DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 6603 posts, RR: 51 Posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11610 times:
I have only been following civil aviation for a few years now, and besides WN opening every new city into a hub (or whatever you call it,) how does a hub come about? Is it usually a small build up or a sudden orgy of flights?
I know the airlines are doing pretty bad still, but does anyone see an airline opening something new in the future (so far all I see are hubs closing)? I can't think of anything new really, but MCI is a nice sized airport no one has hubbed (or wants I guess)
IFlyATA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 238 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11597 times:
Depends on the market...
I think what you see first though are focus cities, which then grow into hubs. For example, UA in SAT, US in FLL, NW in IND. Then, once a focus city is established, it is slowly grown into a hub (if at all, 2/3 of those examples above didn't even survive as focus cities).
A lot of hubs develop overnight with mergers or acquisition (of whole airlines or just chunks of them). For example, AA created its MIA hub with the purchase of Eastern's Central/South America routes from MIA.
Of course, there are always exceptions in this industry, but that's what I've generally observed.
Rampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3016 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11528 times:
MCI has served as a hub, a small hub, on several occasions. Most recently, Midwest has attempted MCI as a small hub or focus city, and may pay attention to it more. Vanguard was based there, used as a hub. Braniff mark II or III (can't remember) used MCI as a hub in the late 80s, even completely abandoning DFW as a hub, their historical home. BN, the original, had pretty large operations there anyhow. Eastern tried a small hub, or maybe incipient hub, for a year or two, but don't know the dates. Fact is, all these failures suggest that it's hard for MCI to act as a hub. It's a large, but not very large, metro area. Smaller cities have been used for hubs (but aside from SLC, most of these also seem to be falling by the wayside). Finally, it's been said that the existing terminal design -- excellent for parking and getting to/from your flight -- is very poor for connections.
More MCI experts would weigh in for you, I'm sure.
As for other options, I always wondered why SAT didn't catch on as a hub for someone who wanted a southern tier connection point. IAH and DFW work well enough for that, so could SAT. It's a large city, with both business and tourism demands. A UAx carrier attempted a hub-like operation a few years ago, but it quickly fell apart. Don't know the details.
Directorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1626 posts, RR: 11 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11215 times:
No hub can, or will be created 'overnight'. For a true hub, or even a focus operation (as opposed to a very large spoke) to materialise, an airline needs aircraft, a workforce. I don't think any airline has ever purchased say, 30-40 , hired a few thousand employees and published a timetable within a week.
Similarly, if an airline withdraws from a hub, it will not shut down operations overnight. Usually it will take anything from a few months (if it's a small operation) to a few years. Simply because these aircraft now made redundant need to be deployed somewhere, and having dozens of aircraft all sit idle doing nothing earns no revenue.
One notable exception to the rule is Ryanair, it literally decides it wants a hub/focus city and opens one. Not a massive base, but one all the same. Closest thing to a planned hub, opened on a whim (although they usually make money). It's almost like real-life Airline Mogul, if you play the game.
Flyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1775 posts, RR: 9 Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11199 times:
I'm not sure of the exact numbers but I know that when DL hubbed CVG, overnight there was a massive increase in the number of flights DL added, something like 30-50 additional flights added overnight. I'm not sure if you can determine a real trend, but I guess I would say that the airline would have to have a large presence at the airport first, and if the station is performing well, the community offers incentives and the location is good, then the airline might decide to hub it.
Cody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1924 posts, RR: 9 Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10927 times:
In the cases of hubs for America West at Columbus and Eastern at Kansas City, neither carrier even served those cities prior to them being hubs. They just announced new service there to about six to ten destinations overnight. So they went from having no presence to having the largest presence withink a 24-hour period.
BOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 846 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10793 times:
It varies a huge amount.
A lot of the first hubs were "created" out of what were, I guess, very major cities on an airline's point-to-point network. AA's original hubs at ORD and DFW were big AA cities that got "converted" into hubs in 1981. If you looked at an AA route map from 1935 and had to guess what its hubs would be in 2005, you could pretty easily guess that two of them might be in those cities (not those airports, since they were decades away). Same for DL in ATL. These didn't start out as a hubs, just cities at which two "lines" crossed, which is basically the 1930s equivalent of a hub. (CHI is the ultimate "organic" hub, arguably not even of an airline but of the entire US airline network in the old days, basically because it was the biggest city that wasn't NYC and thus not on a coast. It's not a coincidence that the US' two traditional "flagship" or "mainline" domestic carriers [pun intended] still each have a hub in ORD.)
AA's RDU hub would be an example of the exact opposite: it literally became a hub overnight in 1987. AA said, "We want a hub in the southeast," and they decided to put it in RDU. (Well, others already had ATL and CLT! ) It went from being a small spoke with around ten flights a day to a hub with around a hundred literally overnight. And in 1995 when the hub closed down it was the same story: one day it was a hub, the next day it was not only not a hub, but not even a major spoke.
