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US-Nigeria Routes At Risk  
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8259 times:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6051HP20100106

Nigeria hints they could cancel routes if the US continues to treat Nigeria unfairly.

[Edited 2010-01-06 13:25:19]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8190 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
Nigeria hints they could cancel routes if the US continues to treat Nigeria unfairly.

Let them. It seems to me the Nigerian government has a superiority complex when it comes to international aviation. Does anyone recall when the Nigerian aviation minister wanted 747s and 777s on routes that could only support 763s a while back?

[Edited 2010-01-06 13:48:31]


It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8153 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
I'm tired of countries acting like they're entitled to everything.

I really think that they are entitled to ask that. I really don't understand why they wouldn't.


User currently offlineBartBus From Netherlands, joined Jul 2009, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8092 times:

Well I think Americans traveling to Nigeria are the ones spending money, not the other way round.

User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8057 times:

mmm... so if direct Nigeria-USA flights were cancelled, passengers would travel through CDG, LHR, FRA or AMS more. They would still be scrutinized over there during transit, right??? I don't think Nigeria will get away with it, either way.

Leave it to the African politicians to spin this again in their favor...



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8022 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 2):
I really think that they are entitled to ask that. I really don't understand why they wouldn't.

Because they won't want the answer they receive.


User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7978 times:

Let's not forget the whole Virgin Nigeria debacle. Nigeria is soooo corrupt!

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7966 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 5):

Because they won't want the answer they receive.

Well, if they don't like it, they should proceed as they see fit.


User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7892 times:



Quoting Peanuts (Reply 4):
mmm... so if direct Nigeria-USA flights were cancelled, passengers would travel through CDG, LHR, FRA or AMS more. They would still be scrutinized over there during transit, right??? I don't think Nigeria will get away with it, either way.

It would depend on the other airports/countries following the new US regulations in regards to Nigerians and others on the new list.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7847 times:

Sounds like Nigeria doing its best to try to shoot itself in the foot again, but I will say that the last screening lapse was in AMS, and the US Government is backpedaling as fast as humanly possible to figure out what they already knew and when about the passenger.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7659 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Maybe this new threat is all because the Nigerian government don't like how the US have added their country to the list of requring extra security in the wake of 25/12 attack attempt?

User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7524 times:



Quoting 777ER (Reply 10):
Maybe this new threat is all because the Nigerian government don't like how the US have added their country to the list of requring extra security in the wake of 25/12 attack attempt?

Nigeria needs to be added to that list, it is 75% of the way to being a failed state, its so corrupt that all security controls are negotiable.



BV
User currently offlineSsublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7439 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
It seems to me the Nigerian government has a superiority complex when it comes to international aviation.

Not necessarily. THey feel unwarranted scrutiny is being placed on her citizens.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
Does anyone recall when the Nigerian aviation minister wanted 747s and 777s on routes that could only support 763s a while back?

Already discussed before, 763's were grossly inadequate for that route.

Quoting BartBus (Reply 3):
Well I think Americans traveling to Nigeria are the ones spending money, not the other way round.

Both spend money. Infact I'm 99% sure more Nigerians come to US as tourists than the other way around and spend more. With regards to Business, if the US doesn't do business with Nigeria, plenty others will so really no loss from that angle.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 11):
Nigeria needs to be added to that list, it is 75% of the way to being a failed state, its so corrupt that all security controls are negotiable.

US gave Nigerian airport security a pass mark as recently as Nov 2009, prior to W3 resuming direct LOS - JFK. If your reason for being on the list is anything to go by, there should be more countries on it, wouldn't you agree?

Point is, if the U.S truly felt it was that dangerous, they would have cancelled all direct flights immediately similar to what they did to DL's plans to serve Kenya as a result of threats from pirates.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7394 times:

I wonder if they'll try and use this as a pretext to deny UA landing rights in LOS.


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7378 times:

I remember in the 90s seeing notices at US airports advising travelers that a certain airport in African had inadequate security practices. I think it was LOS, but don't remember for sure. Anybody know what I'm thinking of?

User currently offlineSsublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7336 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 14):
I remember in the 90s seeing notices at US airports advising travelers that a certain airport in African had inadequate security practices. I think it was LOS, but don't remember for sure. Anybody know what I'm thinking of?

