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De-icing... Whats The Story? Help!  
User currently offlineL33roy94 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 86 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5736 times:

happy new year!

hi guys,

i was held up at EDI yesterday after being delayed over 2 hours to LTN.

i have seen pictures of many de-icing procedures and witness some at heathrow but why doesn't LTN and EDI de-ice?

it was -6 degrees, isn't that cold enough... planes had snow and ice all over them!!! including my plane, G-EZBI !!!!

thanks.


Easyjet all the way
12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5721 times:

When the temp is M6degC there is very little moisture in the air, so unless the plane sits on the ground for hours, very little deicing is required.
Also if it snows at this temp, the snow is very soft and light and will blow off the aircraft. It doesn't stick on like zero deg snow.


User currently offlineJohnMKE From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5615 times:



Quoting L33roy94 (Thread starter):
... planes had snow and ice all over them!!! including my plane, G-EZBI !!!!

Unacceptable!! I'm sure EasyJet has deicing policy but i do not have access to that. What I can say is that aircraft members of the AEA (including BA, Virgin, and BMI) should be deicied.

from the AEA (Association of European Airlines) "Recommendations for De-icing/Anti-Icing of Aircraft on the Ground"

"When aircraft surfaces are contaminated, they shall be de-iced prior to dispatch. When there is a risk of contamination of the aircraft surfaces at the time of dispatch, these surfaces shall be anti-iced. If both de-icing and anti-icing are required, the procedure may be performed in one or two steps. The selection of a one- or two-step process depends upon weather conditions, available equipment, available fluids and the holdover time to be achieved"

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 1):
very little deicing is required.

but deiceing is required.

I will agree with you that in extremely cold temperatures there us USUALLY much less moisture thus reducing the amount of deicing because no moisture no snow. A warmer fuel from hydrant fueling going into the wings, or aircraft coming from hangers there are plenty of issues that can add the the accumulation of frost and snow.

Quoting L33roy94 (Thread starter):
it was -6 degrees

more information on the outside air conditions would help with your answer. Was there any percipitation?


User currently offlineL33roy94 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

JOHNMKE,

negative sir... no rain or snow.



Easyjet all the way
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

That would not be allowed in Canada.

The rules are very specific. NO contamination on wings or tail, (or fuselage in some cases). Not even if it is cold and dry snow, (quite common in Canada) as you can not tell what is under the snow, or that the warm fuel has not melted/frozen some of the snow. In that case, it is usually blown off with a leaf blower, or swept off. But ... you still remove the contamination.

The only exception is light frost up to a maximum of 1/8" on the underside of the wing, due to cold fuel from high altitude from the previous flight.

In fact in Canada, passengers are encouraged to query the crew if they see contamination, and no de-icing!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5516 times:

OP

You mentioned snow and ice on the planes.

The implication was that it was not cleared before the plane took off. Is that correct?

If no precip is falling, could they have cleaned the wings of contamination and put so anti-freeze / deicing fluid on the wings at the gate?


User currently offlineL33roy94 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5505 times:

the spoilers and flaps where allfrozen over... when i used to fly heathrow to edinburgh with BMI we were all ways de-iced but not on the way back..


Easyjet all the way
User currently offlineJohnMKE From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5288 times:



Quoting L33roy94 (Reply 6):
the spoilers and flaps where allfrozen over

If there is frost or snow on the upper surface of the wing (spoiler section) and flaps this would seem to be very clear disregard for safety if by when you say frozen over is frost. If i was flying i would most likely yelling (as a result getting my name placed on TSA's list) but I wouldn't fly on that aircraft unless that frost was removed from the critical lift devices as such the flaps and upper wing service (spoiler section).

The other concern as LongHauler said:

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 4):
you can not tell what is under the snow,

clear ice is a very thin layer of melted snow/water that has frozen and adhered to the wing and is one of the most dangerous forms of contamination. By itself it would likely have a major reduction of lift and increase in drag, two things that you don't want when you want a plane to fly.

L33roy94, your story is very concerning and a reminder of the simple mistakes that could result in a very dangerous and deadly accident


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24891 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4996 times:



Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 7):
Quoting LongHauler (Reply 4):
you can not tell what is under the snow,

clear ice is a very thin layer of melted snow/water that has frozen and adhered to the wing and is one of the most dangerous forms of contamination. By itself it would likely have a major reduction of lift and increase in drag, two things that you don't want when you want a plane to fly.

It's especially dangerous for rear-engined aircraft. An SAS MD-81 crashed soon after takeoff from ARN in December 1991 when obviously inadequate de-icing did not detect clear ice on the wings. It was the aircraft's first flight of the day after being parked overnight at temperatures close to freezing. The ice came loose when the aircraft reached about 1,100 ft. and was ingested into both engines causing severe damage and engine failure and the resulting crash landing. Luckily there were no fatalities.

http://www.baaa-acro.com/photos/MD81-SAS-Stockholm.jpg



User currently offlineL33roy94 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4910 times:

im still here so it most of been safe though!?!?


Easyjet all the way
User currently offlineJohnMKE From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

You rode the wave. Sometimes the wave takes you back to shore some times the wave takes you under.

I think the pictures from viscount tell it all. I think I will use those pictures in a shift brief today.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4567 times:



Quoting L33roy94 (Reply 9):
im still here so it most of been safe though!?!?

Thankfully, you are not a pilot, as that type of thought is dangerous.

It used to be prevalent thinking until "The Dryden Accident", then rules and conditions became a lot easier to interpret. No is No, and there is no grey area.

Contaminants also includes bugs, which was a bigger concern on the F28's that flew in Canada, and is monitored on the CL-65, the smaller versions which too have a hard wing.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineWhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 776 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4394 times:
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Quoting JohnMKE (Reply 2):
Quoting L33roy94 (Thread starter):
... planes had snow and ice all over them!!! including my plane, G-EZBI !!!!

Unacceptable!! I'm sure EasyJet has deicing policy but i do not have access to that. What I can say is that aircraft members of the AEA (including BA, Virgin, and BMI) should be deicied.

Did you see the wing? Just because there is snow on a wing doesn't mean it needs to be deiced. Ice on the wing, then yes it does need a spray. Someone has to go up on the wing and scratch the wing with a finger nail to determine if there's ice or not.

Bottom line is no one on here was there to see what happened and all the info is coming from someone who was a passenger. No offense but not usually the most reliable!


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