Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13765 times:
Hi,
it seems not the best period for the B737NG's. Another off-runway case happened today when a Air Berlin B737-800 (D-ABKF) overshot the runway at DTM after aborting take-off. Due to slippery conditions or reduced breaking action it went off.
All passengers evacuated safely. The flight was heading for TFS.
Dortmund, Germany - A jet of German budget airline Air Berlin with 165 passengers on board slid off the runway at Dortmund airport on Sunday morning, following an aborted take-off, an airline spokeswoman said. The pilot of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft aborted the take-off when technical problems were detected, but owing to wintry conditions the plane then slid off the runway. No passengers or crew were hurt.
Passengers, who had been bound for the Canary Islands, were able to disembark safely through the rear doors of the aircraft, even as it lay nose-down on an embankment.
The Air Berlin spokeswoman said that the pilot had followed procedure during the incident, which is believed to have been caused by a malfunctioning speedometer in the Boeing.
The airline was now examining if the airport services could have been at fault for the accident.
"Our pilot acted correctly. It is the question however, whether the surface was completely de-iced," Diane Dadelow said.
A spokesman for Dortmund airport said that following the incident the runway had been closed to allow the recovery of the aircraft.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13562 times:
Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 3): Not much runway left to abort a takeoff.
A B738 will always be able to abort a takeoff under normal circumstances, also in DTM. That would also be possible in this case, but runway conditions were less the favourable with the weather situation.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
DTManiac From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 689 posts, RR: 16 Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13474 times:
It's not that it makes any big difference for the issue at hand, but the flight was AB2450 to LPA according to the airport website. The passengers were bussed to PAD were they were put on a substitute aircraft to LPA.
It seems that both speedometers showed different speeds leading to an aborted takeoff.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3593 posts, RR: 5 Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13282 times:
Apparently pax have already been transferred to PAD to be flown from there to TFS . So what happens to their luggage? It is still on the stuck plane at this point - how will AB get a full belly-load of luggage to TFS, assuming that the plane at PAD will not wait for hours for the missing luggage. At this time of year, it is probably not that easy to find spare capacity for belly cargo to the Canaries at short notice.
Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 7): What does the gas-truck do there? Do they defuel the plane before pulling it out of the snow?
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7771 posts, RR: 26 Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13115 times:
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 8): So what happens to their luggage? It is still on the stuck plane at this point - how will AB get a full belly-load of luggage to TFS, assuming
the accessible part of the cargo hold was off-loaded, including a dog who was the sole "belly passenger".
Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 7): Do they defuel the plane before pulling it out of the snow?
looks like. Makes the a/c lighzter as well and the salvage easier.
Interesting quotes in one of the links for the pictures. The "snow fall" was the reason for the accident........
C5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10528 times:
Glad to see that everyone made it out safely, as it could have always been a lot worse! How will they tow the plane out though? It's pretty obvious that the tug can't simply hook up to the nose wheel like normal, will they attach chains or something of that nature to the main gear and pull it out that way?
"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
Delta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1131 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9738 times:
I wonder if this action of the Captain, even though probably absolutely in accordance with SOP's could have been avoided just by taking off and do a traffic pattern and immediate return to the airport ? I don't know if you can handfly the airplane with faulty speed indicators, but probably just a pitot tube got some ice or snow intake overnight. May be it would be the safer option, than trying to abort a take off on a short runway with a full load of pax and fuel with having at least a visual confirmation that the runway could be iced. May be even in the ATIS somewhere the braking action was mentioned.
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9592 times:
Quoting Delta777jet (Reply 15): could have been avoided just by taking off and do a traffic pattern and immediate return to the airport ?
I wonder. Probably not, since the B737 have no fuel jetisson system (for fuel dump), so just a traffic pattern might not be enough to reduce the weight to within landing weight landings. And I think circling a longer time for fuel burn was also not the safest option.
If breaking action on the runway was reduced, and mentioned as such in the latest METAR or by airport authority, can this breaking action became worse just before this B737 ran over the runway? Breaking action is a very important factor for crew to decide to start a takeoff roll or not (for the case of an emergency stop like what happened here).