As for the future, I don't really see new hubs. De facto hubs like WN has (there are no real WN hubs), yes, but not actual hubs. As we move in the direction of having fewer major airlines, there will be fewer hubs, but they'll be really big hubs. Not only do I not see hubs in places like MCI, but I don't see CVG, MEM or CLE lasting. I don't even see hubs that don't have large amounts of international traffic lasting. The only hubs that will last will be ones like ATL and DFW that can connect people to a lot of places, or ones like MIA, which combine very large O&D markets and intensive service to a specific region of the world to make up for their relative lack of size and "edge" geography (EWR, MIA, SFO etc. are on the "edges" of the continent, jumping-off points to other continents, as opposed to inland hubs like ATL and DFW).
DeltaFFinDFW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1402 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10658 times:
Quoting Directorguy (Reply 3): Similarly, if an airline withdraws from a hub, it will not shut down operations overnight. Usually it will take anything from a few months (if it's a small operation) to a few years. Simply because these aircraft now made redundant need to be deployed somewhere, and having dozens of aircraft all sit idle doing nothing earns no revenue.
Umm, DFW would disagree with you. Operation Clockwork dehubbed DL's DFW hub on Jan 31, 2005. We went from around 150 flights to 21 overnight. Yes, they started dismantling the over 250 flights a day a few months earlier, but the last few days still had a large number of flights.
BOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1955 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9716 times:
If you're willing to call it a hub, B6 started BOS with about 10 flights to 5 destinations back in 2004 and they had one or two gates in Terminal E. But then in early 2006 Terminal A was finished, and DL moved over there, vacating their gates in Terminal C. As a result, B6 took over (or started to take over) the 11 gates available, and by announcing either a new route or a new addition of flights every few months, they are now the largest carrier at BOS and will have about 75 flights to 35 cities, and they're not even done yet!
While I'm here, I'll wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all!
Deltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1617 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9025 times:
In the book "Hard Landing" there is a whole chapter dedicated to the birth of the AA hub at DFW, for most part it was done over night. I think between 1978 and 1981 was when most of the hubs of today were established and although they had an initial bang at conception, it took most of the 80s to grow them...i.e. the hubs back then started with 5 or 6 banks (maybe as few as 3) and now most are up to 13+.
I remember CO at Houston actually grew very slow. I don't think they had more than 100 flights there between 1980 and 1985. Same with HP at PHX at the time. It took them about 5-7 years to get to 200 flights (their peak) a day at PHX.
Deltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1617 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8671 times:
In the 1940s through the 70s, the gov't regulated the airlines. That meant they decided what routes and fares to charge. So basically the airlines picked geographical regions of the country and served them. If you lived in south, you had Delta. If you went to Europe, you flew Pan AM or TWA, if you lived in Northeast and Pennsylvania and puddle hopped, you flew ALlegheny (now USAIrways). These airlines had fixed number of planes.
THEN, they deregulated. This meant airlines could fly to any city in the US, at any fare on any plane that could handle the mission. American was headquartered in New York City at the time (late 1970s) and it was Robert Crandall who figured to serve every city in the country coast to coast they would have to go to a hub, so they moved in on DFW and "banked" O'hare up. Allegheny changed its name to USAIr and quickly built Pittsburgh up, Delta official affirmed Atlanta. So now airlines could fly coast to coast with the same number of planes they had dedicated to regional operations.
Piedmont was another airline that flew more point to point in the carolinas that strategically and intentionally built CLT up. I do believe that was an "overnight" deal with a bunch of flights added at once, and then more service over the year.
Back in the 80s, before horrors of 10 hour tarmac holds, bad storms, and delays that would domino effect the whole country (all the bad things to a hub) airlines were quite proud of these creations. If you buy any timetable on Ebay from say USAir, Piedomont, AA, UAL, etc in the 1980s, they all have one page adverts bragging about how their hubs are the best, which ones, what service they are adding to them, etc.
Deltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1617 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8627 times:
Oh and one last point, I remember in the late 1980s when both AA and DL thought the hub was the way of the future. AA was very big into promoting and opening hubs beyond DFW, like Nashville, San Jose and Raleigh. I remember when DL opened CVG, it wasn't major overnight, maybe like less than 100 flights. I remember they had for years just one daily 757 flight from CVG to SFO and LAX, the slowly added a second, third, fourth flight, then Europe, so on and so forth
ThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2297 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6406 times:
Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 6):
AA's RDU hub would be an example of the exact opposite: it literally became a hub overnight in 1987. AA said, "We want a hub in the southeast," and they decided to put it in RDU. (Well, others already had ATL and CLT! Wink ) It went from being a small spoke with around ten flights a day to a hub with around a hundred literally overnight. And in 1995 when the hub closed down it was the same story: one day it was a hub, the next day it was not only not a hub, but not even a major spoke.
