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International Service From TPA  
User currently offlineBoeing77787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 13 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6767 times:

I recently read an article about a new committee at TPA that will try and boost international flights from the airport. Many people say there isn't enough demand for more international flights, especially with Orlando and Miami so close. LGW, YYZ, and GCM are already served. I think there is at least enough demand for flights to FRA and MEX, and possibly BOG, GRU, and KIN despite MIA's proximity. Any thoughts?

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6549 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6694 times:

Pan Am and Eastern have tried MEX. When MX was here, they served CUN instead of MEX.
NW flew to MBJ and GCM. Air Aruba flew to its namesake. LYU to DUS I think. Martinair to somwhere, I forget. Condor to DUS? JM to MBJ I think, maybe it was KIN.

Point is, there's been tried for a lot of markets.


Ironic fact, TPA's longest serving airline is


























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Yep, a foreign airline.

Dang, I was saving that for a trivia question one day!  bigthumbsup 



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6622 times:



Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 1):
LYU to DUS I think. Martinair to somwhere, I forget. Condor to DUS?

That's LTU to DUS, DE (Condor) to FRA, and Martinair was to AMS.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33177 posts, RR: 71
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6566 times:



Quoting Boeing77787 (Thread starter):
I think there is at least enough demand for flights to FRA and MEX, and possibly BOG, GRU, and KIN despite MIA's proximity. Any thoughts?

FRA maybe. The rest, absolutely not. TPA-BOG, for example, is less than 10 people per day O&D.

And Tampa can't even get Cancun to work, let alone Mexico City.

There is do demand to Kingston, also less than 10 PDEW. Maybe Montego Bay, though.

And Sao Paulo? Seriously?



a.
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1031 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6565 times:

I can see FRA, maybe seasonal LH at the least? Florida has a lot of German tourists.


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33177 posts, RR: 71
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6540 times:



Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 4):
I can see FRA, maybe seasonal LH at the least? Florida has a lot of German tourists.

We might see Condor return, but Lufthansa is a long-shot. Lufthansa is flying MCO-FRA and MIA-FRA/MUC/DUS/ZRH. I really don't think they want to add yet another Florida route.



a.
User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6483 times:

Florida also has a lot of German transplants. I too could see FRA or maybe even DUS or MUC but thats about it out of TPA.

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6511 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6445 times:



Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 1):
NW flew to MBJ and GCM.

NWA never flew TPA-GCM, but did fly MIA-GCM. They did fly TPA-MBJ and TPA-CUN for many years .


User currently offlinePhatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6410 times:

From my memory (1990's decade):

NX to YYZ (very early in the decade)

DE to SJO/FRA (FRA-SJO was one-stop via TPA, although DE sold TPA-SJO as a fifth-freedom market).

NW to MBJ/KIN/CUN.

MP to AMS.

BR to LGW (At the time when BR was owned by BA).

BY to LGW.

LT to DUS.

HF to DUS/FRA (?- This would have been before LT's arrival in the mid-90's)

UP to FPO (2000's decade)

--------------------------

I'm going to have to agree with others while TPA may benefit from certain transatlantic links, the demand doesn't exist for broad Latin American operations, much less GIG/GRU. I can see a link to HAV once the economic embargo is lifted.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6401 times:



Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 8):
DE to SJO/FRA (FRA-SJO was one-stop via TPA, although DE sold TPA-SJO as a fifth-freedom market).

I thought that in those days, DE operated FRA-SJO via MCO, not via TPA.


User currently offlineATLTPA From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6392 times:

All,

Here is a link to the article, in Tampa's alternative news weekly, Creative Loafing.

http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dai...y-international-is-that-a-problem/

I am proud to say that Jason Busto, quoted in the article, not only knows commercial aviation quite well, but has been a friend for over 35 years!

ATLTPA
(who still wishes Eastern, Mackey, Air Florida, Piedmont, PBA, and Braniff served TIA!)


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33177 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6382 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):

Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 8):
DE to SJO/FRA (FRA-SJO was one-stop via TPA, although DE sold TPA-SJO as a fifth-freedom market).

