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DL's Old Plans For MIA Hub  
User currently onlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 428 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7724 times:

Hi all. I was curious about something, and I was hoping some of you guys could answer.

I remember a few years ago details of DL planning a hub/Latin American gateway at MIA that was apparently discussed/planned internally but never announced to the public. I believe the plan was to move into the new terminal and begin heavy operations to Latin America, tapping into AA's dominance of the local market. I know DL tried this in the past with some P2P Latin American routes from FLL, but they did not stick. From what I remember, the MIA routes went beyond the simple "planning" stages, and the expansion was very nearly implemented. A couple of questions:

1. What exactly was the overall plan? Were they going to set up feed to MIA from around the country/intra-Florida, or rely strictly on MIA O/D traffic? What routes was DL planning on starting/with what equipment? Where was capacity to be shifted from to support the DL gateway?

2. Why was the idea dropped fairly late into the process? Did DL decide it wasn't worth it to battle it out with AA?

3. Is the idea totally dead now, or is it on the table for future expansion?

Thanks in advance for your input!

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7631 times:

Never heard that rumor when I was working for them. What time period are we talking about?

At one time Ron Allen wanted to start an Asian hub in TPE.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7427 times:



Quoting HVNandrew (Thread starter):

DL was going to use Concourse J, which UA had abandonded plans for. In the end, it will end up being the Star Alliance terminal for MIA, while the North Terminal will be used by OneWorld and Concourses F, G and H will be used by SkyTeam.

Quoting Mayor (Reply 1):
What time period are we talking about?

A couple years ago, DL was planning a focus city for LatAm traffic at MIA to counter AA's dominance. It was started briefly at FLL for a few months, then pulled down completely.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11452 posts, RR: 61
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7333 times:

This is the rumor I remember - from October 2002:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles-pre-worldperks-merger/55924-dl-moving-rest-their-south-american-flights-mia.html


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7074 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7333 times:



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):
A couple years ago, DL was planning a focus city for LatAm traffic at MIA to counter AA's dominance. It was started briefly at FLL for a few months, then pulled down completely.

Would it have been better to use MCO or even FLL over MIA, they could have tried making MCO the "northern" MIA rather than going into the lions den. MCO may be less shopping, more vacations and conventions but they already have good presence, multiple connections up north to ATL and they could have attempted more growth. Geographically it is closer to ATL than MIA but ATL is also an issue that AA has used with MIA for connections, ATL is too far north if going west.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7299 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 4):
Would it have been better to use MCO or even FLL over MIA, they could have tried making MCO the "northern" MIA rather than going into the lions den. MCO may be less shopping, more vacations and conventions but they already have good presence, multiple connections up north to ATL and they could have attempted more growth. Geographically it is closer to ATL than MIA but ATL is also an issue that AA has used with MIA for connections, ATL is too far north if going west.

Why? MCO connections can be handled via ATL. It is trash yields that don't mind going via Atlanta. And, contrary to popular belief, Orlando-South America is not a large market outside of Venezuela and Brazil.

The only benefit of DL or anybody else opening up MIA-South America is capturing high-yielding local traffic that they can't capture from any other hub; and MIA could probably support a two-hub operation if another airline has the guts to go against AA. There is no dire need for anybody to do it, however.



a.
User currently onlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3039 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7299 times:

South Florida is hard market. UA was barely able to let MIA slide, and after 9/11 it just fell flew. And US tried FLL, and that didn't work.

FLL has NK , B6, and WN ...MIA has AA.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3255 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7276 times:

This is was never contemplated. Lock this thread down. It's just silly.

User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7277 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):

I remember the rumor the OP is referring to and it was definitely much more recent than that (about 2-3 years ago). No one ever came out and said what DL's plans were but it was hinted that DL was close to announcing some Latin America service from MIA. Apparently just Central America and Carribean but not deep South America. In the end they started a route from FLL (I think SDQ) but that was pulled fairly quickly.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 7):
This is was never contemplated. Lock this thread down. It's just silly.

Whether or not it was really contemplated is, of course, a different story but there really was a thread on hear hinting at this a few years ago. It was a lot of winking, etc. and no one really ever came out and said anything concrete. I'll do a search and see if I can find it.

[Edited 2010-01-07 18:02:04]


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7185 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):

Whether or not it was really contemplated is, of course, a different story but there really was a thread on hear hinting at this a few years ago. It was a lot of winking, etc. and no one really ever came out and said anything concrete. I'll do a search and see if I can find it.

