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Palm 90 Memorial  
User currently offlineJMackey From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 294 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4712 times:

Caught a very well done program on The Weather Channel in regards to this almost 28 year old tragedy.

I understand that Joe Stiley ( passenger ) and Kelly Duncan ( F/A ) are still with us, but don't know about any of the other survivors.

I was wondering if there is a permanent memorial set up for those that were lost ?


I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4704 times:

I do not know about a permanent memorial for all of those lost on that flight. However I do know the 14th street bridge was renamed after the one passenger who kept giving the life jacket to other passengers and then died.


God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineJMackey From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4684 times:

That's great to hear Jeffrey, Arland Williams would have been the kind of man I would have wanted as a friend.

I've researched previous posts, and although Lenny Skutnik became the face of the heroes on the ground, Roger Olian ( 20 mins in the water ), Don Usher and Gene Windsor ( helicopter crew ) had guts of steel.



I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning
User currently offlineAAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2333 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

For those here that do not know much about the crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXSQ9YGQvOI



Where did everybody go?
User currently offlineJMackey From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4480 times:

Recalling the crash is important, IMHO, but the colossal set of errors still makes me sick.

Listening to the CVR, it seems that the f/o was practically begging the captain to abort take-off. I then read that ATC had a TWA 727 inside of 1 1/2 miles from the runway threshold.

Would Capt. Wheaton's decison have been affected by traffic ?



I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4636 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4361 times:



Quoting JMackey (Thread starter):
I understand that Joe Stiley ( passenger ) and Kelly Duncan ( F/A ) are still with us, but don't know about any of the other survivors.

I believe Priscilla Tirado is still around. I know Patricia Felch passed away. Burt Hamilton, I am not sure, but I believe he passed away.

Quoting JMackey (Reply 4):
Listening to the CVR, it seems that the f/o was practically begging the captain to abort take-off. I then read that ATC had a TWA 727 inside of 1 1/2 miles from the runway threshold.

Yes, it's an interesting one. It seems like the captain had a bitof go fever to be honest.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineJMackey From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4227 times:



Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 5):
Priscilla Tirado

Priscilla was quite young IIRC. Thanks for the info, BTW.



I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning
User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4169 times:

I'm not aware of any memorial, and I haven't heard of any plans to create such a memorial

If there was ever an accident that shouldn't have happened this certainly belongs in that category. I've never understood how two professional pilots could look out their window at a major snowstorm and not believe their deicing equipment needed to be turned on.

Unbelievable.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4133 times:

There was a thread not long ago about crash-site memorials, including some in remote spots such as where a UTA jet crashed in the desert in the middle of Africa. It's surprising to me that no one has constructed even a small one for this crash, given the number of potentially interested parties. No doubt a suitable spot could be found around Gravelly Point or near the pedestrian path by the bridges.

I was not aware of the approaching 727--Eastern, not TWA--that was cleared to land too close. The NTSB report states that the controller violated the two-mile separation rule, and that due to Palm 90's slow takeoff roll, the 727 *touched down before Palm 90 lifted off, * with a separation of 4000 feet! That's with 1,400 feet still to go in Palm 90's takeoff roll. The report notes that a witness expressed alarm at how close the two planes were!

Also interesting in the NTSB report are: how many witneses there were to the various elements leading up to the crash, and a photo by a bystander of the a/c at gate that apparently shows snow on the a/c (hard to tell in the terrible PDF scan of a paper copy of the report).

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineHBGDS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3985 times:

>It's surprising to me that no one has constructed even a small one for this crash, given the number of potentially interested parties. No doubt a suitable spot could be found around Gravelly Point or near the pedestrian path by the bridges. (reply 8)

It's a good point. The memorial aspect of commercial air crashes is relatively new. You see some set up locally from the 1910s and 20s onward for single pilot crashes and some failed heroics (notably transatlantic and polar stuff in the 30s). By the 1940s, you see occasionally crash sites memorialized. In Switzerland, a US C-47 had a kind of cairn set up near the crash site in the mountains. Ditto for a couple of Air India crashes at Month Blanc (a Connie and years later a 707). One was set up near Paris for the THY DC-10 crash in March 74. But generally it's only beginning in the late 1980s that you see memorials go up. The full trend, methinks, came with Pan Am 103.


