Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
No Seatbelt Signs On Descent And Landing  
User currently offlineACdreamliner From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 517 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7802 times:

I flew last night, and on leaving the gate 5 hours late, the captain informed us how he had had a flight before and said it in a 'its been a long day and i just want to get home' tone. i thought nothing more of it. after all he and his crew came to get us after our aircraft went tech.

im not saying specifics of this flight as i dont want to incriminate anyone if this a serious issue. but here is the question.

is the fasten seat belt sign not manditory on decent and landing, as it was not illuminated at any point, however, the cabin crew did tell us over the pa system to fasten them? and if the crew in question were at fault, what ramifications could there be if any?


Where are you going?
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7664 times:

To be honest, and AFAIK the seat-belt sign is part of the landing checklist. For it to be forgotten I don't think that is possible, unless they perhaps went on what they remembered.

There isn't really much of an issue as we don't know whether they did switch the sign's on and for some reason the sign's didn't work, however the cabin crew knew the seat belt signs should have been switched on which leads me to think the flight deck must have informed them.

Looking at the legality of it I think that yes, they must be switched on however as the passengers have been told to take their seats and fasten seatbelts by the cabin crew then I don't see a major issue.

Regards,


User currently offlineL33roy94 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7645 times:

where did you fly from and to?? i may have been on your flight.


Easyjet all the way
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7642 times:

One would have to check the MEL, but that may well have been the maintenance issue that caused your delay. As noted above, it is mentioned so often in the last few checklists of the approach and landing, it would be a tough one to miss!

In some aircraft the seat belt sign is automatic as well. Illuminates on first flap extension and extinguishes on last flap retraction. (No smoking used to have a similar logic with regard to landing gear, but that is now always illuminated).



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 882 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7535 times:



Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 1):
For it to be forgotten I don't think that is possible

I was on a Northwest flight about 6 years ago where the seatbelt sign never came on for landing. We landed with it off and taxied to around G20 at MSP and came to a stop. With the seatbelt sign off people started to get up, only to have the flight attendants yell at everyone and threaten to call the police.

When the passengers started to yell back that the seatbelt sign was off, it was turned on for the rest of the taxi to the gate.


User currently offlineLuvfa From United States of America, joined May 2005, 445 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7347 times:

I've had situations, (rare), where we've been given the 10K chime to secure the cabin for landing and the pilots have forgotten to turn "seat belt " sign on. In this case I called the cockpit and they promptly turned it on. It is part of their pre-landing check list, but sometimes things happen, like getting interrupted by ATC while going through the list and forgetting where they left off when getting back to it.

User currently offlineSkyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7254 times:

I was on a WN flight several years ago (PHX-LAS) and saw a lot of procedural/safety violations:

--no anti-collision beacons illuminated while plane was taxiing at dusk into gate at PHX
--pilots forgot to turn on fasten seat belt sign on departure from PHX
--pilots again forgot to turn on fasten seat belt sign on descent and landing at LAS
--F/A didn't know how to use or deliberately put life vest on backward during demo

When I deplaned, I asked the pilots if they forgot about the seat belt sign on both takeoff and landing. The FO got a sheepish look on his face and said he hoped no FAA inspectors were onboard and hoped that I was the only person who noticed their oversight. That seemed like a lot of errors and safety violations for one flight. It really made me wonder how seriously WN takes safety.


User currently offlineACdreamliner From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 517 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7140 times:

ok, since it seems it was a non-event (to be fair teh flying was error free) it was flybe flight BE854 from EDI-BHX


Where are you going?
User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4945 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7077 times:



Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 6):
-F/A didn't know how to use or deliberately put life vest on backward during demo

That's a little bit weird, doing a life vest demo on a flight PHX-LAS. Since it is a overland route, you would think it wouldn't be needed,



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineSkyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6910 times:



Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 8):
That's a little bit weird, doing a life vest demo on a flight PHX-LAS. Since it is a overland route, you would think it wouldn't be needed,

I suppose they do it in the event of a ditching in Lake Mead. It's the largest reservoir in the United States and is very close to LAS. US went down in the Hudson River. Those pax needed their life vests.


User currently offlineM11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6816 times:



Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 9):

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 8):
That's a little bit weird, doing a life vest demo on a flight PHX-LAS. Since it is a overland route, you would think it wouldn't be needed,

I suppose they do it in the event of a ditching in Lake Mead. It's the largest reservoir in the United States and is very close to LAS. US went down in the Hudson River. Those pax needed their life vests.

