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AirTran And Canada?  
User currently offlineMicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 778 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear that AirTran serves the major Canadian cities. Do they plan on adding this to their network? In particular, Montreal, Toronto.


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17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineQ120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

Highly unlikely to see them in Canada for any scheduled service.


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User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

I don't know for sure, but FL seems to be doing like all of the other LCCs and completely avoiding Canada due to the fees. If the fees go down, maybe we'll see FL, B6, and maybe even WN in Canada.


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User currently offlineMicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 778 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6055 times:

What kind of fees are involved. It looks like ATL-YUL is overpriced compared to other markets of similar demand/distance/size.


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User currently offlineCGKings317 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 306 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6007 times:
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YYZ is among the most expensive airports to fly into. Plus, the taxes and fees that are added to a round-trip ticket for US-Canada flights can be upwards of ~$150.

~CGKings317  Smile



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User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5937 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 2):
I don't know for sure, but FL seems to be doing like all of the other LCCs and completely avoiding Canada due to the fees.



Quoting CGKings317 (Reply 4):
YYZ is among the most expensive airports to fly into. Plus, the taxes and fees that are added to a round-trip ticket for US-Canada flights can be upwards of ~$150.

The higher costs may be true, but the key is whether $ can be made. If existing AC/DL fares on ATL-YYZ/YUL, for instance, are high enough for a profitable entry by FL, I'm sure FL would consider a Canadian market.

Given that AC Jazz and Delta Connection operate 11 daily on YYZ-ATL, it would be seem the market exists for a 3rd player with 2-3 daily. If they came in with lower fares, FL could steal some traffic, grow the market and leverage the ATL hub. Their unit costs should be lower than AC & DL also.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5910 times:

Canada for FL will happen at some point. If I was guessing, probably a combo of flights to Orlando Atlanta and Milwaukee. I think when the time is right they will go to the Canada. But right now the focus I think is on Carribean and central America region.


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User currently offlineGlobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5717 times:

I would be curious on the loads. I used to commute between ATL & YYZ and would take turns on DL and AC. Almost always the AC flights were RJs and were empty. I never understood why except that DL of course owns ATL. I think that ValuJet (AirTran's predecessor) served YUL maybe from BWI? No nonstop though from ATL. The service did not last too long.


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User currently offlineLegacytravel From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1067 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

As a person who has flown into YYC I found the fares to be in the mid $500 range. The taxes and fees to fly into Canada are high. I have flown into SEA and driven into Vancouver instead of flying into YVR. I saved $350 per ticket on 4 tickets for that trip.
I have yet to see tickets on either MKE-YYC or ORD-YYC leave the mid $500 at anytime in the last 2 years.
I hope that the demand drives that and not govt. fees.

Mark in MKE



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User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3099 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5508 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 2):
I don't know for sure, but FL seems to be doing like all of the other LCCs and completely avoiding Canada due to the fees. If the fees go down, maybe we'll see FL, B6, and maybe even WN in Canada.

But as these fees are uniformly incurred by all carriers flying into Canadian airports, these LCC's should be able to offer lower prices....it's not like they're the only ones who will incur those fees.....am I right or missing something?


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7138 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5499 times:



Quoting Q120 (Reply 1):
Highly unlikely to see them in Canada for any scheduled service.

I wouldn't call it highly unlikely. I would expect it in the next 36 months, but I agree YYZ is probably too expensive for them.


User currently offlineOswegobag From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

My guess it that with MKE opening up, FL may open up a few cities in Canada.... Maybe non-traditional cities like Hamilton, ON or similar.

User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5234 times:



Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9):
But as these fees are uniformly incurred by all carriers flying into Canadian airports, these LCC's should be able to offer lower prices....it's not like they're the only ones who will incur those fees.....am I right or missing something?

I'm just passing on information I learned here. People ask why the LCCs aren't in Canada, and those fees are cited as the reason. I don't know why that is.



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User currently offlineAuroraLives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5193 times:



Quoting Legacytravel (Reply 8):
The taxes and fees to fly into Canada are high.

These kinds of statements always confuse me. Please look at the following example, picked at random... ATL -> YYZ and ATL -> BUF on DL one way on Jan 19, 2010.

ATL - YYZ cheapest fare is $324 + $10.70 taxes and fees
ATL - BUF cheapest fare is $79 + $ 10.70 taxes and fees

I guess the YYZ landing fee ($?) and Navcan ($7.50) is built into the base fare.... but what other "government" fees would account for such a huge difference?

Also... just out of curiosity... I did the reverse (sort of.... I used AC for YYZ - ATL strictly because they break out the fees on their website and DL does not... total price and fees were very similar though)....

BUF - ATL cheapest fare is $79 + $10.70 taxes and fees
YYZ - ATL cheapest fare is $310 + $87.37 taxes and fees

This $87.37 in taxes and fees is broken down as follows:
$7.50 Navcan
$25 YYZ AIF
$16.85 USA Transportation Tax
$5.23 USA Agriculture Fee
$7.94 Can Air Travellar Security Charge
$17.52 Can GST
$7.33 USA Immigration Fee


I guess my point is I see lots of fees added by the US when flying into the USA, but I don't see those broken out when flying into Canada...

Additionally, the base fare difference from BUF/YYZ -> ATL is so extreme, what "hidden Canadian govt fees" could possibly account for this?

Me thinks there is more to this whole situation than meets the eye  confused 


User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5177 times:

The Canadian Feds are the largest source of the fees. There are a variety of them including a security fee and other taxes. Airports and transportation are looked at as a revenue source beyond a service. YYZ gets attention as an expensive airport (landing fees have been reduced lately) but it also pays an incredible "rent" to the federal government.

Also you have to compare apples to apples and not oranges. An accountant has to delve into all the charges that airports level at carriers and compare them fairly. There is no one standard way of reporting so it can be difficult to make a fair comparison.


User currently offlineAuroraLives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5140 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 14):
YYZ gets attention as an expensive airport (landing fees have been reduced lately) but it also pays an incredible "rent" to the federal government.

Right but that's what I'm trying to get at. It would only make sense that the landing fee at YYZ is large enough to cover it's payments (rent, etc) to the fed govt, etc.

Are the Canadian security fees charged separetely to US airlines when they land? or are they built into the landing fee?? or are they just convered by the "rent", etc?

If you look at my example above, base fare is 4x that from YYZ than BUF. Is that *really* all govt fees?? or is some competition lacking?


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3016 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5040 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 14):
Also you have to compare apples to apples and not oranges. An accountant has to delve into all the charges that airports level at carriers and compare them fairly. There is no one standard way of reporting so it can be difficult to make a fair comparison.

But wouldn't fees for a particular city pair be pretty much the same, no matter whether AC or FL was flying it? If so, then someone like FL could certainly come in and undercut legacy carriers' fares on a given city pair, since they're all subject to the same level of fees.... Right?



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User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4818 times:



Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 16):
But wouldn't fees for a particular city pair be pretty much the same, no matter whether AC or FL was flying it? If so, then someone like FL could certainly come in and undercut legacy carriers' fares on a given city pair, since they're all subject to the same level of fees.... Right?

I have the same thinking. no matter the fees, if they're all equal to all carrier, a LCC can still get its share of a market that lacks competition.


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