LexPassenger From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1798 times:
Wishi is mostly right.
Also management has gone out of its way to piss the pilots off. Didn't help.
Also seems to be a fair amount of personalities at play. Some of the local union leaders seem to have a real attitude problem with the company.
Evidence posted here & elsewhere suggests that the Mediation Board compromise was an okay deal pilots should have accepted, and then moved on. They didn't, by a huge margin. This means something is terribly wrong at this company. Probably best in the long run for all concerned if the company is wound up, even if there is short term pain.
Miller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 711 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1782 times:
The huge margin was due to the duty day disputes between Comair and ALPA. Comair wants 14 hours maximum per day, pilots want much less. Remember, however that a pilot who works 14 hours a day gets the appropriate rest afterwards as required by FAA (FAA allows 16 hour days).
This isn't a time to argue whether or not the pilots should keep holding out, its time to speculate on where the 1100 pilots remaining will go once they're let go by Comair. Negotiations are over. Yesterday was D-Day, and both sides lost.
DE727UPS From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 814 posts, RR: 14 Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1770 times:
I don't think the pilots are being greedy if you know anything about the background of Comair....a company that had record profits do to RJ's and a company that started the pay for training mess. Would you say the NW mechanics were greedy with the deal they got? I wouldn't, I'd say the NW mechs fought as an organized labor group to get what they deserved....and negotiated and voted in a contract that they could live with.
I still think it's out of place for anyone who isn't a Comair pilot to make assumptions about what they should or shouldn't have taken....it's a very complex situation...and now the Comair pilots have a lawsuit against ALPA, too. Talking about a weird mess.....
CAETravlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 907 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1757 times:
I don't think it was totally the pilots fault as individuals. I think it is a result of taking the word of union leadership too seriously. Unions can be a good thing, as they are supposed to represent the best interests of a group of employees. However, the ALPA thought that management was bluffing, and assured its constituents that there was something better to be had. It looks as if now the alternative they are going to get to the NMBs proposal is unemployment.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
Twotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1717 times:
DE727 - The NW mechanics made large concessions in accepting the contract that they did. It's called COMPROMISE! That's what you do when you negotiate. They accepted the contract that they did in order to avoid harming the airline both financially and in reputation. Sure, they got some of what they wanted, but as far as wages go, they settled for less than half of what their original contract demands were. Comair pilots rejected what could have been a 308% pay raise for some of them. There is no compromise with ALPA, and now it has cost 5000 people their jobs and people who flew Comair are out one more carrier they could afford to travel on. And Iain, Jet pilot, as usual, has no more idea what is going on at Comair than anyone else does. As usual, he is spouting emotion that is not supported in fact. Anything he has said on the matter is pure speculation.
DE727UPS From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 814 posts, RR: 14 Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1691 times:
USA Today said last week that starting pay for the NW mechanics is now 50K a year. They deserve it, if you ask me. Just for comparison...UPS pilots start at 26K a year.
"They accepted the contract that they did in order to avoid harming the airline both financially and in reputation"
I respectfully disagree....I bet they voted it in because they felt it was an acceptable contract for them. When you're an airline employee who is part of an organized labor group and you're in contract talks with the company.....the company is not your friend. They are trying just as hard to give as little as possible as you are trying to better yourself. If the Northwest mechanics were so pro-company they wouldn't have threatened a strike......but next time I see one I'll ask him if he accepted his contract to "avoid harming the airline both financially and in reputation". Hope he doesn't laugh at me too hard....
Twotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1679 times:
Actually, DE, since you are SOOOOOO smart, I am sure I am wasting my time here, but that is a quote from a union rep. Also, one of the reasons that NW mechs threatened a strike was that 5 years ago, they took a pay cut and made other concessions in order to keep the company afloat. Now, after 5 years have gone by and everything is hunky dory, they feel they should get their share of the good coming down the pipe and rightfully so. I have no reason whatsoever to doubt that what the mechs did was done so at least in part out of concern for the company as a whole. If they didn't care about the company, why take the cuts they did 5 years ago? Think their pilots could ever "lower" themselves that much in the company's best interest??? now it's my turn to laugh...
Twotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1643 times:
It happenend when? That UPS thing you were talking about??? All I can find about that is that a few pilots walked out on a few flights but not a company wide thing by any means. Even so, pilots, like anyone else need to know when to draw the line and shutting down the company permanently is WAY over the line. You aren't gonna find a lot of public support on this one dude. The public won't tolerate the kind of greed that costs 5000 people their jobs. The death knoll doth toll for ALPA... hehehehehe
DE727UPS From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 814 posts, RR: 14 Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1631 times:
Teamsters strike against UPS in 1997. The rampers and truckers struck for better work rules and more full time jobs. Pilots honored the strike and walked the lines with the rampers and drivers. Some aircraft and trucks were operated by management but not much. The strike lasted nearly two weeks and the pilots didn't fly. Pilots gained nothing other than the goodwill and respect of the rampers and truck drivers....there was no benefit to pilots contract or jobs. By the way....almost all the aircraft mechanics walked, too.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4424 posts, RR: 35 Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1625 times:
It's always funny to hear one group of players in the airline business talk about how the others have "no right to comment" on the actions of other groups of players. Human affairs are a social matter...everyone's involved, and everyone's affected. In the airline business, the interest groups are roughly three: consumers; management/ shareholders; and employees (who have subgroups themselves). We all have an interest in the business surviving and thriving, and thus reason to discuss each other's actions.
The only requirement to form an opinion and discuss it, is that one consults the data and shows respect (if not necessarily warm-fuzziness) towards others in the discussion. I'd no more deny the right of employees to comment on consumer questions, or pilots to comment on management issues, as long as they're informed and show respect.
As I've said in other threads, my own assessment is that the Comair pilots did a bad thing rejecting the NMB offer,for reasons others have stated well on this thread. A lot of us mere mortals who aren't pilots (and some who are) recognize that Comair pilots really lost their heads here and are destroying a company. Spare us the "you just don't understand" stuff. Nobody's talking about the feeling of flying. We're talking about the business we all have an interest in. And sadly, we're about to lose one of its really fine companies, Comair.
Miller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 711 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1599 times:
Just to show what the Union tells the public, and how twisted the information is they feed the pilots, here is some factual information on the alleged 45 minute increase in actual duty day:
The Offer, which represents ALPA's last table position, actually proposes a decrease in the
maximum scheduled and actual duty day.
Current Contract (Section 12.D):
Maximum Scheduled Duty Day: 14 hours
Maximum Actual Duty Day (due to irregular operations): FAR's (16 hours)
The Offer (Section 12.D.1 and 12.D.2):
Maximum Scheduled Duty Day: Ranges from 11 hours and 15 minutes to 13 hours and 30
Maximum Actual Duty Day: Ranges from 12 hours and 30 minutes to 14 hours and 45
These changes result in a reduction to the scheduled duty period ranging from 30 minutes to 2
hours and 45 minutes and a reduction to the actual duty period due to irregular operations ranging
from 1 hour and 15 minutes to 3 hours and 30 minutes. Incidentally, these maximum scheduled
and actual duty periods proposed in the Offer are the shortest duty periods among airlines
operating similar equipment to Comair.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 20 Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1598 times:
What people (and especially the unions) seem to forget is "what can the company afford to pay".
If the Comair shareholders fold the company, they are fully within their rights to do so. Currently the strike by Comair pilots is threatening not just the jobs of their fellow Comair personell (all 4000+ of them, with 2000 jobs already slashed. Those 2000 cannot be pilots, because it is illegal to fire people on strike...), but also tens of thousands of jobs at parent company Delta airlines. If Comair goes bankrupt because of this, the full burden of paying of the resultant debts will fall on Delta, causing major financial trouble there as well. All that for a few pilots who think a major payraise combined with shorted working hours is not enough?
The same happened years ago when pilots went on strike with (I think it was) PanAm. The company went under and thousands lost their jobs because a few percent of them refused to accept the maximum the company could pay without going under...