CODCA09 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 155 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6299 times:
Last last true new hub to be created by an airline from scratch in the last ten years would be Independence Air's hub at IAD. Between June 16, 2004 & September 1st the carrier started service to 35 cities with over 325 daily flights. To call their IAD hub start up a complete failure is the understatement of the century.
Their load factors were in the 40% range and the carrier was burning through $3.5million a day. Independence Air proved that creating a full hub from scratch overnight is a really bad idea.
BOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 846 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6129 times:
I disagree with those who say that AA's DFW hub was built overnight. While it was not set up as a hub previously, Dallas and Ft. Worth were two of the first cities AA served and AA had a very large presence there even during regulation.
DL's DFW hub on the other hand, while not built overnight, was certainly dismantled more or less overnight.
AirportGuy1971 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6114 times:
At start-up new Airlines "create" Hubs.
West Pac did it over night in COS
Frontier did it over night in DEN
Vanguard did it over night in MCI
jetBlue did it over night in JFK
Skybus *shudder* did it over night in CMH
Virgin America did it over night in SFO...
West Pac did it over night in COS
Frontier did it over night in DEN
Vanguard did it over night in MCI
jetBlue did it over night in JFK
Skybus *shudder* did it over night in CMH
Virgin America did it over night in SFO...
Of course they offered very limited schedules and little to no connections. SkyBus noconnections, and probably not too many Bismarck-DEN-xxx Frontier connections when they started up.
Western Pacific and Vanguard moreso.
JohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1641 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6037 times:
Here's a synopsis of how Northwest/Delta's Memphis hub came to be:
- Started in the early 1960s as Southern Airways built the airport into a hub, mostly regional flights with DC-9s, Convair 580s and Metros.
- Republic Airlines formed from the merger of Southern and North Central; Memphis remained a key connecting point for the merged carriers. Memphis was at this point a "two-hub city" with Republic and Delta both operating hubs, albeit rather small ones, at the airport.
- Almost overnight when Delta vastly scaled back their Memphis hub in the early 1980s, Republic correspondingly vastly scaled up their MEM operation, adding nonstops to, among other places, the west coast and also introducing 757 service.
- With the 1986 Northwest-Republic merger, Memphis remained as one of the combined carrier's domestic hubs. As a result of the merger, Memphis gained its first-ever transatlantic route in 1995 with KLM, and 14 years later the flight is still running, now under the auspices of Delta.
- Against all odds, MEM is once again a hub for Delta Airlines. How long that will continue is anyone's guess, but the landscape of the hub has changed very little since the Northwest-Delta merger. Some destinations have been added, some removed.
Delta's Memphis operation is perhaps not the oldest, but certainly one of the oldest, hubs in the United States.
Tommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6442 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5864 times:
Great thread! I would like to question what happened to some smaller focus cities such as UAEX at SAT. I remember them flying SAT-MSY back in 2006, I don't think it lasted much longer than that. Also US at FLL in 2004 (also AA.) I remember US announcing EWR-FLL with a 319 in early 2004 and tried to buy dirt cheap tickets on it using Gofares (LOL...)
UA at CLE was an interesting situation. Similar to DL down in MEM and republic taking it over, CO did the same thing with CLE in the late 1980s when UA started to draw down ops. I guess the same thing could be said with the defunct Midway airlines at RDU when AA started to draw down ops in the late 1990s.
CO at DEN? I guess they were in such deep bankruptcy during the mid-1990s that they couldn't afford to keep it. Either that or UA was really kicking their asses. Some sources say that CO would do anything to get it back because they miss their western presence very much. Probably one of the reasons for CO's current interest in UA as well.
I have to question US at BWI. It was a such a large hub for them post-piedmont but at some point this decade profitability ran out and yields started to dry as well. I suppose US was trying to focus on DCA instead.
Then of course there were the complete mini-hub failures such at TW at ATL and UA at MCO during the early 1990s.
"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
Vegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5198 times:
Quoting JohnJ (Reply 22): Memphis was at this point a "two-hub city" with Republic and Delta both operating hubs, albeit rather small ones, at the airport.
I'm thinking DL got their big push into MEM back when they bought Chicago and Southern in the mid '50's as that was one of C & S's larger stations with flights to the major northern cities, and DL with flights on to the major southern cities.
Quoting JohnJ (Reply 22): - Almost overnight when Delta vastly scaled back their Memphis hub in the early 1980s, Republic correspondingly vastly scaled up their MEM operation, adding nonstops to, among other places, the west coast and also introducing 757 service.
I would venture that this corresponded with Republic taking down the last of what was the Southern hub in ATL and using the resources to boost their presence in MEM. Almost seemed like DL and Republic had a gentleman's agreement not to compete at each others hubs as Republic consolidated in MEM and DL consolidated in ATL.
