Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Behold The Chinese Copy Of The Dreamliner  
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1903 posts, RR: 5
Posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 26125 times:

Happy New Year to all - my first post in 2010.

I came across the story of the final test section of the newly designed Chinese COMAC-919, recently manufactured at Chengdu Aircraft Industry. The test section in question happened to be the front fuselage with the cockpit, visible in the photo below:


image source (in Polish only)

Well... Do you also think that this is an evident copy of the 787s front section?


Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 26101 times:

Just another example of why China is still a long way from technically surpassing anyone...they're great at manufacturing and replicating, but have no concept of creativity or innovation when it comes to designing a product.

User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3813 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 26106 times:

It does definitely look similar to the 787 nose design.

However, to be frank, it's also not at all dissimilar to the A350 and E-190 noses.

The DV windows do scream 787 though.

This is actually going to be a 737/A320 competitor.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 25905 times:

As I've said before, how many different ways can you make an aircraft (long tube with wings and a tail) which doesn't look 'different' from any predecessor with someone trying to class it a 'copy'? BTW, the 727 was a essentially a copy if you remember correctly!

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):
but have no concept of creativity or innovation when it comes to designing a product.

And which essentially makes no difference whatsoever.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25771 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 3):

And which essentially makes no difference whatsoever.

Of course it does. No one is going to surpass the 737 or A320 without significant innovation.


User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25720 times:



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 4):

Of course it does. No one is going to surpass the 737 or A320 without significant innovation.

Cost could make them a success. If they are cheaper and built just as well...

Also, why buy a used Boeing or AB if you can get a new copy for the same price?


User currently offlineParapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1642 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25666 times:

Who said they were trying to supass it? They have all the basic know how from assembling 320's - just as the 212 is a DC reassembled (with a new Rusian wing and western engines).
I don't know how large the internal Chinese market for a 320 sized aircraft is over - say - 20 years.But I would not be surprised if it was in excess of 500,which is plenty.They have chosen a state of the art western engine (Leap-x) that will be ready for test flying in 2014.So it will be plenty good enough for now.


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25651 times:



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Thread starter):
Well... Do you also think that this is an evident copy of the 787s front section?

Yes, but only when you call the nose of the 787 a copy of the DO 728:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Unmuth-AirTeamImages VAP



Axel
 Smile



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25420 times:



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 4):
Of course it does. No one is going to surpass the 737 or A320 without significant innovation.

I disagree. To simply make a copy of something at a much cheaper price one has no need to surpass the original at all, whether that be an aircraft, fridge or anything else. To claim otherwise is you bringing in a completely different argument and one which was not addressed, mentioned or implied at all in the thread.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 5):
Cost could make them a success. If they are cheaper and built just as well...

Also, why buy a used Boeing or AB if you can get a new copy for the same price?

 checkmark  exactly the point I was originally making.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1431 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25364 times:



Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 7):
Yes, but only when you call the nose of the 787 a copy of the DO 728:

Or, to make it even more clear, a copy of the DeHavilland Comet.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25319 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 8):
To simply make a copy of something at a much cheaper price one has no need to surpass the original

For that to be true however, the quality of the copy must be equal to the original, unless the price is so much cheaper that it can just be replaced. Given the safety and reliability history of the complex machines made by Chinese firms (specifically autos and aircraft), I highly doubt this new bird will have a quality and longevity equal to a 737 or A320, and honestly doubt whether it could even be certified in a western country. I could be wrong, but history says otherwise.


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25205 times:

A Chinese proverb says that "You can't overtake someone by walking in his footsteps"

User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1616 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25015 times:



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 10):
doubt whether it could even be certified in a western country

The Chinese have experience working on many planes already certified in western countries and the Chinese are working with many western companies on this project.


User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24172 times:



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 11):
A Chinese proverb says that "You can't overtake someone by walking in his footsteps"

No, but it is much easier to look over their shoulder.  Cool



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineSkyhawk62507 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 177 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 21613 times:

"Behold The Chinese Copy Of The Dreamliner"

Mods, I think the word "copy" may be stricken here. "Chinese" and "copy" are redundant.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 20773 times:



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 10):
I highly doubt this new bird will have a quality and longevity equal to a 737 or A320, and honestly doubt whether it could even be certified in a western country.

