a lot about new technology bet
65 Viscount724 : The 717 is closer in capacity to the DC-9-30 than the -40 and -50. Boeing shows 717 seating at 117 in an all-Y configuration at 32" pitch. I believe
66 TSS : Ah. Thanks for the information.
67 FX1816 : Sorry but there is no way DL is only putting just enough fuel to get to the destination and not allowing for a diversion, it's diversion by the way n
68 Revelation : No captain in their right mind would take a plane that did not have the required fuel on-board.
69 SEPilot : New planes are expensive, planes that are paid for have no payments. For short range trips the efficiency of new planes probably cannot overcome the
70 Tommy767 : Back in the day did CO ever operate EWR/LGA-DEN with the D9S? I thought they might had at some point?
71 Drerx7 : MD80s
72 Flighty : The replacement for the DC-9 is the E-175, and CRJ-900 to put it very simply. I don't think the M90 (or the 763ER or the 747) is in that race. It is
73 NWADC10LUVER : I was on a UA flight from BOS-SFO and we had to divert to SLC "as per pilots own words over the P.A. We did have enough fuel to make it to SFO". I als
74 Post contains links StealthZ : Not saying this is gospel either... Oh yeah, the source-- http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=277 Sure it's max payload range may be
75 MSYtristar : NW has been flying the DC-9-50 on MSP-MSY several times over the past week. My Aunt flew in on one on the 17th I think it was. That flight is, IIRC, 1
76 71Zulu : I think back in August, all of the NW skeds into MSY (MEM-DTW-MSP) were on the DC-9 and not sure if that has ever been the case before. One thing I do
77 BMI727 : He was possibly dumbing it down for the pax. That would be incredibly stupid. The waste of fuel would be enormous since an airliner would have to bur
78 Trex8 : does rust weight more than the steel it started off as?maybe the OEW of these planes has increased over the years!
79 STT757 : BOS-DEN, IAD-DEN, PHL-DEN and LGA-DEN were MD-80s, EWR-DEN was A300s, 727-200s, 737-300s, MD-80s.
80 Trucker : And wouldn't you be overweight for landing on short flights?
81 BMI727 : You absolutely would be. I think that a diversion for fuel once in a while is a lot less of a pain than an overweight landing on a regular basis.
82 Malaysia : I would take OZARK over DL anytime and of course on a DC-9 I flew NW DC-9 on DCA-MSP a few times and that was no bigger and best part was I had a mea
83 SeaBosDca : Why would you fill up an aircraft with over 4500 nm range (a 747-100) for a 3000 nm flight? The JFK-CDG sector is very short as TATL flights go. A di
84 XFSUgimpLB41X : Min fuel for landing is 45 minutes of reserve plus whatever fuel is required to get to your alternate. You'll typically want to land with more just in
85 Aviationbuff08 : I do believe a that DL is at the ALPA scope limit of the number of 76 seat aircraft that it can operate. (the E175 & CRJ900) So the replacing the DC 9
86 XFSUgimpLB41X : ding ding ding! I will gladly shut this airline down before any more scope is given up...
87 DeltaL1011man : IIRC all 25 are going to click. I assume he is talking about the few exYX 717s sitting in VCV waitinf to go to Mexico. hope so. to a point sure but i
88 DeltaL1011man : My bet is on 63. * Delta Air Lines (16) * Japan Japan Airlines (16) * People's Republic of China China Southern (11)(I don't think they will take the
89 Trucker : Since you're a pilot and I'm not, I'm not challenging you on this but I am a bit confused. I seem to recall MaxQ once posting that on a 752 flight fr
90 DeltaL1011man : huh? I guess the people who didn't know the contract. The contact has up to 50 70 seat jets. MQ had 25. They are adding 22, AA did get anything more
91 777236ER : Thanks to that you've ensured I'm never going to fly COex/ExpressJet.
92 Mayor : Thereby, throwing everyone else that works for the airline, under the bus (again!)
93 Quickmover : Didn't Ozark used to fly STL-SAN with dc9s?
94 Access-Air : I agree...The DC9s are a great machines and its a shame that we are being packed like sardines into the likes of these plastic Regional jets. Well I
95 Mayor : Well, DL is planning on reducing the amount of 50 seat RJs that it uses, probably to eventually eliminate them, altogether.