As a side note regarding Republic and their hubs, they basically had two western hubs with the purchase and merger of Hughes Air West, PHX and LAS. PHX was the larger of the two hubs, LAS was around 40-45 departures a day. Both were reduced to spokes by Steve Wolf during end of '82/early '83. Wolf consolidated their fleet in DTW, MEM, and MSP, basically what became the backbone of NW's domestic service after the Republic/Northwest Orient merger.
25 ItalianFlyer: Yup...and UA's 'hub' presence in CLE (and the DC area for that matter) date back to Capital Airlines...much like DL's acquisition of C&S laid the gro
26 JohnJ: I agree here. C&S was actually a large Memphis-based airline and Delta promptly moved the HQ to Atlanta after the merger. I've often wondered how Mem
27 N702ML: What about Piedmont in Dayton and Baltimore? What about when the first Midway Airlines opened a second hub at Philadelphia overnight? What about when
28 FrmrCAPCADET: Alice, in wonderland, would be likely to hear that a hub often is 'whatever the speaker wishes it to be'. Some observations (incomplete) regarding the
29 CF6PPE: Reference the below linked thread with a link to the Memphis Commercial Appeal story about the retirement of the then MEM Operations Director Bob Mar
30 Britannia25: I am not so sure about American hubs but in Europe I think Munich has only become a major hub for Lufthansa relatively recently - I would say in the l
31 Lexy: As always John, great post! I just love your knowledge when it comes to MEM and its airport. Fellas, take a good long look at this and you'll easily
32 AirFrnt: The problem with MCI is both the size of it's metro area (handicapped by a lower propensity to travel by air then the mountain west states) and far m
33 PacNWjet: Just a question here, so please don't jump all over me if my assumptions are wrong: Awhile back Delta acquired rights to several cities in Asia from P
34 Nonrev: Just a quick point: Don't confuse a 'Hub' with an airlines main base of operations. A hub is literally called such because the spokes (i.e. the routes
35 BOACCunard: Certainly. But some airlines do officially designate hubs and even focus cities. For example, AA designates DFW, ORD, MIA and JFK as hubs. Neverthele
36 Mariner: That's a modern interpretation of it, probably since Robert Crandall at American. My father - and other BOAC staff - referred to LHR as a hub back in
37 MtnWest1979: Yes that is correct. They were going to connect pax to CO ( who still had decent hub in DEN at the time IIRC). Then when CO scaled down, F9 decided t
38 Vctony: Of course they do. Back in 2001 I flew WN from PHX-STL-DTW and back. The DTW-STL flight was delayed and WN held up (delayed) the STL-PHX flight to ac
39 Steeler83: " target=_blank>http://www.departedflights.com/USPIT....html I remember when US downgraded PIT to a focus city. I can't believe that US cut roughly 1
40 BOACCunard: I agree. Even if DL does not close MEM and/or CVG in the near future, I don't see them surviving in the long term. Nor CLE, which is surely gone if C
41 JBAirwaysFan: I remember reading somewhere that DL had some sort of hub at ORD in the 1990s. What's the story with that?
42 BOACCunard: DL never had a hub at ORD. At deregulation AA and UA were ORD's biggest carriers but DL, NW and TW also had quite large operations, what would be dec
43 DJMEL: QF slowly built up CNS as an International Hub from 1988 as it went from a one gate International Terminal stuck in the middle of Domestic Terminal be
44 JBAirwaysFan: I just remember where I read about that. It was Wikipedia, enough said on that. When I read that, I thought that was nuts, and I never EVER recalled
45 Rampart: I agree that ORD was more fragmented than now, and certainly UA and AA were the biggest shares of that pie. Airlines just prior to Deregulation were
46 Steeler83: Isn't IAD getting something of a make-over or expansion? I see CO's CLE ops being transfered down to IAD if/when that goes through. It will have a ne
47 BOACCunard: Indeed. But IMHO the only airport that could be called a hub for DL before deregulation is ATL. Indeed, one of the few airports that could really be
48 Mtaabq: I wouldn't call myself at MCI expert but I will agree that MCI is not good for connections, having done several WN connections there over the years.
49 Tommy767: I see that too. CLE will most likely remain as a focus city with an F/A base with core flights to all the markets that can sustain profitability in t
50 ItalianFlyer: Not to get too o.t., but in the circle of life there is birth and death...here are some pics crankyflier took of STL a few days ago. Talk about depres
51 Steeler83: You want to feel better? Try looking up recent pics of inside the PIT airside terminal. Both A and B are blocked off. A is blocked off just beyond A5
52 Lexy: Well at BNA, AA had made the decision to build it into a Hub when they were in the old terminal building on the west side of the field. It was in the