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United 727-22 Configs  
User currently offlineJackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 668 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4888 times:

At some point in the 1960's, United's original 727s operated in a single class configuration with 5 abreast seating. A photo on this site from 1970 of the cabin shows a 2 class "standard" seating configuration. Were United's 727s delivered in the single class layout, and how long was this seating retained for?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

In the later 1980's UA's 727 were configured as follows:

727-100 12/96

727-200 12/135

Plus there were also some 24 F configured 727's in Europe during the early 1990's.

Cheers,
BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offline28L28L From Australia, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4787 times:

I do seem to recall an all coach 727-22 configuration from around the late 1970s called the "Reno Commuter". I'm sure that the configuration was six abreast though.

User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2009 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

United's intial 727-22's were delivered in 5 abreast One Class "S Class" seating. The first aircraft converted to one class seating were the 720's. Most of the 29 in the fleet were converted, but a few were kept in dual class to fly routes that competed with CO, ORD-DEN-LAX. The conversion started in 1963. The first 727-22's were delivered in 1964. By 1965, (after even converting a few DC-8's to one class), UA figured out that while the idea made sense, they were losing first class traffic to AA and TW because some travelers wanted to fly first class, and Y class to other carriers because many travelers did not want to pay a few dollars more for the extra comfort, and free liquor. For example, the Y class fare ORD-JFK/EWR was $43.10 and the S fare was $48.00, but the F fare was only about $54.75 in 1963, but by 1966, F fares had dropped, and ORD-NYC was only $52.30. Coast to coast (LAX-JFK_, the difference between F and Y was only $15.80 one way. By 1965, UA dropped one class and had three class service F-L-Y on the 720's and DC-8's. L was like the old S class with 5 across seating, lots of leg room, first class type meals, and free booze, at only $5.30 more than Y LAX-NYC.

But the S class in the 727's was pulled in 1965. It was replaced by F(24) and Y(72) on the 727-22. There were also some 727-22's that were all coach 3-3 for California Jet Commuter service between LAX and SFO. I don't remember the exact number of seats on the S class 727-22, but the F-Y had six rows of 2-2 (24 total) in first class, and 72 in the back with four rows across from the galley with only 3 seats on one side, so that was 10 rows of six and four rows of three. I have a seating chart from 1979 when the 727-22 was configured 10F/86Y with 36 inches of pitch in coach so assuming the same pitch, there were four rows of three seats each and 16 of five seats each for a total of 92 in one class service.

As has been written before, in the 1976-1978 period, UA converted some of their DC-8's, both the 20 and 50 series standard DC-8's and the Series 61 Stretch 8's to 2-3 seating in coach as well. I believe they re-used the S class seats, as I do not think the Palomar's were ever set up five abreast in the DC-8's. This experiment did not last that long either.

Pat Patterson, UA's founder and President until George Keck took over believed that giving passengers more comfort in S class would increase UA's traffic share. It unfortunately didn't. As we know, American tried the same sort of thing in 1990's and found that while people complain about being cramped in rows with only 31 inches of pitch, they are not willing to pay an upcharge for additional legroom.

Even in 1979, UA's DC-8-50's had 38 inches of pitch in coach, the DC-8-61's had 37", the DC-8-62's had 36", the 727-222's had 34", 727-22's had 36", and the 737-222's had 34"; very generous by today's standards, and the DC-10's and 747-122's both had 36" as well.
Oh, for the good old days.


User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6648 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4632 times:

Thanks Milesrich for your very insightful post!

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 3):
they are not willing to pay an upcharge for additional legroom

True that AA's More Room Throughout Coach didn't worjk (first tried by TW by the way) but UA's current Economy Plus seems to be working; Some people get it because of status but some people buy it and it brings in lots of extra revenue for UA.

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4366 times:



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 3):
The first aircraft converted to one class seating were the 720's. Most of the 29 in the fleet were converted, but a few were kept in dual class to fly routes that competed with CO, ORD-DEN-LAX. The conversion started in 1963.