I thought that in those days, DE operated FRA-SJO via MCO, not via TPA.

Correct, it was via MCO.

Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 8):
I can see a link to HAV once the economic embargo is lifted.

TPA has been trying to get HAV flight access (right now only JFK, MIA and LAX are allowed HAV flights). TPA-HAV can work; they should keep pushing for it.



a.
User currently offlineBTVB6Flyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6379 times:

Quoting Boeing77787 (Thread starter):
LGW, YYZ, and GCM are already served

TPA also has service to YOW, YUL and soon to be YHZ.

I could possibly see more Canadian destinations in the future, particularly from WestJet including possibly YYC and maybe YWG.

[Edited 2010-01-02 11:00:18]

User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6318 times:

OneWorld has their presence (TPA-LGW). I think a StarAlliance flight to FRA or a Skyteam flight to AMS or CDG could work. Filling up the front cabin is where the challenge is. A B767 may work best.
StarAlliance has an advantage since they could also channel passengers via Continental Connection from TPA to PNS, EYW, TLH, FLL.
A LH A330 may be too much airplane. Maybe CO should jump in.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33177 posts, RR: 71
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6305 times:



Quoting Peanuts (Reply 13):
StarAlliance has an advantage since they could also channel passengers via Continental Connection from TPA to PNS, EYW, TLH, FLL.

What advantage is that? The market from EYW/PNS/TLH combined to Europe is less than 15 people daily, and Fort Lauderdale has DUS/MUC/FRA/ZRH on Star via Miami.

Tampa is only large enough for one network carrier, and it has exactly that.

And when SkyTeam decides to connect Amsterdam to Florida again, it will be to Miami.



a.
User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6255 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
What advantage is that?

I was referring to Star having a clear advantage over Skyteam, in Tampa, if they decided on FRA-TPA.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
And when SkyTeam decides to connect Amsterdam to Florida again, it will be to Miami.

I agree.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Tampa is only large enough for one network carrier, and it has exactly that.

I think within 10 years we may see an attempt by either Star or Skyteam. It's too soon. What I have noticed, having flown from AMS to PBI/TPA/EYW/TLH on numerous occasions, a lot of connecting traffic between XXX-AMS-EWR/JFK/MIA/DTW/ATL-PBI/TPA/EYW/TLH. It was striking. (You know what I mean: you go through immigration after arriving in the US, walk to your domestic connection gate and see a few familiar faces of people that were on your previous flight, going to the same destination as you. Not just occasionanlly. I would say this happens consistently).

Those Florida O/D numbers posted seem so low to me. So how many TPA passengers cross the atlantic (obviously by way of connecting somewhere) daily?

How is BA doing on LGW-TPA? How about up front?
Just curious.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinePhatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6240 times:

Airline to add four flights in Tampa
Source: St. Pete Times December 1996.

My mind tangled- the DE service was to PVR & ACA. I stand corrected on the SJO flights routed through MCO.

Other int'l flights that I recall from TPA-

FQ (Air Aruba)- AUA


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33177 posts, RR: 71
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6190 times:



Quoting Peanuts (Reply 15):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
What advantage is that?

I was referring to Star having a clear advantage over Skyteam, in Tampa, if they decided on FRA-TPA.

But it is not an "advantage" when the market to those cities is virtually non-existant.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 15):
So how many TPA passengers cross the atlantic (obviously by way of connecting somewhere) daily?

I believe it is ~425. Most cities not much smaller than that have zero trans-Atlantic service. Tampa is lucky.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 15):

Those Florida O/D numbers posted seem so low to me.

And most of it was from EYW. PNS and TLH have close to zero demand to Europe.



a.
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6143 times:
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I see Tampa being added to the departures boards of the mainly tourist airports of Manchester and Dusseldorf before the likes of Frankfurt.

As for London i am sure the first schedules were by Laker many many moons ago!