See:
New Delta International Gateway? (by Papatango Mar 7 2007 in Civil Aviation)
Delta Int'l Gateway Annoucement? When? (by MD90fan May 7 2007 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32620 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7151 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6):
South Florida is hard market. UA was barely able to let MIA slide, and after 9/11 it just fell flew. And US tried FLL, and that didn't work.

Neither put in an actual effort. Put in effort, and you can succeed. South Florida is extremely competitive to Latin America. There are very few monopoly routes, and some routes like San Jose and Bogota have 3-4 airlines.

Only Uruguay is a one-airline market.



a.
User currently onlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7144 times:



Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 9):

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):

Whether or not it was really contemplated is, of course, a different story but there really was a thread on hear hinting at this a few years ago. It was a lot of winking, etc. and no one really ever came out and said anything concrete. I'll do a search and see if I can find it.

See:
New Delta International Gateway? (by Papatango Mar 7 2007 in Civil Aviation)
Delta Int'l Gateway Annoucement? When? (by MD90fan May 7 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Thank you. That's exactly what I was referring to.


User currently offlineBOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6820 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Neither put in an actual effort. Put in effort, and you can succeed.

I agree. It would be really interesting to see someone other than AA actually try in MIA, namely, DL or CO. UA clearly was not interested in MIA or JFK.

Of course, it would be terrible for AA, because the MIA hub is the most unique part of its network, and maybe the most unique hub any US airline has.



Getting There is Half the Fun!
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8288 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6715 times:
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DL has a great South American operation from ATL even feeding passengers from Florida. ATL can feed from every corner of the USA except maybe Miami itself.

User currently offlineSflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6617 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 13):
DL has a great South American operation from ATL even feeding passengers from Florida. ATL can feed from every corner of the USA except maybe Miami itself.

yes it does, but MIA O&D would be more profitable. It can feed for sure, but feed tends to be less profitable than O&D. Anyone going Florida-Lat Am via ATL is doing it for the cheaper fares DL offers or possibly FF loyalty.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6584 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6555 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
There are very few monopoly routes, and some routes like San Jose and Bogota have 3-4 airlines.

Which is exactly why you don't need another carrier flying these routes. If DL (or CO or UA) were to try and create another hub at MIA, it would be a disaster.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6455 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 7):
This is was never contemplated. Lock this thread down. It's just silly.

What a funny comment  rotfl 

Reminds me of the guy who did not want to see any discussion of Dubai's financial problems effect on Emirates.

DL kicked the tires on taking over J when it opened in 2007. Are you going to make us dig up the evidence?


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3255 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6385 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
What a funny comment

Reminds me of the guy who did not want to see any discussion of Dubai's financial problems effect on Emirates.

DL kicked the tires on taking over J when it opened in 2007. Are you going to make us dig up the evidence?

Dig it up. A.net rumors don't count. Have fun.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6272 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
Whether or not it was really contemplated is, of course, a different story but there really was a thread on hear hinting at this a few years ago. It was a lot of winking, etc. and no one really ever came out and said anything concrete.

Sounds like the M.O. of many of the DL folks in recent threads. For example, "hinting" at a future DL+AS merger. Acting like "they know" but with no actual evidence. It's subtle, but it's there. The challenge is that, two years from now, we'll look back and say "Hey, do you remember when DL was going to make a run for AS after the NW merger?" and you'll hear - possibly from the same folks - that it was just "an A.net rumor".  Smile

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 17):
Dig it up. A.net rumors don't count. Have fun.

Fair enough, but see above. After all, without a press release, what does anyone really have to go on?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6146 times:



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 12):
UA clearly was not interested in MIA or JFK.

I'll agree with that. Post 9/11, UA had no plans to keep up with its focus cities or mini hubs, only to focus on their 5 main hubs. JFK, MIA, EWR, SEA and BOS all lost service. In some cases such as MIA, JFK, EWR, UA decided to shut down their crew and pilot bases as well. I think the sad thing is that some routes for UA out of MIA were indeed profitable. Mainly to South America.

With that said, I really don't recall DL having any plans to build up MIA in the early 2000s. I thought initially when this thread was started it was going to focus on DL contemplating to keep MIA as a latin american gateway in the post-PA years during the early/mid 1990s. DL did have a pretty strong presence in FLL for quite a while though (arguably still do.)



