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Why Doesn't Ryanair Consider Newfoundland?  
User currently offlineGc2 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 53 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12983 times:

I've wondered why O'Leary hasn't had a look at a route from, say Shannon to St John's. Its only about 1500 nautical miles. It would potentially open up North America. Most Newfoundlanders are of Irish descent o the tourism both ways would fuel traffic. St John's is looking to expand and improving the ILS, there's no competition and I bet the province would fall over themselves to do a deal. Discuss

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12937 times:

Is a city population of just over 100,000, a CMA population of a little over 181,000 enough to support regular service?

(2006 numbers the latest I can find).

Also, I would expect the route to be a bit longer if they use NAT.


User currently offlineGc2 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12884 times:

You would get plenty of Irish and UK passengers. Remember Ryanair is one of the biggest airlines in Europe, and they have a large network. Also they often use smaller regional centers to open up new areas. Distance wise I'm sure they could manage it in a 738.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12832 times:

Potential market is much too small in my opinion, and certainly not year-round. If there was a market, one of the many Canadian charter/leisure carriers over the years would have done it by now.

Quoting Gc2 (Thread starter):
Shannon to St John's. Its only about 1500 nautical miles.

It's 1691 nm. It's also far enough that when turnaround time and allowance for delays and unpredictable weather are considered, it's highly unlikely the same crew could operate the round trip. That means extra costs for crew hotel and meals at YYT and poor crew utilization. It would also require ETOPS certification for the aircraft used on that route which adds more costs and complexity and deviates from Ryanair's highly standardized fleet and low-cost model.


User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12822 times:

The regulatory hoops that Ryanair would need to jump through to gain approval to fly into Canada probably wouldn't make the venture worth it. Despite "open skies" treaties abound, the CTA remains extremely protective of Canadian airlines and probably won't make the process easy or even possible for Ryanair.

Also, Newfoundland is the most economically depressed province in Canada, so there really isn't a market for international travel from anywhere on the Rock, beyond what is already serviced via connections through Toronto and Montreal.

[Edited 2010-01-10 17:37:51]


Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12750 times:

Quoting MrChips (Reply 4):
The regulatory hoops that Ryanair would need to jump through to gain approval to fly into Canada probably wouldn't make the venture worth it. Despite "open skies" treaties abound, the CTA remains extremely protective of Canadian airlines and probably won't make the process easy or even possible for Ryanair.

What are you talking about? Canada-EU is now an Open Skies market and all Canadian and EU-based carriers now have free access to any markets they want to fly, subject only to meeting the usualy safety and operational requirements. The Canadian goverenment no longer has any control over carrier designation between Canada and the 27 EU member states.

The Canada-EU Open Skies agreement was reached early last year and was formally signed and went into effect just 3 weeks ago. Relevant Canadian government press release.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/releases-2009-h172e-5755.htm

Excerpt:

The Canada-EU Comprehensive Air Transport Agreement will allow any number of air carriers from Canada and the EU member states to operate direct scheduled passenger and all-cargo air services to any cities between each partner's territory as frequently as desired. Air carriers will also be able to pick up traffic in each partner's territory and continue to a third country as part of a service to or from their home territory.

All 27 EU member states signed the agreement today, and the agreement will arrive in Canada on December 18, 2009, for signing.


[Edited 2010-01-10 18:04:29]

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12694 times:



Quoting Gc2 (Reply 2):
You would get plenty of Irish and UK passengers.

Going where? Newfoundland, by itself, is nowhere near large enough to support a TATL route from anywhere. And the connection prospects from there are pretty poor. Why would you want to fly starting point-Shannon-St.John's-Toronto/Quebec-destination when you could go starting point-hub-destination with a larger carrier?

Tom.


User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12651 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
Going where? Newfoundland, by itself, is nowhere near large enough to support a TATL route from anywhere

I think the poster is really hinting at O&D demand from Newfoundland to Ireland. While a business model like Ryanair's could probably stimulate demand from nothing (they have done it before!), the complexities for FR of a transatlatic op probably rule it out.

That said, the ethnic links between Newfoundland and Ireland are undeniable (right up to Newfoundlanders still speaking in Irish regional accents...)

Also, AC do operate YYT-LHR on the A319, so clearly there is some demand from Newfoundland to somewhere....  Wink



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12644 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
Quoting Gc2 (Reply 2):
You would get plenty of Irish and UK passengers.

