CX288 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8996 times:
Lufthansa is selling two A-340 to the German Air Force (Flugbereitschaft) for VIP Government transport.
Re the A-330, I suspect they will be sourced from the FRA-based fleet for MUC only has a very small number of A-330 and if they decide to keep them based there, a certain minimum number of frames is required in my opinion.
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3228 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8098 times:
Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 8): Did I miss that LH was adding Dusseldorf in addition to Munich and Frankfurt? Or are you connecting from DUS to the MUC or FRA flights.
Two years ago, LH started a small long-haul operation from DUS, next to it's extensive European network. During the summer, routes are to EWR, ORD and YYZ. For the winter, YYZ is traded for MIA. IIRC, this winter is the second winter they're operating this service.
DUS is not becoming a third full-fledged hub for LH, like FRA and MUC are, but it's more an O&D-orriented operation, catering for the local demand from the Rhein-Ruhr area and the eastern parts of the Netherlands and Belgium. Connections are possible though, and DUS is sometimes advertised as a boutique hub, as the small size of the airport (compared to FRA) typically makes it a very pleasant experiance.
Although one or two frames might be added in the coming years, the operations are supposed to stay low-scale.
Qazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6812 times:
Quoting DALCA (Reply 12): Could the BER area really support these kind of flights?
I would guess that LH could find enough traffic to fill an A333 daily out of Berlin to some major International destinations and especially Star Alliance hubs for onward traffic. This could be part of their capacity increases on presently served destinations, and Berlin would offer them an efficient way to add frequencies without relying on slot-congested airports like Frankfurt and Munich. Cities that come to mind:
- New York/Newark
- Los Angeles (4 x per week)
- San Francisco (3 x per week)
(8 x A333s would be enough to operate such a network on a daily basis - a relatively small investment by LH standards). Also considering that all mentionned destinations (and hub - Berlin) are presently Lufthansa-staffed, the investment would be even more insignificant for LH.
I would also see a lucrative BBJ or ACJ business model (through Privatair) developped ex-Berlin to such cities as:
- Newark (in addition to daily A333 service to JFK)
Keep in mind that Berlin is the political centre of Germany (high yielding politicians travelling to the far corners of the planet - they would appreciate these direct services without the need to transfer in Frankfurt or Munich), which should increase Berlin's appeal to LH as a mini-hub. Also, Berlin can be used as a mini-hub for the northern population of Europe - attracting passengers from the likes of Sweden, Norway, Danmark, Finland, the Baltic countries, and even Russia). Maybe a Berlin-based operation would finally halt all talks about LH acquiring SAS (lol =D)
But this would not happen immediately, and I think LH would require about 6-7 years to build such an operation in Berlin.
Yegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1750 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6710 times:
I think that BER will eventually become a hub for LH. Government business travel is huge and it is not bad in terms of yields. Besides BER has a very large population.
Aso, given its proximity to Eatsrey Europe and the fact that Eastern European carriers are not significant in the business of long haul traffic (OK, LOT, ...) you will eventually see LH step in and build a niche network
Vadheim From Norway, joined Jul 2000, 626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5939 times:
I am sure Berlin must be able to handle a lot of intercontinental traffic when the new Berlin/Brandenburg (BER) Airport opens.
Berlin is after all one of the largest cities in Europe (after Moscow, Paris, London and St. Petersburg) with a population of around 5 million people. Also being the capital of Germany I am sure Lufthansa will have plans for a northern-European hub feeding passengers from northern Germany, Scandinavia, Baltic Region, Poland and parts of Russia via BER.
Interesting to see the development of the new airport!
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 28152 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4613 times:
Quoting Qazar (Reply 14): Keep in mind that Berlin is the political centre of Germany (high yielding politicians travelling to the far corners of the planet - they would appreciate these direct services without the need to transfer in Frankfurt or Munich),
I expect most German politicians are travelling within Europe, not longhaul, just as I doubt that BA depnds on British politicians to fill their longhaul premium class cabins. And, unlike London, Berlin is not the business or financial center of Germany.
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3228 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4448 times:
Quoting Qazar (Reply 14): I would guess that LH could find enough traffic to fill an A333 daily out of Berlin to some major International destinations and especially Star Alliance hubs for onward traffic
Berlin intercontinental traffic demand is weak, as is been demonstrated often during the last years. If demand would be that big, why haven't carriers like AA or UA started routes to TXL in the years before the economic downturn?
IIRC, LH had stationed some A340s at TXL a couple of years ago, but withdrew the flights.
Quoting Vadheim (Reply 18): Berlin is after all one of the largest cities in Europe (after Moscow, Paris, London and St. Petersburg
City population alone is not that important. Actually, a big population does often generate enough demand for long-haul vacation flights (AB flies to BKK and HKT from TXL), but to make it really work, you do need a chunk of high-yielding traffic, often generated by business traffic from headquarters of multinational companies. For LH, FRA, MUC and ZRH are all better hubs than Berlin.
Quoting Qazar (Reply 14): Keep in mind that Berlin is the political centre of Germany (high yielding politicians travelling to the far corners of the planet - they would appreciate these direct services without the need to transfer in Frankfurt or Munich)
Don't overestimate demand for politicians flying outside Europe. And don't overstimate the yields either.
Quoting Qazar (Reply 14):
(8 x A333s would be enough to operate such a network on a daily basis - a relatively small investment by LH standards)
It's quite an investment even for LH. And when you only lose money on it, why do it?
I can see LH growing towards a DUS-style operation in Berlin, with some occasional long-haul flights, in a few years. But for hubs, they'll rather expand MUC and ZRH .
FraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4201 times:
I don't think that LH will open a mini base in Berlin once the new AP opens.
But we might see other partners to operate from their hubs to Berlin like CO already does.
For me the main problem for LH is their fleet. The smallest A/C is a 330 which is too big for almost all longhaul destinations. Partner airlines operating a 767 or 757 have a more fitting equipment for Berlin.
: Their website states that when it opens in 2011 BBI will be the biggest airport in Europe. I do not think that they are building it so big for a hand
: No planes were stationed at TXL. Lufthansa launched a very short-lived IAD-TXL service with the plane routed FRA-IAD-TXL-IAD-FRA.