User currently offlineBoeing77787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6061 times:

Perhaps I was wrong with BOG, GRU, and KIN. But I still think FRA and MEX could do well, and MBJ instead of KIN. I don't think using CUN as an example of international failure at TPA is legitimate, as the swine flu scare was what caused demand to decrease.

Quoting BTVB6Flyer (Reply 12):
I could possibly see more Canadian destinations in the future, particularly from WestJet including possibly YYC and maybe YWG.

I think service to YYC and YWG would work if it was seasonal.

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 18):
I see Tampa being added to the departures boards of the mainly tourist airports of Manchester and Dusseldorf before the likes of Frankfurt.

Manchester could work.


User currently offlineTwa@FRA From China, joined Nov 2000, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6061 times:

From a German tourist point of view MCO is pretty close and RSW also have some international service from DUS (think Condor FRA dropped it) - I've once had been on the DE flight FRA - TPA - RSW which was a kind of strange having that short "flight" from TPA to RSW.
Anyhow, I also don't see TPA on the list of any non holiday overseas airline.... but how about JetBlue, SWA etc..... if they want to go to the Americas region TPA could be an option.. but just my two cents


User currently offlineBoeing77787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6049 times:



Quoting Twa@FRA (Reply 20):
Anyhow, I also don't see TPA on the list of any non holiday overseas airline.... but how about JetBlue, SWA etc..... if they want to go to the Americas region TPA could be an option.. but just my two cents

Very interesting...I think Southwest could profit from international flights form TPA, especially because its the most flied airlines out of Tampa.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33177 posts, RR: 71
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6018 times:

Quoting Boeing77787 (Reply 19):
I don't think using CUN as an example of international failure at TPA is legitimate, as the swine flu scare was what caused demand to decrease.

Swine Flu wasn't why Northwest, AirTran (never started) and Spirit (short-lived) discontinued TPA-CUN. TPA-CUN is about five times a larger local market than TPA-MEX, so I would certainly take that if TPA can't handle CUN, it can't handle MEX.

And the only U.S. city that has lost service to Cancun since Swine Flu is Tampa.

Quoting Boeing77787 (Reply 19):

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 18):
I see Tampa being added to the departures boards of the mainly tourist airports of Manchester and Dusseldorf before the likes of Frankfurt.

Manchester could work.

An O&D market of less than 25 people per day can work?

Also, correcting earlier info, Tampa's market to Europe is 272 PDEW, roughly three-fourths of it to the UK.

For comparisons sake, Orlando is 979 PDEW and Miami is 1,610 PDEW.

[Edited 2010-01-02 14:55:18]


a.
User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5953 times:



Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 8):
NW to MBJ/KIN/CUN.

NW operated TPA-MBJ for a number of years back then. Not to KIN though. However JM served TPA on their KIN-MBJ-TPA-MCO routing for a while back in the 80's. It did TPA as a stand alone for a while as well until they ultimately discontinued it and focused their attention on MCO, MIA**, and in the mid 90's FLL.

** JM no longer serves MIA.



greenheart
User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5885 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
Also, correcting earlier info, Tampa's market to Europe is 272 PDEW, roughly three-fourths of it to the UK.

For comparisons sake, Orlando is 979 PDEW and Miami is 1,610 PDEW.

Thanks for those numbers. I am not disputing the stats but something doesn't make sense.
A BA B777 seats ~272 passengers by itself. I know it's not a daily flight, but for arguments sake, we know BA is not carrying all those 272 PDEW's. CO, AA, DL carry quite a bit of international traffic from TPA through their respective hubs, daily.

Either BA's load factor is horrible or the PDEW numbers don't add up. What am i missing?