User currently offlineJMackey From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3914 times:



Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 8):
The report notes that a witness expressed alarm at how close the two planes were

Any relation, you think, to the PATCO strike that happened around that time ?



I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5053 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

This crash was one that I will never forget, even though I was just a wee little guy at the time. However, this crash is somewhat important in the fact that it brought many changes to CRM and Snow conditions. How many lives do you think this crash alone has saved since that fateful day? If Air Florida 90 had not crashed, eventually it would have happened to someone else.

Quoting JMackey (Reply 4):
Listening to the CVR, it seems that the f/o was practically begging the captain to abort take-off. I then read that ATC had a TWA 727 inside of 1 1/2 miles from the runway threshold.

Which was a bad move on the captain. IIRC, the FO mentioned the EPR abnormalties, and the Captain did not even respond to it. That should have been an immediate reason to abort. Also, did they firewall the throttle? I thought I read somewhere that if they firewalled it, they might have been able to prevent the crash.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineJMackey From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3907 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 11):
Also, did they firewall the throttle? I thought I read somewhere that if they firewalled it, they might have been able to prevent the crash

IIRC, and I need an education on EPR numbers, the EPR was set at 2.0 and the actual was determined to be only 1.7



I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning
User currently offlineZippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3866 times:



Quoting HBGDS (Reply 9):
But generally it's only beginning in the late 1980s that you see memorials go up. The full trend, methinks, came with Pan Am 103.

Actually, there is a memorial for the tragic NW Lockheed Electra Crash from 03/17/1960
That was a flight that started in MSP flew onto MDW and was to fly to MIA but, tragically crashed in nearby Tell City, IN. In Perry County. Here is a link to this page.

http://www.perrycountyindiana.org/attractions/aircrash.cfm



And, here are some articles on surviving Flight Attendant Kelly Duncan.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/11/cnn25.tan.moore/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Duncan



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5053 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3785 times:



Quoting JMackey (Reply 12):
IIRC, and I need an education on EPR numbers, the EPR was set at 2.0 and the actual was determined to be only 1.7

I would have to go back and look at the CVR transcripts. The FO mentioned something not being right, and I thought it had to do with the EPR readouts. Let me check on it. Maybe someone will beat me to finding it though!



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5275 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3777 times:



Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 5):
I believe Priscilla Tirado is still around. I know Patricia Felch passed away. Burt Hamilton, I am not sure, but I believe he passed away.

Correct on all counts.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 5043 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

In fact Ms. Felch and Mr. Hamilton both passes away within two weeks of each other.
Joe Stiley had over 67 broken bones from the crash. He recovered but is now nearly immobile due the the bone spurs that settled into his neck and spinal bones. He now lives in Washington state and calls himself a cranky old man now. Due to his injuries from the crash, he had to give up his job as a communications exec.


I think the F/O was referring to airspeed. The F/O said, "That's not right" the Captain said "Yes it is, there's 80".

The question of firewalling the throttles to survive this crash is a theoretical one. They only reached a height of 362 feet AGL. Would the engines have had the time to spool up to full power at that low altitude? They crashed only 30 seconds after take off,



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3703 times:



Quoting Zippyjet (Reply 13):

I was at that memorial about 7or 8 years ago. The locals do an excellent job keeping it looking beautiful and clean.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

No there is no memorial what-so-ever to Palm 90 besides the re-naming of the 14th street bridge. You can walk right down to the site if you park at Gravelly Point and take the Mt. Vernon Trail northbound toward the city.

User currently offlinePhllax From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 437 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

I see Gabriel Macht, who portrayed Joe Stiley in the MOW all the time eating lunch with his wife. Every now and then I want to tell him that only 2 of 5 are left, but it might freak him out.

User currently offlineJMackey From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Zippyjet-

Nice picture of the memorial.

Quoting Phllax (Reply 19):
Every now and then I want to tell him that only 2 of 5 are left, but it might freak him out.

Good Point ! I also understand that Pat Felch and Priscilla Tirado kept a very low profile after the accident, and rightfully so.



I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning
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