For starters, if it's significantly cheaper they may not need to match up. But, even then, the heavy hitters are usually the systems, and they're using a lot of Western systems; if they're good enough for Bombardier/Embraer/Airbus/Boeing, they're good enough for Comac. Longevity *may* be an issue, since that's the most in the hands of the airframer but, again, if they're just targeting a lower price point at equal performance, that may not be a big deal. Don't forget that, by design, the DC-9 has a longer life than the A320 and 737...but you don't see a lot of Douglas planes being build anymore.

Tom.


User currently offlineCheetahC From South Africa, joined Apr 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 20576 times:

I doubt it's a copy; reverse engineering a modern airliner, especially the software, would be so much effort you may as well start from scratch.

User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5498 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 19624 times:



Quoting Glideslope (Reply 13):
No, but it is much easier to look over their shoulder.

Hahaha  rotfl 


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Taecoxu


Another example, 707 anyone?


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 17831 times:



Quoting AirNz (Reply 8):

I disagree. To simply make a copy of something at a much cheaper price one has no need to surpass the original at all, whether that be an aircraft, fridge or anything else.

But this is neither a copy of the 787, or A320, so your point is irrelevent.


User currently offlineFrmrCAPCADET From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1732 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 17674 times:



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):
but have no concept of creativity or innovation when it comes to designing a product.

This is an uncalled for comment. What China does not have at this time is the experience of designing and making a modern advanced plane. They are working at it. I am sure they will heed the lessons of the 380 and 787 and understand it is a far more difficult task than anyone imagined.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineTHEENGINEER From Germany, joined Mar 2007, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 17672 times:



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):
Just another example of why China is still a long way from technically surpassing anyone...they're great at manufacturing and replicating, but have no concept of creativity or innovation when it comes to designing a product.

I completely agree however that's how Japan started as well.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 17583 times:

Wow, I actually ind that to be pretty funny! Long live the 787!


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17176 times:



Quoting FrmrCAPCADET (Reply 19):
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):
but have no concept of creativity or innovation when it comes to designing a product.


This is an uncalled for comment. What China does not have at this time is the experience of designing and making a modern advanced plane. They are working at it. I am sure they will heed the lessons of the 380 and 787 and understand it is a far more difficult task than anyone imagined.

It's not an unfounded observation. One only has to look at their automobile manufacturers for more evidence of this.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16826 times:



Quoting CheetahC (Reply 16):
I doubt it's a copy; reverse engineering a modern airliner, especially the software, would be so much effort you may as well start from scratch.

Don't rule out reverse engineering when it comes to the Chinese. Rumours even say that they're reverse engineering the Transrapid (the German maglev, which was supposed to be used by Deutsche Bahn, and yet it was so expensive, only the Chinese bought themselves a few of these maglevs) that former Chancellor Schröder was so generous to sell to them for the airport rail line to PVG. Aviation reverse engineering is thus certainly possible.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 22):
It's not an unfounded observation. One only has to look at their automobile manufacturers for more evidence of this.

 checkmark 

And the worst thing is: We give them something to reverse engineer on a silver platter, by establishing manufacturing facilities on the Mainland or just selling them the stuff. Examples: Remember when MD had a plant in China? And what about the Embraer manufacturing facilities in Harbin? And let's not forget those plans by Airbus to have A320s built in China for the local market, though I don't know what ever became of this, or if this was dropped due to Power8.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16667 times:

Im not sure about you guys, but when Im flying 30k+ in the air in a metal tube I don't want to hear the word "cheaper".