Life vest demo's are only required on flights that travel further than 50NM from shore but many carriers have their F/As demonstrate it anyways because its good information for the pax that are actually paying attention.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineSoxfan From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 864 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6775 times:

Don't forget that there are plenty of Deaf passengers who cannot hear announcements, so they may use the seat-belt light as a cue for preparation to land/landing, especially if they are not sitting by a window and/or in a windowless row. Granted there should be other cues as well, such as the cabin crew coming around and ensuring that seat belts are fastened prior to landing, but I believe it is still important for the seat-belt sign to be illuminated when necessary.

Here's an interesting question: If the seat belt sign is not working properly (i.e. not illuminating) throughout the plane, would that alone prevent the plane from being deemed safe/fit to fly with passengers?



Pilot: "Request push, which way should we face?" JFK Ground: "You better face the front, sir, or you'll scare the pax!"
User currently offlineNighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5126 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6753 times:



Quoting M11stephen (Reply 10):
Life vest demo's are only required on flights that travel further than 50NM from shore but many carriers have their F/As demonstrate it anyways because its good information for the pax that are actually paying attention.

Years ago I took a flight from LAS to an airport near the grand canyon and they told us about the life vests - "in the event of a landing on water - in the middle of the Nevada desert - you're life vests are under your seat".



That'll teach you
User currently offlineUnited1P From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6657 times:

I flew UA on ORD-LAX and the seatbelt sign was never turned on until one man tried to go to the restroom about 5 minutes into the flight. The FA said "Sir, the seatbelt sign is on, please return to your seat." He pointed at the not-illuminated seatbelt sign, and she sheepishly called the cockpit, at which point the seat belt sign was turned on. We had been delayed 5 hours on the ground in ORD, and I guess in the rush to get out of ORD it slipped their mind?  confused 


"You've never been lost until you've been lost at Mach 3." -Paul F. Crickmore
User currently offlineNws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6570 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 11):
Here's an interesting question: If the seat belt sign is not working properly (i.e. not illuminating) throughout the plane, would that alone prevent the plane from being deemed safe/fit to fly with passengers?

Yes, the seatbelt signs are not an MELable (if that is even remotely considered a word) item at any of the airlines I've ever worked at. We used to ignore the burned out ones until the aircraft was rotated back through to a hub.


User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6529 times:



Quoting C767P (Reply 4):
I was on a Northwest flight about 6 years ago where the seatbelt sign never came on for landing. We landed with it off and taxied to around G20 at MSP and came to a stop. With the seatbelt sign off people started to get up, only to have the flight attendants yell at everyone and threaten to call the police.

When the passengers started to yell back that the seatbelt sign was off, it was turned on for the rest of the taxi to the gate.

That is extremely poor show on the Flight Deck's part I must say. And I never thought about that aspect either, the passengers are terrible at the best of times whilst taxiing.

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 5):
I've had situations, (rare), where we've been given the 10K chime to secure the cabin for landing and the pilots have forgotten to turn "seat belt " sign on. In this case I called the cockpit and they promptly turned it on. It is part of their pre-landing check list, but sometimes things happen, like getting interrupted by ATC while going through the list and forgetting where they left off when getting back to it.

My apologies for my first post, I never actually thought about my own experiences however I have had to do this as well. Infact thinking back on a few occasions whilst jumpseating I have only seen checklist's being used once!

Regards,


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8864 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6497 times:



Quoting ACdreamliner (Thread starter):

It may have been illuminated, just you could not see it. If it was bright in the cabin like in the morning, and the cabin lights were set to dim for flying through the night, it maybe impossible to make them out without a good contrast.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineUnited1P From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6482 times:



Quoting Luvfa (Reply 5):

A bit off-topic, but how do the pilots set of the 10K chime from the cockpit?? I am aware that on some airlines the pilots just turn the seatbelt/no-smoking signs on and off repeatedly, but at least on UA there is a seperate chime.



"You've never been lost until you've been lost at Mach 3." -Paul F. Crickmore
User currently offlineRacers22 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6417 times:

I have forgotten the Fasten Seatbelt sign on a few occasions. Sometimes, the flight attendants catch it, sometimes they do not.

Each aircraft is different in regards to letting the flight attendants know that sterile cockpit procedures are no longer in effect and that it is safe for them to move around the cabin. Most Dash 8s had a seperate chime button, but on the EMB-145, we had to flip the switch for the no-smoking light while also turning a blue sterile cockpit light on or off depending on whether we were climbing or descending.

Regulations probably differ in countries other than the US.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6330 times:



Quoting ACdreamliner (Thread starter):
is the fasten seat belt sign not manditory on decent and landing

I don't think the sign itself is mandatory...just that the cabin be secured. If they can do that another way (like a cabin crew check) I think that would satisfy the regulations. Unless the use of the sign was in the airline's OpsSpec.