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
Delta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1131 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9556 times:
I think it would be better just to take off and handfly the plane if necessary and rely on the standby speed indicator. If they used a decission speed the question is also which decission speed they used when they have faulty indicators ? May be the wrong one and that's why the plane is now where it is. I think we need to wait for the incident report.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14342 posts, RR: 26 Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9482 times:
Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 16): Probably not, since the B737 have no fuel jetisson system (for fuel dump), so just a traffic pattern might not be enough to reduce the weight to within landing weight landings. And I think circling a longer time for fuel burn was also not the safest option
The only issue with that is a possible overrun on landing. A 737 can land overweight if they have to.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9318 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18): The only issue with that is a possible overrun on landing. A 737 can land overweight if they have to.
OK, understand that.
So can we say that the crew maybe thought that this emergency stop was possible at the point they made the decision, and that the runway surface was appartently less good then they thought it was? Otherwise, the take-off and landing might have been the safer option?
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2736 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8725 times:
EDLW
Runway 6/24
2,060 m (6,759 feet take off distance)
Aren't they supposed to do an airspeed indicator cross check at 80 knots?
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 6288 posts, RR: 23 Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8318 times:
Quoting THEENGINEER (Reply 23): Air Berlin is blaming the airport authority for not clearing the runway of snow and ice patches completely.
Oh really? And did you by any chance conclude that from the very opening post??
Quoting Airbuseric (Thread starter): "Our pilot acted correctly. It is the question however, whether the surface was completely de-iced," Diane Dadelow said.
Come on.....23 replies in and you restate the first post??
Glad everyone got out ok. That's the main thing.
✈ Don't like it? That's just your tough chuff. ✈
25 ACDC8: Thank goodness he did. If the pitots got plugged up there its very likely chance that the ASI'd be acting as an altimeter and not as an ASI, so in ot
26 UAL757: You know how all things happen in 3s? Well this this third time (that a 738 has overrun recently)...AA, Ryanair, and Air Berlin.
27 Airbuseric: RussianJet, the italic wording was not mine but a quote... I'm not restating anything[Edited 2010-01-03 13:49:22 by airbuseric]
28 RussianJet: You misunderstand. I quoted you as a demonstration that the first quote I mentioned, by THEENGINEER, was merely a restatement, 23 replies into the th
29 XBerg: After reading these forums for years(!), I finally managed to sign up (It's never too late, right? ). As for the topic: On this picture, it appears th
30 JRadier: IIRC it is part of the checklist to lower them, as it aids in the evacuation if the overwing exits are used (less of a drop)
31 DanVS: Not sure, but it appears to me they were in take-off config.
32 71Zulu: No those are definitely landing flaps and looks to me like the maximum setting of flap 40.
33 AirplaneFan: Isn't this the first time AB has had an incident?
34 DanVS: There have been less serious incidents... The most recent are, according to Avherald.com: Air Berlin B738 near Dusseldorf at Jun 29th 2009, smoke in
35 Brenintw: There's the rather memorable video of a CI 738 removing some runway lights in Japan last year when the pilots tried to take off while being unaware t
36 ACDC8: I brought up the Birginair example in post 25 .... I think this is one of the best examples of why you cross check your ASIs and stay on the ground i
37 LTU330: This is one of the newer 737NGs in the Air Belin fleet. It has SFP or Short Field Performance. Air Berlin took this option specifically for use at Ai
38 MSYPI7185: Also Air Florida in DCA, is another example. The only correct option IMO is to abort takeoff. If they had taken off, I am afraid things would have be
39 LHR380: There is apparently a pax made video floating around somewhere according to Av Herald. Dunno if its true
40 Henry71: here is a link to watch the pax-video clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=AksK2Du_MZY check from 49 seconds into the video: why is there a coat of snow on w
41 Jorge1812: Because the engine covered with snow (not ice!) is not relevant for flight dynamics. georg
42 THEENGINEER: Yes really and I didn't come to that conclusion from the opening post.
43 Henry71: i would never try to take-off even with a small amount of snow on the surface of an aircraft. check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florid
44 RussianJet: Well, here's a tip - read at least the opening post before posting and repeating the same info contained whilst not adding anything new whatsoever. B
45 RFields5421: Overruns on rejected takeoffs after V1 are usually because the captain is convinced that if the plane does takeoff - it will not make it back to the
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And did you by any chance conclude that from the very opening post??
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