NW also converted their 720Bs to one-class with 5-abreast seating sometime in the mid-1960s, except on NW the 5-abreast 720Bs were sold as Y class. I forget whether NW eventually reverted to the previous 2-class F/Y layout with 6-abreast Y or whether they retained the 5-abreast all-Y product until the aircraft were retired in the early 1970s.


User currently offlineBeeweel15 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4167 times:



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 3):
For example, the Y class fare ORD-JFK/EWR was $43.10 and the S fare was $48.00, but the F fare was only about $54.75 in 1963, but by 1966, F fares had dropped, and ORD-NYC was only $52.30. Coast to coast (LAX-JFK_, the difference between F and Y was only $15.80 one way.

If these were the fares in the last century could you imagine what it would be at the end of this century and into the next.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4086 times:



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 3):

My Hero...he and I must meet for dinner sometime and have a great conversation about
the industry in the 60's.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):

They went back to two class on the 720B in the eary 70's.
I was there plus the old NW scheds show it.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2009 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

I don't remember NW having one class 720B's. I flew on my first in about 1965 or 66 and they were two class. My 1966 and 1968 OAG's don't show any Y class only B2F's, but they did have some all coach 707-320B/C's, used for military charters to Vietnam and used in scheduled service, although I never flew on one.

As far as the 3-2 seating in the Boeing Jets, it was started by CO. They had three class 720B's and 707's, with F-Y-K and Y had 2-3 seating, and K was 3-3 with no meals. United used their three class DC-8's to compete with CO in the ORD-LAX, ORD-DEN, and DEN-LAX markets with the same classes of service. When UA used two class aircraft on these routes, the coach section was economy only (K), no meals.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3918 times:



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 8):
I don't remember NW having one class 720B's. I flew on my first in about 1965 or 66 and they were two class. My 1966 and 1968 OAG's don't show any Y class only B2F's

Yes, I remember NW's ads promoting their 5-abreast Y class 720Bs, and I even flew on one (at a youth standby fare, 50% discount for passengers 12-21 yrs.) in the summer of 1967 SEA-ORD. It was a red-eye flight. I recall thinking how spacious it was. Also less than half full which helped.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3867 times:



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 8):

Go to a NW sched of 1969, 1970 and early 1971.
Im thinking that the OAG showed two class because of the converting process of the 17 720B's....some had F and some did not.

Ship numbers 721 thru 738....less 724
or Reg numbers N721US thru N738US..

Viscount 724 has an open invite too.
(see my post 7).
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineJackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 668 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

what was Uniteds F class service like on the 727? would they offer steaks cooked to order and chateaubriand from a cart on some of the longer 727 services, or was that level only found on the DC-8/720?

User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2009 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3576 times:

United had "good" food service on ORD-LGA hourly 727 flights serving steak in both classes in the late 60's era. But I don't recall them serving Chateaubriand or asking how you wanted your steak cooked in coach.

As far as the one class 720's on NW, I will pass. I don't remember them that way in the late 60's, and the three OAG's from 1966 and 1968 that I own don't show that type of service. I only flew on them from ORD to JFK, TPA, MIA, and FLL, as well as a flight or two to DTW and MKE.


User currently offlineRampRat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1541 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

I found these at work.

727-122

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/finklejag/005.jpg

DC-8-71/73

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/finklejag/006.jpg


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5713 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Oh wow, that DC-8 map looks like a bowling alley!


Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3103 times:
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The second to last row on the UA DC-8-71 consisted of three rearward facing seats, with a foldable table (similar to BEA Tridents) As one can see on the seat map, the last row consisted of just two seats. I don't know whether the penultimate row was rearward facing on the entire fleet, but I distinctly remember flying CLE-SFO in the summer of 1973 in a DC-8-71 with such configuration.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3061 times:



Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 15):
I distinctly remember flying CLE-SFO in the summer of 1973 in a DC-8-71 with such configuration.

I think in 1973, that would have been a -61, no?