96 Post contains links and images Ditzyboy : Yes. In DC-9-34s. They were replaced by M82s eventually. View Large View MediumPhoto © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
97 Trucker : That's debatable. MQ had 25 CR7s. The APA thought per the contract that's all they could have. AA found a loophole in the contract where they could o
98 Richierich : I always laugh whenever this issue comes up. People on this site make it sound like this is a regular event. JetBlue diverts its east coast to west c
99 XFSUgimpLB41X : If DL HAS to outsource more flying to survive, thereby giving away more mainline jobs, it does not need to exist. I will not be responsible for furth
100 XFSUgimpLB41X : Depending on runway legnth and second stage climb requirements, the 757 can come very close if not pull off the elusive full seats-full tanks... DUS-
101 Mayor : If this makes your conscience feel better when the rest of the employees are out of work, go for it. Look, I don't want to hijack this thread as both
102 KingAir200 : That would require a gate being open, which, at the time of the night that the flight arrived from PHL, there might not have been. Even though NW has
103 ExFWAOONW : Huh? I seem to recall the A320 could have either a positive or negative stab setting when doing weight and balance calcs. A fact that several people
104 Nwaesc : ...And I'd gladly support you, as long as that was a two-way street toward ACS... The fact is, however, that DALPA leadership will be glad handing RA
105 Cv640 : I've done this flight twice and haven't diverted yet. I'm sure with winds and maybe a hold you'd have to divert. On normal trips it shouldn't be an is
106 PGNCS : No they wouldn't take off without the required fuel, but there are times an alternate airport is not required. That's not to say a diversion can't ha
107 Ditzyboy : I totally agree that there is too much outsourcing, but isn't that where you came from? (And good on you for climbing the ranks!) If airlines only fl
108 KingAir200 : I can't speak for that, but I can't remember the last time I pulled up a load plan in WorldFlight for an Airbus flight and saw it was weight or balan
109 Mayor : Only because they had the most to give. While you guys were getting huge pay raises, year after year, ACS hadn't had a pay raise in like 10 years, at
110 XFSUgimpLB41X : CV640 can help me out here.... (how's it going, CV? going anywhere on this bid?) The 9 burns around 6000 an hour from what I've observed. Reserve fue
111 757ops : I have non-rev'd many times MSP-LGA or JFK on NW DC-9 aircraft, never had to stop either way
112 Mayor : From where most of us non-pilots in the airline industry, sit, the big picture is a little blurry when it comes to pilot pay. Personally, I think it'
113 Jetlanta : Airlines would be thrilled to insource all their flying if pilots would agree to wages that are ECONOMICAL. The problem is that this industry has in
114 Mayor : Thanks for clearing up the "big picture" for ALL of us.
115 Trucker : Now this really surprises me. I thought EVERY flight had to have an alternate airport and you had to carry the fuel to get to it. Let me fly this arg
116 XFSUgimpLB41X : For domestic flights and certain international flights, if 1 hour before to 1 hour after landing the ceiling is 2000 feet or better and 3 miles visib
117 Nwaesc : I thought so too, but I've seen a few releases of late w/o an alternate listed... (Besides Amerijet) NWA in '98? Me either. See my comments in post #
118 Mayor : You'll also see something from DALPA in regards to how the pilots have given up so much, as though they are the only ones that have sacrificed. It ha
119 DeltaL1011man : never mind..........Not going to get into it with some people who just hate pilots making money, when its ok for people like RA to make a bunch of mon
120 XFSUgimpLB41X : The rule I mentioned in my post has been around for many many....many years. You don't lug around alternate fuel if you don't need it. We also have a
121 BMI727 : What about Comair?
122 Jetlanta : This is precisely the point. Regionals pay low wages precisely because that is what is necessary to make the economics work. If they didn't they woul
123 DeltaL1011man : Just a note, outside of the 9E and I believe OO CR9s DL and NW has paid for all of the 76 seaters at DCI. Matter of fact Delta used the cash they got
124 XFSUgimpLB41X : Do I have to pretend that that you know what you're talking about here... because DL bought most of those 76 seaters! Care to try again?