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 1):
To be honest, and AFAIK the seat-belt sign is part of the landing checklist

I think the checklist just says "Seatbelts"...if the cabin crew has notified the flight deck the cabin is secure (which should have happened before the landing checklist) they should be good.

Quoting Soxfan (Reply 11):
If the seat belt sign is not working properly (i.e. not illuminating) throughout the plane, would that alone prevent the plane from being deemed safe/fit to fly with passengers?

Each operator has their own MEL, but the MMEL (at least on a 737) allows dispatch with an inoperative passenger sign system provided the PA works.

Quoting Nws2002 (Reply 14):
Yes, the seatbelt signs are not an MELable (if that is even remotely considered a word) item at any of the airlines I've ever worked at. We used to ignore the burned out ones until the aircraft was rotated back through to a hub.

Something doesn't sound right there...if they're not "MELable", then they're not on the MEL, which means you *do* need to have them to dispatch. In other words, if it's not MEL-able then you'd have to replace the burned out ones before the plane was allowed to do revenue service.

Tom.


User currently offlineE38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6328 times:

This was not a big deal. It sounds to me like the pilots simply overlooked a checklist item.

User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6298 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 19):
Each operator has their own MEL, but the MMEL (at least on a 737) allows dispatch with an inoperative passenger sign system provided the PA works.

Out of interest, I just checked the MEL of the aircraft I fly, (B767), and it is the same. One or more 'Fasten Seat Belt' signs may be inoperative provided the PA system works and is audible from all seats, and the Cabin Inter-phone too must be operative.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineSoxfan From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 864 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6280 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 21):
MEL

Please pardon my ignorance, but since it's such a key term for this discussion, what does MEL stand for? Thanks for the clarification.



Pilot: "Request push, which way should we face?" JFK Ground: "You better face the front, sir, or you'll scare the pax!"
User currently offlineRacers22 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6252 times:

Minimum Equipment List

User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6235 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 22):
Please pardon my ignorance, but since it's such a key term for this discussion, what does MEL stand for? Thanks for the clarification.

The Minimum Equipment List is a volume carried on board which dictates which equipment on the aircraft may be inoperative, for how long, and under what conditions and restrictions. In Canada it is approved by Transport Canada, and may not be violated without their written consent.

On the B767 it is about the size of a New York Telephone book, and requires a degree in law to interpret. I never hurry when reading it!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 Soxfan : Thanks so much to both of you!
26 Tdscanuck : There's also the MMEL...Master Minimum Equipment List. The MMEL comes from the manufacturer. Each airline then develops their own MEL from the MMEL.
27 Nws2002 : You're right, you would have to replace them, that's why we always noticed them inbound to a hub or maintenance base and not at an outstation with li
28 Tdscanuck : Ah, OK. We're in the real world now...makes sense, thanks for clarifying. Although, at least on some aircraft, the MMEL does allow signs (and placard
29 WestJetForLife : Tell that to the pilots of DL 1141, whose oversight on a checklist item caused the crash of a 727-200 and 14 deaths. Anyway, I've been on flights whe
30 Chrisair : Earlier this year, departing ANC on Alaska, the pilots flipped the sign off when we cleared 10,000 feet and left it off almost the entire flight. It f
31 L1011Lover : That's not quite correct! A life vest demo is required for all flights that travel further than 50NM from shore, and also in any case when either tak
32 Britannia191a : Could have been worse, could have been the landing gear i suppose. I think any item missed from a checklist is wrong
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Overhead Bins Creaking On Takeoff And Landing posted Sat Mar 17 2007 04:03:47 by Braybuddy
Pilots Need Oxygen On T/off And Landing At Quito posted Mon Feb 19 2001 01:44:59 by Cedarjet
Airlines That Play Music On Take Off And Landing posted Tue Mar 3 2009 03:22:35 by Raffik
Why No Illuminated Lavatory Signs On AA MD-80s? posted Wed Jan 14 2009 15:29:17 by 1337Delta764
Why Dim Cabins On Take-off And Landing? posted Mon Jan 5 2009 08:54:41 by Qantasistheway
No Cell Phones On Landing... Who's Left? posted Mon Mar 10 2008 21:33:03 by Cubsrule
Why No Moving Map On AA's 767s And A300s? posted Sun Jan 28 2007 00:38:24 by SvenvdM
Books But No Ipods During Takeoff And Landing? posted Mon Jan 8 2007 05:40:11 by FlyDeltaJets87
No Smoking/Fasten Seat Belt/Lavatory Signs On 787 posted Mon Jul 10 2006 18:44:09 by 1337Delta764
Why No Wingtips On Ryanair And EasyJet 737NG's? posted Wed Apr 7 2004 21:16:24 by Gilesdavies