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
25 MAH4546 : BA's service is not daily; BA carries on-ward traffic to India/Africa/Middle East (albeit it requires an airport change, but BA does do it); it is pa
26 FutureUScapt : To some degree those numbers are understated since TPA certainly leaks traffic to MCO which has several nonstop options to Europe. That being said, I
27 Boeing77787 : I guess I was wrong in my thoughts of more international service from TPA. Maybe London is the only European destination with enough demand for flight
28 Peanuts : That's actually a good reason for Star or Skyteam to possibly jump in and start competing for some of that traffic. I would prefer a double connect (
29 MAH4546 : Those traffic flows aren't significant, combined with the fact that 75% of the market is in the UK, its pretty obvious why Tampa only has BA, and Tam
30 JaxMan19 : Can't you say the same thing for cities like BDL,PIT, PDX, BWI, and SAN...they each have simular populations and similar Int'l service, no one is say
31 Peanuts : Strong, definitive words. I'm not that convinced. BA did upgrade in the past from a B767 to a B777. Was this done for operational reasons or increase
32 Sflaflight : but many of those are/were bleed overs from the regulation era days. Bilaterals forced airlines to fly many point to point international routes which
33 Viscount724 : This year marks AC's 60th anniversary of service to TPA which was their only destination in Florida for many years. The inaugural YYZ-TPA flight (whe
34 PITrules : I would say that TPA is lucky to have the service. 2 of the 5 cities you mention above no longer have any European service at all. Furthermore, TPA i
35 MAH4546 : It has been a 777 for well over 10 years. The 767s do not operate to Gatwick. To note, TPA-LGW has never been daily. It launched as 3x weekly, went t
36 NASCARAirforce : TAM can't even fill an A330-200 to MCO to GRU. They are only averaging about 180 seats daily. Lately they been putting about 200-220 in the seats on
37 Bobnwa : NW never served KIN from TPA or any city. Martinair already tried this once before with a 763.
38 LTU932 : LH has retired its A310s a very long time ago. MP is shifting on becoming a cargo only airline. Their MD-11CFs are in cargo configuration, and they g
39 NASCARAirforce : Incorrect. Martinair still has 767-300s. I work at MCO and they fly in 3x weekly. They just brought back service in October. On their first day back
40 MAH4546 : While they still have 767s, Martinair is in the process of winding down all passenger flying.
41 MSYtristar : TPA should be thankful for the INTL service it currently has. If it wants more, the business community will have to step up with subsidies. Otherwise,
42 727LOVER : What is this? Air Macau to Toronto? Did you mean Wardair? I stand corrected, I remember now. Interestingly, if NW had expanded their TPA hub, could c
43 MAH4546 : No. The local market is tiny. It could only work with massive Dallas/Houston/Atlanta-style feed. TPA-LatAm is smaller than Atlanta-LatAm.
44 Post contains links PITrules : Here's a couple well timed articles "TIA might get clues from other areas on adding international flights" http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/jan...-add
45 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : He no doubt means defunct Canadian leisure carrier Nationair (based in Montreal) that went bankrupt and shut down in 1993. Their IATA code was NX, si
46 Post contains links Flytravel : The market shouldn't be so small. It is the 19th or 18th largest market, and East coast market, which should favor Europe, and a fast growing one: ht
47 Boeing77787 : I agree. The Tampa Bay Area is home to 4 million people. There has to be demand for a couple of more European destinations.
48 Peanuts : Not considering a UK or German charter airline, I can see StarAlliance do it at some point (FRA). Maybe SkyTeam (AMS or CDG), but not until they are b
49 Flytravel : I know that US has some of widebody jets flights between CLT-PHL or maybe the other way around, which then go to Europe. And AI has a IAD-JFK-DEL/Indi
50 Peanuts : I don't see it. In practical sense, one flight number on a stopover route often involves a change of plane anyways. There are too many logistical var
51 EddieDude : Yes, I agree with Mark that TPA-MEX would sadly not work. I wonder, however, if someone might retry CUN-TPA in the future... MX is now building a hub
52 MAH4546 : But it is that small. "Shouldn't be" doesn't change the facts. Because there is no business traffic.
53 Bobnwa : Since most of the passengers on any Europe to US flight originate in Europe, it doesn't much matter what the population of the US area is. The import
54 USPIT10L : Besides the markets being way too small, NWA never had any interest in Latin America, outside resort areas in Central America and the Caribbean. They
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