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Downsizing On Frontier In DEN?  
User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5985 times:

Why is Republic pretty much sabotaging what Frontier has built for the benefit of Midwest? How much more downsizing are we going to see?? I though the E90s were supposed to be put in MKE to replace the 717 flying. And its not like Republic couldn’t purchase second hand 319’s to base in MKE. Frontier HAD a good thing going in DEN before Republic came also and started shredding it. I just don’t get it.

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5978 times:
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They have 3 x A320 - new - coming in during the first six months of 2010.  confused 

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

They have the money to buy USAirways E90s, but not for 319s??

User currently offlineKingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1302 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5938 times:



Quoting PI731 (Reply 2):
They have the money to buy USAirways E90s, but not for 319s??

Bedford was just in France about 2 weeks ago talking with Airbus. I want more A320s, and I would love to see some A321s. As for the USAirways deal, you need to do a little research on that transaction. I believe RAH forgave USAirways debt to them so there was no purchase money involved.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24805 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5913 times:

Per the press release at the time, it was Republic applying $35mil loan from US towards the sale, but also assuming the outstanding debt on the relative new aircraft.
I assume if someone fishes thru SEC filings, they can came up with the total cost value, but the 10 planes were not free by any means.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5887 times:
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Quoting PI731 (Reply 2):
They have the money to buy USAirways E90s, but not for 319s??

The E190 is an excellent, useful aircraft. JetBlue has 'em.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5832 times:

First of all, I totally agree I don’t the details on the US E90 deal. Second of all, with what Midwest was, (717 being their work horse of the fleet) replacing the 717 flying with E90’s seemed logical to me. I would think that Republic would want to keep what Frontier had built (A now profitable hub) together. And build up MKE with the E90s and acquire some second hand 319/320 till new ones came on board. So they wouldn‘t have to disrupt the DEN operation. What am I missing??

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5819 times:
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Quoting PI731 (Reply 6):
What am I missing??

That the two airlines are one airline now, with two hubs, a focus city and an intermingled fleet?
Big version: Width: 500 Height: 500 File size: 110kb


Just a guess.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePI731 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5780 times:

I just don’t get it. I’m sorry, I’m trying to understand what their vision is exactly. For Frontiers sake, I Hopefully its works.

User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Downsizing in Plane Capacities or Cutting routes out of DEN?

I am confused here a bit too, I know YX is replacing 717s with E190s and mainly out of MCI/MKE (okay) and F9 is still 319/320 strong (okay)? but downsizing? DEN hub dismantlement and focus on MKE?

what is the downsize focus?



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12872 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5530 times:
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To me the E190's make sense as not every route will fill an A319.

But how much downsizing is planned for F9? I'm behind on the latest summary. I did a bunch of googling and the only furloughs for F9 I found were due to merging F9/YX stations. (Or old furloughs due to 'right sizing' for bankruptcy exit.) So I'm missing a detail. I see there are 56 pilots on furlough, but those do not seem to be recent.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...s/major-national-lcc/frontier.html

Any links to a summary are appreciated.

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 9):
what is the downsize focus?

Putting both F9 and YX onto profitable ground.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5512 times:
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Quoting Malaysia (Reply 9):
Downsizing in Plane Capacities

Frontier has always had need of an aircraft with a bit less capacity than the Airbus during the winter months and some of those routes are too far the the Q400.

So a few E190s are assigned to DEN while four or five A31's are at MKE. The combined airline is right-sizing the aircraft to the routes and frequencies.

They are also adding routes from DEN - such as FAI, SDF and MSY - and as noted, they have 3 x A320's coming in soon.

I assume those new A320's will start appearing in the summer schedule fairly soon.

There are also the remaining E190's to come in, but I believe (?) most of those will be based at MKE.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2824 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5231 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):

The E190 is an excellent, useful aircraft. JetBlue has 'em.