You are correct, it was Nigeria, also correct that it was the 90's (early to mid), this is 2010, with 3 direct flights between US & Nigeria it is safe to assume that is no longer the US govt's position.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7276 times:



Quoting Ssublyme (Reply 12):
Already discussed before, 763's were grossly inadequate for that route.

But - and this is the whole point - the assertion that "763s were grossly inadequate" presupposes that the government knows better than the airlines and doesn't answer the question of why/whether this is an appropriate area for government intervention.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7274 times:

I don't understand why they feel unfairly singled out...

The man that tried to blow up the plane was a Nigerian.
The man that tried to blow up the plane originated his travel in Nigeria.

I think it is perfectly rational that Nigerians be added to the list requiring additional scrutiny.



As far as putting the air treaty at risk, if Nigeria thinks additional screening is an inconvenience to its citizens... what do they think of additional screening and an extra stop and few more hours travel time for all trips to the U.S.?

This makes no sense to me.


User currently offlineSsublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7138 times:



Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 17):
The man that tried to blow up the plane was a Nigerian.
The man that tried to blow up the plane originated his travel in Nigeria.

I think it is perfectly rational that Nigerians be added to the list requiring additional scrutiny.

Seems people don't know all the info.

Fact(according to various articles & new reports I've read/listened/watched on it):

- Young man's elementary/high schooling was not in Nigeria

- Young man's college education was not in Nigeria

- Young man's post graduate education was not in Nigeria

(from the above, read young man did not grow up in Nigeria)

- Young man got explosive device & training outside Nigeria

- Young man's father reported him to security agencies after concerns of his son's views, and after said individual cut of ties to family.

- Young man started his journey back to U.S outside Nigeria (meaning, he transited via Lagos & AMS).

- Young man spent all of 30mins in Nigeria (btw entry and checkin for his AMS flight)

- Explosives were not found on him at the origin of his travel outside Nigeria.

- Young man goes through APIS where visa is validated.

- Young man proceeds to check in where:

- Explosives were not found in Nigeria by Nigerian airport security

- Explosives were not found in Nigeria by KLM staff during secondary screening in Nigeria

- Young man was seeing attempting to board AMS - DTW without a passport. Was seeing walked away and later returned to board plane.

- Explosives were not found in AMS during preboard screening of Delta/NW flight to DTW.

- Young man is subdued while trying to detonate device.


It's not quite as clear cut as you put it. Hence the backlash by Nigerian govt. I honestly believe the U.S will re-evaluate the decision to place Nigeria on this list when there is more time to assimilate all the facts.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7092 times:



Quoting Ssublyme (Reply 18):

I respect that I may not know all of the facts, and I read everything you had in there to see if there was something that would change my stance, but nothing you presented changes the fact that this man was a) Nigerian and b) he was able to board an international flight from Nigeria with an explosive device attached to his body. (the fact that he was able to enter Nigeria with the explosive device does not let Nigeria off the hook, it is still a lapse in their security protocols)


User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7049 times:



Quoting Ssublyme (Reply 15):
You are correct, it was Nigeria, also correct that it was the 90's (early to mid), this is 2010, with 3 direct flights between US & Nigeria it is safe to assume that is no longer the US govt's position.

I was making no statement about today; I was just trying to jog my own vague memories. Thank you for filling it in. Those notices always struck me as being curious, as I didn't know the context behind them. What was so bad about LOS, that it got that notice, and nobody else?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 17):
The man that tried to blow up the plane was a Nigerian.

That in itself isn't helpful for making policy. A single Nigerian ends up being recruited (possibly while he's in London), goes to a camp in Yemen, and there it goes. That doesn't tell you much about Nigeria.

Here are citizens of Guyana and Trinidad up to no good. What does that tell you about the state of those countries? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jfk_plot

Here's some Britons and a Jamaican up to no good. What does that tell you about those countries? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

I could go on.

Now, if there were systemic shortcomings in airport security in Nigeria, that's a different matter altogether. Apparently that was the case 10 years ago. I have no idea what the status is today.