Given their quality control issues, I'll never step foot on a Chinese airliner.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
25 Post contains links Berblinger : For successful assembly of A320 and A319 in China see http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...16_china_final_assembly_line.html. In the second half of
26 Post contains links Berblinger : IMO, comments like this do not take into account the strategic effort of China to build and sell modern aircrafts. Step by step, they are building up
27 Skyhawk62507 : While I absolutely respect Ostrower's opinions on all things aviation... I think COMAC's reach is significantly exceeding its grasp with such claims.
28 N766UA : Those are EXACTLY the 787's windows! You can draw comparisons between fusulages and nosesections and shapes and sizes and blah blah, but those windows
29 5Rivers : If I used the same criteria, I'd never set foot on an American built airliner. What has the auto industry have to do with the aeronautical one? China
30 Keesje : IMO those claims structures looking remotely similar are "copies" is nothing more then ideological driven. If the Chinese cockpit has different dimens
31 Tdscanuck : Too late. Both Airbus and Boeing have major structural assemblies that come from China. The Chinese are perfectly capable of building to western avia
32 Starrion : Correct me if I am wrong: The aquisition price means little in the long run. The real question is: can the Chinese built an aircraft that will meet th
33 Acheron : Some of the AA's MD's were made in China, so maybe you just flew in one without realizing it.
34 Post contains links and images JBirdAV8r : You're being (purposely IMO) disingenuous here. Here's a previous iteration of the Comac C919: Bears more than a passing resemblance to this: View La
35 LTU932 : What "ideologic"? Just look at the cars the Chinese have "created". Just look at the plagiarism they did with e.g. the BMW logo, using it to create l
36 BMI727 : The tooling that was first used on Chinese produced MD-90s is being reused to make the ARJ-21. But they are getting better, they used to copy the Russ
37 Berblinger : I agree that there is a lot of copying from China in many industries, but reproducing probably has to be considered as an intermediate step of learnin
38 Peergynt : FriendlySkies said: "Just another example of why China is still a long way from technically surpassing anyone...they're great at manufacturing and rep
39 Keesje : That's not an iteration of the C919, it's an ARJ (based on the lincense build MD80s). The C919 is a metal aircraft contrary to the 787. It has differ
40 Airbazar : Somehow I don't think airlines will be putting a "Made in China" label on their planes that are indeed made in China in the future so you really won'
41 JBirdAV8r : OK, yes, that was an ARJ21. My mistake. But the ARJ21 is not a "license-built" anything. It's a direct ripoff from Boeing. Did you even bother to rea
42 Tdscanuck : If that were true, you'd see *very* different material choices that we see currently. There's a reason the military runs technology ~20 years ahead o
43 Francoflier : They used the tooling that MD provided for the local MD-90 production line to build the fuselage. So the fuse is about the same. The wing, however, i
44 FriendlySkies : Show me an example of anything the Chinese have both designed and produced that is not a copy of existing technology. Money means zilch unless you're
45 Columba : Well, it looks awful similar to the 787. If you say you can not make an aircraft that does not look similar Boeing, Douglas and Convair both had simi
46 Tdscanuck : You know China builds major structural assemblies for Airbus and Boeing, right? They obviously *can* meet safety and manufacturing standards. Tom.
47 DocLightning : How do you know they want to sell it outside of China? Most Russian planes weren't bought outside the bloc countries. But if China can make their own
48 Maxter : Better still if, and thats a big if they are able to pull off the hat trick of cheaper acquisition price, cheaper maintenance and running costs all i
49 Cerecl : Neither does any other major country in this world, and even some countries that are not so "major"... I agree however, that the propaganda sometimes
50 Lh526 : Sure, when told how to do, they can! When someone takes them by the hand and shows them what they need to build. OWN design and OWN inovation is a to
51 5Rivers : Think I mentioned this before, but what does the car industry have to do with aviation? I also mentioned that they have the worlds fastest passenger r
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Can The Chinese Copy The DC-9? posted Tue Mar 21 2006 13:16:02 by OyKIE
When Will The Title "Dreamliner" Be Dropped posted Mon Jul 9 2007 23:14:55 by Boston92
Dodgy ITV Copy Of The BBC Airport Progam On Now. posted Fri Aug 25 2006 21:26:35 by Gilesdavies
On Tour With The 787: Dreamliner Is On Schedule posted Fri Jun 16 2006 14:59:40 by NYC777
Air Tran And The 787 Dreamliner posted Tue Apr 18 2006 07:17:20 by Vulindlela744
Anyone Dislike The "Dreamliner" Moniker? posted Wed Apr 28 2004 01:14:19 by DfwRevolution
Whats The Location Of The Chinese Gov 767-332ER posted Tue May 1 2001 18:31:02 by Hkgspotter1
Where Can I Get A Copy Of The JP Airline Fleet... posted Sun Feb 11 2001 16:05:46 by Englandair
Avianca At CLO - The MD, The Ugly And The New posted Sat Jan 2 2010 14:21:22 by Clo1973
AirTran The Off Spring Of Eastern? posted Fri Jan 1 2010 16:29:02 by HermansCVR580