I really am not a fan of the E190s operating dynamics. Again, as long as fuel costs remain low, it's fine. But sooner or later fuel prices will make the E190s unsustainable.


User currently offlineBigsky09 From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5177 times:



Quoting PI731 (Thread starter):
Why is Republic pretty much sabotaging what Frontier has built for the benefit of Midwest? How much more downsizing are we going to see?? I though the E90s were supposed to be put in MKE to replace the 717 flying. And its not like Republic couldn’t purchase second hand 319’s to base in MKE. Frontier HAD a good thing going in DEN before Republic came also and started shredding it. I just don’t get it.

I think we all knew this was coming. I don't think Frontier as a whole will get smaller, they will grow, but they will pull back at DEN as they have already started a little. It's probably a good thing with all the competition at DEN. We knew one of the airlines had to give, and it wasn't going to be WN!!!


User currently offlineBoydatageek From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5158 times:



Quoting PI731 (Reply 6):
What am I missing??

If I recall correctly from the days when I knew this stuff -- DEN has surprisingly seasonal traffic, and that being in the SUMMER not winter! The Major leisure (read SUN) markets from MKE are mostly in the demand in Winter when in the Past Sun Country was able to fill DC-10 to the sun.

Come April, I would imagine that the Florida routes will be served with the Republic Jets and more of the Airbus Jets will concentrate on Denver.

This aircraft flexability is very useful, and appears to be being used well.


User currently offlineIndyWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5088 times:

I'm not sure why people throw fits and panic about things like this. Sabotaging? Shredding?

How about trying to successfully run an airline by matching capacity / demand?

Why would a company like Republic purchase F9/YX to "shred" them and "sabotage" them when they want to MAKE money off of them?

As an RAH employee, we get kinda sick of all the commentary on every little move made.

All I can say is, the F9 employees I've come into contact with have been some outstanding folks (and wow - they can party!).


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5042 times:
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Quoting Bigsky09 (Reply 13):
I think we all knew this was coming.

What was coming? That the new airline would buy a big bunch of new aircraft?

Well, yes, I knew the A320's were coming, from before the auction.

I didn't actually know about the 10 x E190's until it happened, but it seemed pretty obvious that it must happen.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBigsky09 From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4266 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
What was coming? That the new airline would buy a big bunch of new aircraft?

LOL! No Mariner, the down sizing of DEN for F9. But congrats on the new A/C.


User currently onlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2872 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4234 times:



Quoting Airfrnt (Reply 12):
I really am not a fan of the E190s operating dynamics. Again, as long as fuel costs remain low, it's fine. But sooner or later fuel prices will make the E190s unsustainable.

At this point, fuel costs is not the concern for these a/c. The mx/materiel costs associated with this a/c are the major cost issue...



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24805 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3488 times:



Quoting Airfrnt (Reply 12):
I really am not a fan of the E190s operating dynamics. Again, as long as fuel costs remain low, it's fine. But sooner or later fuel prices will make the E190s unsustainable.

Yes a 100 seater it can be challenging to generate enough revenue on to cover cost if fuel were to spike significantly again, but I can assure you that Republic is hell of a lot better positioned with the E190 then they would be if the B717 was the 100 seater they had to rely on.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3325 times:



Quoting PI731 (Thread starter):
I though the E90s were supposed to be put in MKE to replace the 717 flying.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 1):
They have 3 x A320 - new - coming in during the first six months of 2010. confused

Mariner knows that the A319s in MKE came by downgrading DEN A319s to E190s but he intends instead to focus on the coming A320s which may or may not be in DEN and may or may not simply replace A319s coming off lease.

Quoting PI731 (Thread starter):
Frontier HAD a good thing going in DEN before Republic came also and started shredding it. I just don’t get it.

If the rumors about Lynx shuffling off to CO Express are true I would agree that Republic seems to be cannibalizing DEN to fight FL in MKE while ignoring the growing WN threat.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
The E190 is an excellent, useful aircraft. JetBlue has 'em.