User currently offlineSsublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7004 times:



Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 19):
nothing you presented changes the fact that this man was a) Nigerian

That alone proves nothing.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 19):
b) he was able to board an international flight from Nigeria with an explosive device attached to his body

You cannot be certain he had the explosives with him in Nigeria. If that is your criteria for them being on the list, then Netherlands and Ghana should be as well. I could easily suggest he got the explosives in AMS during his attempt to board without a passport. Afterall why risk getting caught in either ACC, LOS or AMS. He had two easier options a) direct flight from ACC to US (eliminating atleast 3 security checks) or b) direct flight from LOS - US (eliminating 2 security checks).

Assuming he had the explosives at the begining of his journey, there was a lapse everywhere, Ghana, Nigeria, US, & Netherlands, so the question is, why is only one country singled out, which boils down to the protest by Nigerian govt.

Anyway, the OP is about what could happen to US - NIG routes at risk, and I maintain this singlular event will likely not jeapordize them.


User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6930 times:



Quoting Ssublyme (Reply 21):

Assuming he had the explosives at the begining of his journey, there was a lapse everywhere, Ghana, Nigeria, US, & Netherlands, so the question is, why is only one country singled out, which boils down to the protest by Nigerian govt.

Agreed. With arguably the worst lapse within the US bureaucracy, for not acting on information it had.

Quoting Ssublyme (Reply 21):
He had two easier options a) direct flight from ACC to US (eliminating atleast 3 security checks) or b) direct flight from LOS - US (eliminating 2 security checks).

His masters would not have wanted him to blow up those planes, though.

Quoting Ssublyme (Reply 21):
Anyway, the OP is about what could happen to US - NIG routes at risk, and I maintain this singlular event will likely not jeapordize them.

Well, the OP is about Nigeria canceling the route out of retaliation. We've been talking about the US policy, but the OP is concerning Nigerian policy.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6915 times:



Quoting Tharanga (Reply 20):

That in itself isn't helpful for making policy.

I did not list that by itself. I coupled it with the fact that he begin his international travel to the U.S. in Nigeria as well.

Quoting Tharanga (Reply 20):

Now, if there were systemic shortcomings in airport security in Nigeria, that's a different matter altogether.

Exactly. You have a Nigerian citizen and a Nigerian airport security. Either by itself might not trigger an alarm, but together I think it is completely reasonable that further scrutiny is justified at least until you completed reevaluate the situation and come up with new procedures that makes everyone comfortable.

I mean let's be honest, I would assume most Nigerians traveling to the U.S. would prefer additional security scrutiny versus being an innocent bystander on flight that was targeted because the Nigerian gov't was offended by additional security measures and would-be terrorists took advantage of the situation.


User currently offlineTharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6864 times:



Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 23):

I did not list that by itself. I coupled it with the fact that he begin his international travel to the U.S. in Nigeria as well.

I daresay he'd also have gotten on board if he embarked in the US. Whether it's LOS or CVG, he had a weapon designed to slip through security. Unless he happened to come across one of the handful of puffer machines, though I hear those don't even work well. At the moment, the Nigeria connections seem incidental to me. But we'll learn more.