125 DeltaL1011man : here i'll just put the numbers out there make it easier. Delta owns 64 CR9s, 27 CR7s, and 36 E75s. (and FYI they only own 8 77Ls......kinda hard to s
126 Gener8tion : I used to "work" on YX (Midwest) DC9 and D9S flights from Milwaukee to Miami, Tampa, Ft. Lauderdale, Orlando, Ft. Myers.... all NONSTOP. The Omaha bas
127 NWAESC : Yep. Fair enough. Not for nothing, but these releases were for Dc9's, so the CAT III part is n/a. Of course! I knew I forgot (at least) one. As for t
128 DeltaL1011man : I believe the DALPA has CR9 rates in this contract(along with E90 and 739ER)
129 Trucker : Isn't this pretty much how it works throughout the industry? AA owns the MQ aircraft. Heck, FX even owns the caravans they have others fly for them.
130 Jetlanta : I used the 76-seaters as an example because that's what you were talking about. My point applies to the entire regional fleet. I'll grant you that th
131 CV640 : Can't we all get along? Going back to the topic on hand, both my trips were in -30 models. Some still have aux tanks, as do some of our -50's. The -40
132 DeltaL1011man : What do you call economical? There peers? then they are in the same boat as all the others, RAH? so they should be treated like crap? I know that som
133 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : For the record, I'm not talking to Jet here, just kinda everyone who likes to go after pilots(or any employees) but then they are happy when the CEO
134 PGNCS : DALPA has never said they were the only ones who sacrificed. It's you who consistently makes inflammatory remarks about DALPA throwing other employee
135 Cubsrule : One other thing to keep in mind is that the -9s (particularly the 50s) can have runway performance issues when it is hot; that's why they pulled them
136 XFSUgimpLB41X : Whoops again! Why would I leave the management stuff to you if you can't get any of it right? Your education on economics and managing apparently is
137 Mayor : It's not that we hate them making money......it's the attitude, that when they have to give back, they act like they're the only ones to have made a
138 DashTrash : Compared to operating costs and executive waste, crew costs are a drop in the bucket. We could fly them for free and the office types would complain
139 Mayor : That was only the last 10 years of the 33 1/2 I worked there, not as a pilot. As you probably know, we were non-union......so, no negotiations, BUT,
140 Ocracoke : Sounds like a case of "it was perfectly fine for me to milk it to get me a piece of the pie, but screw all those behind me." Fixed it for you.
141 DeltaL1011man : All I can tell you is you shoulda voted for a union.
142 Mayor : Would that have changed the pilots' attitude?? I doubt it.
143 DeltaL1011man : May not but at the same time you can't blame anything on the pilots, or that ACS didn't get pay raises etc, the vote down a union. The pilots get wha
144 Mayor : You're right, you aren't and you've misinterpreted what I've said. All I said that while the pilots were getting their payraises, we weren't and yet,
145 DeltaL1011man : I get that, but in a way they did give alot more back than most.....i mean that retirement thats now gone was a pretty big deal.
146 Mayor : That's because they had more to give.........ACS, etc. had already been squeezed dry, even before the BK.
147 Yellowtail : I would be a couple of the those TATL CO flight (TXL, LIS) get topped up....maybe a couple of the QF MEL flights. Maybe CMs PTY-EZE and a couple of B
148 XFSUgimpLB41X : It's a case of helping those behind me and ensuring they have an opportunity to make it to the top instead of peaking at the regional level. More mai
149 FlyPNS1 : However, your argument falls apart when you consider that the regional aircraft that management brought in to replace those high paid mainline had HI
150 ExFWAOONW : I'm going on memory here and it was an embarrassing situation and wasn't widely published, so bear with me. IIRC, the problem was that cargo/pax load
151 Srbmod : This discussion has veered well off the original topic. Discussions about pilot pay, the introduction of regional jets that replaced mainline a/c are
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