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6121 times:



Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):
Sounds like the M.O. of many of the DL folks in recent threads. For example, "hinting" at a future DL+AS merger. Acting like "they know" but with no actual evidence. It's subtle, but it's there. The challenge is that, two years from now, we'll look back and say "Hey, do you remember when DL was going to make a run for AS after the NW merger?" and you'll hear - possibly from the same folks - that it was just "an A.net rumor".

Well, looking at both of those referenced threads, I can't see where the implication is by DL people. Both of the threads are predicated on rumors and in fact, very little reference is made to MIA and FLL turned out to be the actual "gateway".

Since everyone else on A.net deals in rumor and innuendo, why can't the DL fans?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6415 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6120 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Neither put in an actual effort. Put in effort, and you can succeed

Just curious, for UA, was it specifically a gate issue? As of now, can someone get access to 7-10 gates to start a small hub. FL would interesting to see cities hat a 73G could handle.



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6055 times:



Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 21):
As of now, can someone get access to 7-10 gates to start a small hub.

MAH would know for sure but as far as I know all gates at MIA are on month to month leases or common use....so probably quite easily.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6052 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5981 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Only Uruguay is a one-airline market.

So is BZE and some of the Caribbean destinations ...like SKB.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently onlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3039 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5701 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Neither put in an actual effort. Put in effort, and you can succeed. South Florida is extremely competitive to Latin America. There are very few monopoly routes, and some routes like San Jose and Bogota have 3-4 airlines.

Only Uruguay is a one-airline market.

I don't mean by capacity, I mean AA will do everything they can to kick them out of the market.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
25 PlanesNTrains : Oh, I agree. However, if that's the case I don't think it's appropriate to then turn around and request a thread be locked up over the same thing. -D
26 Mpdpilot : Of the airports served in South America 10 of 22 are one airline routes, of the airports served in Central America and the Caribbean 27 of 43 are one
27 MAH4546 : I didn't say MIA, I said South Florida, where Spirit and Aires add extensive competition to Central America and Colombia; I also mentioned nothing ab
28 PeachAir : The only thing we came close to contemplating was making a central / south american hub out of MCO. We had even loaded inventory for MCO-SJO/SDQ/GUA,
29 Sflaflight : well AA has monopoly to BZE but, and not to be picky, to me BZE is not Lat Am, especially in aviation. It is more Caribbean. Same goes for SKB. I gue
30 Mpdpilot : Well if you include FLL there are 5 destinations where the competition is increased by a new carrier. I wouldn't exactly say that is a lot. There are
31 MAH4546 : The Caribbean is not Latin America outside of Cuba and the Dominican Republic based on the most commonly regarded definition of "Latin America." Rega
32 BOACCunard : "Latin America" generally refers to countries that speak Spanish or Portuguese, not French. (Does anyone consider Quebec to be Latin America?) Spanis
33 MAH4546 : The boundaries of what constitutes "Latin America" vary by country. In the U.S., we are taught that Latin America is the Spanish and Portuguese speak
34 MPDPilot : Fair enough, but there was no way for me to know that. Perhaps we just don't see the term "few" in the same way. I would say there are far more then
35 Belizexp : We did have a MCO MEX it was around 95-96 the return trip was MEX - MCO - LGA- BDL
36 Jetlanta : Well, if that is the standard we aspire to on a.net, here are some juicy topics to discuss: US Airway's old plans to buy Carnival Cruise Lines and Am
37 PlanesNTrains : Way to take it to the extreme. Anyhow, the point I was making is that we have had plenty of "winky winky" threads - I believe you may have even share
38 Jetlanta : I wasn't serious about having the thread locked. If I had been, i'd have suggested it formally. This thread was setting into the common a.net trap of
39 Sflaflight : You're right Mark. I'm Italian born, and I constantly say I'm Latin in Miami and Spanish speakers agree. But when I tell Americans I'm Latin, they la
40 DeltaL1011man : Someone.....not pointing any fingers, needs to chill.
41 JohnClipper : UA had access to all ex-PA gates at Terminal F and E. If it was enough for PA to run Caribbean and Central/South America along with US feed, it shoul
42 BOACCunard : I know that France and Italy are Latin countries, I'd just never heard "Latin America" used to refer to Haiti, or France's possessions in the America
43 OB1504 : As mentioned earlier, UA never really cared about MIA in the first place. I still think DL and its SkyTeam partners should be moved there. In about 1
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