25 MaverickM11 : You're assuming the intelligence on Nigeria is based on only one man that is already in custody. That's a bit naive.
26 LAXtoATL : See my response to Tharanga. But that was not one of the facts that you provided. That would change my opinion of this situation. But I think it is r
27 Cubsrule : When they are operational, they do what they are designed to do reasonably well. The problem - and the reason you've heard what you have - is that th
28 LAXtoATL : That is debatable. But the fact still remains he got onboard in LOS. We can't change the facts of the situation. You have to address what happened an
29 Caribb : Americans (media included) should be first and foremost aggressively pressing their government to get all the lines of intelligence communications wor
30 Tharanga : Debatable? You go through security in the US. You have some idea of where his device was hidden. You really think that gets caught, under normal circ
31 Post contains links AirStairs : Isn't that all the more reason for tighter security out of Nigeria in the first place? Not to say that AMS did any better in this regard, but it does
32 Alphaomega : The security lapses and the attack attempt aside, if Nigeria's issue with the additional security screening is that it will inconvenience passengers,
33 Atlwest1 : Because I think the intended target and purpose is directed at the US not at a country the flight might go to.
34 Tharanga : The US doesn't even deploy those in any widespread fashion. Why would the US be angry at any other country for not spending the small fortune involve
35 Tharanga : I don't follow. the 9/11 planes departed from US airports. Several planes in the Bojinka plot were due to depart US, and explode in Asia.
36 StasisLAX : Correct. If anything, Nigerians should be VERY concerned about their own aviation security and taking every step possible to insure general safety: "
37 AirStairs : I am not trying to say that the US employs them well at all, only that both the US and authorities in charge at AMS have indicated that they will be
38 MandingoBoy : Here we go again with shoot from the hip comments. In terms of security lapses, everybody failed here. The Nigerian and Dutch airports for not picking
39 AirStairs : The whole 14-country restriction is a little moot, because well-funded terrorist operations will have no problem a) recruiting from countries not on
40 MasseyBrown : A longer version of the Reuters report says that is the reason. I'm not sure why the US has to publish a list of countries - why not just put the mea
41 MandingoBoy : I agree completely and that's the point of the Nigerian government. They have already agreed to install body scans immediately. Since the 12/25 attac
42 727forever : I feel that all of this is a moot point as Obama will back down to the political pressure anyway. The Nigerians will continue making noise about this
43 Sflaflight : That's the problem. The US is talking too much, as always. CNN is everywhere on the planet (well most everywhere). The terrorists are watching it lef
44 ETinCaribe : Totally in agreement. In the 12/25 incident, all airports and carriers failed. Even though we will NEVER know, my gut feeling is that only a handful
45 Pellegrine : I will say good for Nigeria. The US needs to understand that on a broad level that its decisions with respect to international travel restrictions hav
46 AirStairs : While I agree that it's not very likely that such screening is actually going to stop a terrorist, it remains a fact that terror cells and Muslim ext
47 AsoRock : I've read what Ssublyme had to say and i must agree with him. Considering the information gathered so far, it does not make sense to judge Nigeria as
48 MillwallSean : One thing I don't get is the mentality some shown by some Americans here. The US is right to do what it wants to people arriving to their country but
49 Tharanga : I've been beating this drum, but I'll also give a caveat. My answer: NO. When you get a tip, you work quickly to check up on it. But I wouldn't revok
50 Jfk777 : Secure travel to Nigeria is possible, before the USA worried about terrorism they worried ( and still do ) about drugs. While I am not a security expe
51 Yellowtail : I would like to point out an obvious fact...the passenger who evaded security in LOS also did so in AMS. Perhaps we should put the netherlands on the
52 MasseyBrown : I suspect that the only people bothered by doing it quietly would be the 24-hour news media which thrive on maximal hysteria. As for the other end of
53 Tharanga : I'd say the people bothered would be a good chunk of the electorate. The people want action, which means they want something they can see. So here, h
54 MasseyBrown : I understand your point and it's a popular one; I just don't think serious diplomacy should be theatre. Short of war, international relations should
55 Enilria : First, let me say that from what I know (which is little) Cuba has every right to feel shafted by the new rules, BUT Nigeria really doesn't. I'm gues
56 Post contains links MaverickM11 : You guys are still assuming that the recommendation is based on one guy that is already in custody. Nigeria is a big country, with a lot of problems,
57 Tharanga : It isn't the diplomacy that's the theatre, it's the security measures. The diplomacy just gets caught in the middle. These actions are meant to Ameri
58 EXCOASA1982 : How are security staff going to know who to give extra scrutiny to? If I was coming from LOS-FRA then going FRA-EWR, I would just show my FRA-EWR boa
59 Tharanga : You could reconfigure the airport. Flights from Schengen countries already arrive in a different area from non-Schengen countries, with appropriate p
60 Post contains links AirStairs : I can say that I would be happy to comply with any extra security that Nigeria (or any other country) demands of inbound US citizens. It is the price
61 Tharanga : Intelligence and profiling are two entirely different things. You seem to be mixing them up. In this case, the US had an intelligence lead on the sus
62 AirStairs : Ben-Gurion uses both, and that is the point (hence the quote "A man with the name of Umar flying out of Tel Aviv, whether he is American or British,
63 Tharanga : From the tenor of comments here, over different topics, I think a lot of people here would object to behavior profiling on a pregnant Irish girl. The
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