True, but as often ignored, JFK is at sea level and DEN is 5,280 feet above. The plane is pretty poor at that altitude for much of the year in terms of takeoff performance. Thus, it has restricted range operation in DEN in the Summer. The single good thing about the A318 was that it was overpowered for its size (which also made it a fuel hog) and that meant it could do anything in DEN. The E190 is the opposite...more efficient, but weight restricted.


User currently offlineKingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1302 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3251 times:

Quoting Enilria (Reply 20):
True, but as often ignored, JFK is at sea level and DEN is 5,280 feet above.

Do you think B6 only flies the E190s to airports at sea level?

Quoting Enilria (Reply 20):
If the rumors about Lynx shuffling off to CO Express are true I would agree that Republic seems to be cannibalizing DEN to fight FL in MKE while ignoring the growing WN threat.

You seem to be obsessed with WN. How is Republic cannibalizing DEN? By moving 5 Airbus to MKE to make more money on the long haul leisure markets? What a joke. F9 still has 150-160 departures a day from Denver. If Lynx flies for CO that is still not canibalizing DEN for a fight in MKE. The Q's will go to one of three markets, IAH, EWR or CLE. Lynx is only about 35 departures from DEN. I will have to confirm that number. If some Q's operate on a fee per departure for another airline, I have no doubt those exisiting Lynx routes from DEN (FAR, BIL, etc) will be replaced by any of RAH's regional aircraft. Take your pick - E135, E140, E145, CRJ, E170, E175, E190. JAC is returning this year, not with a Q but with a larger E190.

RAH is ignoring WN, the growing threat as you call? I can't believe even you believe that, but hey, put it out there. Someone might just believe it. It just won't be the common sense populous.

[Edited 2009-12-30 17:27:04]


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3191 times:
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Quoting Enilria (Reply 20):
Mariner knows that the A319s in MKE came by downgrading DEN A319s to E190s but he intends instead to focus on the coming A320s which may or may not be in DEN and may or may not simply replace A319s coming off lease.

No, sir.

He knows that the A319's have not left the fleet and are continuing to earn money for Frontier.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12872 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3054 times:
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Quoting Boydatageek (Reply 14):
If I recall correctly from the days when I knew this stuff -- DEN has surprisingly seasonal traffic, and that being in the SUMMER not winter! The Major leisure (read SUN) markets from MKE are mostly in the demand in Winter when in the Past Sun Country was able to fill DC-10 to the sun.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of the counter-seasonality of the two markets. So a little 'synergy.'  Wink  duck 

I couldn't resist a little marketing terminology.  spin 

So that implies the shift could be seasonal. But how will they handle crewing? Are any F9 crews being based in MKE?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3044 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 23):
Are any F9 crews being based in MKE?

Starting 4/1, yes.

In the mean time, the flights are being staffed from Denver and through MKE.

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
25 PI731 : Thank you for your imput! You guys have answered a lot of my questions. If it is true that the Q’s are going to CAL, makes me wonder why Republic is
26 TheGreatChecko : If you ask me, it's because Bedford has a bad case of shiny jet syndrome and would rather fly a jet, which burns twice the amount of fuel, into the c
27 BMI727 : As do I, and I have been one of the biggest advocates on A*net for keeping the Q400s since I think that on certain routes they can give a definite co
28 Mariner : No decision has been made public about the Q400 - at the moment there are only rumors. This particular rumor is largely based on something posted on
29 SCCutler : Y'know, that combined system route map... looks like a lot of flexibility there, and I think they are smart to build with the Frontier brand. Maybe it
30 KingCavalier : I said I would confirm the number of Lynx departures from DEN. L3 operates 38 daily Q400 flights from DEN. RW operates 19 E190 departures. F9 operate
31 KingCavalier : In addition to the increased frequency to existing markets, F9 resumed service to TUL on August 2, 2009, to RSW on November 21, 2009, to SDF on April
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