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3012 times:
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Quoting N62NA (Reply 16):
in 1973, that would have been a -61, no?

yes.


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2009 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2757 times:



Quoting N62NA (Reply 16):



Quoting N62NA (Reply 16):
Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 15):
I distinctly remember flying CLE-SFO in the summer of 1973 in a DC-8-71 with such configuration.

I think in 1973, that would have been a -61, no?

It was neither. UA's DC-8 61's (later 71's) did not have the rear lounge. They were only installed on the short 8's, (DC-8-11/21/51/52's) with F/y configurations. The Lounge was on the port side of the aircraft with the coach/rear galley across from it with a galley service door. There were two seats facing forward and three seats facing toward the rear. The Stretch Eights did not have this feature on UA. I flew in these aircraft perhaps as many as a hundred times or more, with one flight from ORD-PHL just before Christmas in 1964 that I will never forget when as soon as we climbed through chop and leveled off, the cabin crew started to get dinner ready, and then the captain came on and announced they would have to suspend cabin service, that in about one minute we would hit extreme turbulence. No sooner than the pilot released the click on the mike did that airplane start to bounce in ways I had never experienced before or since. For the next hour, we flew through the roughest air imaginable for a long period. I have had flights where it was so rough, the ashtrays popped out of the armrests and hit the ceiling, but that was in the spring or summer near thunderstorms and lasted a minute or two or three, this went on all the way to Philadelphia. I was sitting at the window, and my dad was on the aisle facing forward. He thought I was going to get sick, so he held an airsickness bag to my face which probably made me feel worse. I never lost my cookies but when we landed, I was so nauseous that I could not walk. As we were waiting to deplane, he took the bag from my face and held it out for a female passenger sitting across from us who proceeded to fill it. There is more to the story that involves a family friend who picked us up that night, but unless you knew him, you would not find the story amusing, but if you did, it was very funny. He was a bit of a hypochondriac. He used to come visit us in Rock Island, with literally a suitcase of pills. Anyway, he lived in Abington which is north of Center City Philly on Old York Road. Broad Street runs north and turns into Old York Road. I was stretched out in the back seat of his Buick Electra 225, and he kept asking me if I wanted something for my stomach. I told him no, i just wanted to lay down. Well, he pulls up to this drug store that was open all night, (rare in the mid 60's), and he goes in, while we wait in the car. He comes back with a small dixie cup of Pepto Bismol, and offers it to me. I refuse, and then standing on the sidewalk, he says, "it shouldn't be a total waste," and downs the entire cup of Pepto Bismol." True story. We were supposed to fly the next morning to Boston and were scheduled on a TW 707. I told my dad I wanted to ride in a prop plane, I didn't want any more high altitude turbulence, so we took an EA DC-7B that left about the same time. I have never been sick on airplane since, but it is a memory almost as fresh as it was 45 years ago.


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2009 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

One more thing, I do not think the table was collapsible. At least I never saw one removed, and there was no place to store it. It was a substantial table.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2638 times:

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 18):
UA's DC-8 61's (later 71's) did not have the rear lounge. They were only installed on the short 8's, (DC-8-11/21/51/52's) with F/y configurations. The Lounge was on the port side of the aircraft with the coach/rear galley across from it with a galley service door. There were two seats facing forward and three seats facing toward the rear. The Stretch Eights did not have this feature on UA.

Bottom photo from UA's original DC-8 introductory brochure published in 1958 shows the rear lounge. The first class lounge forward of the F class galley is visible in the distance in the photo at the top (from Airchive.com site).

http://airchive.com/galleries/1528.jpg

[Edited 2010-01-15 16:28:21]

User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2527 times:



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 19):
No sooner than the pilot released the click on the mike did that airplane start to bounce in ways I had never experienced before or since.

Great story, thanks for sharing!



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offline747luvr From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

Does anyone know where or how I can locate what UAL flew between FLL and CLE back in July of 1978? thanks, in advance for anyone who may know.

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