Going where? Newfoundland, by itself, is nowhere near large enough to support a TATL route from anywhere.

AC recently announced daily seasonal A319 service YYT-LHR-YYT between May and September this year.
http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi...173991&view=13213-0&Start=10&htm=0

Their previous seasonal effort (which was less than daily) on this route a couple of years ago was a failure and was dropped a month or so before the originally announced termination date. But it had a terrible schedule with virtually no connections at LHR, and the westbound flight arrived YYT after midnight. That was no doubt due to LHR slot constraints at the time. The new schedule overcomes those problems.


User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1646 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 12495 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
It's 1691 nm. It's also far enough that when turnaround time and allowance for delays and unpredictable weather are considered, it's highly unlikely the same crew could operate the round trip.

Yet NZ crews operate a return AKL-PPT-AKL with a 763 in a single day - this is 2,211 nm each way, a signfiicant increase on the 1,691 nm from SNN to YYT. And if anyone can push the limits, it has to be Ryanair. So I doubt that's a serious reason for not operating the route. Some of the arguments put up by other posters may, however, be more valid.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineYYZALA From Canada, joined Nov 2009, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 12420 times:

I think the biggest reason (at the moment) that FR doesn't operate to Canada is due to fleet commonality. A few planes and crew trained for ETOPS is not their model. I'm sure there are better markets at the moment that they can tap, while still maintaining fleet commonality. On the other hand, WJ flies from Edmonton/Vancouver all the way to Hawaii so I'm assuming they can use those ETOPS planes for an Atlantic route.

User currently offlineRidgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 12379 times:

Why hasn't WestJet tried it? They allready have etops.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 12362 times:



Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 9):
Yet NZ crews operate a return AKL-PPT-AKL with a 763 in a single day - this is 2,211 nm each way, a signfiicant increase on the 1,691 nm from SNN to YYT.

However I doubt AKL-PPT is subject to the highly unpredictable weather at YYT (snow, fog, strong winds etc.) Diversions for weather reasons aren't unheard of especially this time of year. And if the inbound flight was delayed more than a couple of hours it would mean no crew available to operate the return flight.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12277 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
Newfoundland, by itself, is nowhere near large enough to support a TATL route from anywhere.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
AC recently announced daily seasonal A319 service YYT-LHR-YYT between May and September this year.



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 7):
Also, AC do operate YYT-LHR on the A319

Serves me right for not doing my homework...good catch.

Tom.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12140 times:

The primary EU link from NL is London. There is little to no demand for flights to Ireland. There has never even been a summer charter series betw Ireland and NL.

Even Ryanair cannot squeeze traffic out of a rock. No pun intended.

Quoting Gc2 (Thread starter):
Most Newfoundlanders are of Irish descent

Nope. British. Not Irish.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12034 times:

Me wonders that no one yet has come up with Montreal East.  Wink


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User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11965 times:



Quoting Gc2 (Reply 2):
You would get plenty of Irish and UK passengers. Remember Ryanair is one of the biggest airlines in Europe, and they have a large network.

Ryanair is no network carrier. They strongly discourage you to take a FR flight and then a next one, and will not help you if the first is late.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
Even Ryanair cannot squeeze traffic out of a rock. No pun intended.

This on the other hand I doubt, no pun intended. The successfully opened connection from the middle of nowhere to another middle of noway.

Would the first below 100$ TATL tickets be enough of a stunt to go for MoL? The costs and technical difficulties have been discussed - but be sure once an FR plane lands in Newfoundland, it will refuel and fly to more interesting destinations, Niagara Falls as example?


User currently offlineSpantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11317 times:

I was wondering... If St-John's seems a little far away and with all the ETOPS problems, etc, why nor Reikiavik? It's only 1,020 NM from Stansted and althought Iceland is in a very bad shape right now, it will recover. Besides,Iceland will be the next member of the European Union, no doubt about it, in a couple of years. And fares with Icelandair are not specially cheap.


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User currently offlineClydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11278 times:

Leaving aside all the other reasons why this won't happen.

There is no way Ryanair would maintain a sub fleet of ETOPS aircraft for this route.

They get huge efficiency on standardisation and this is a big part of their core strategy.

If they were to get into ETOPS ops, they would probably need a fleet and network for 50 aircraft to get the kind of scale that would work for them.


User currently offlineKristiaanD From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11136 times:
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Quoting Burkhard (Reply 16):
Ryanair is no network carrier. They strongly discourage you to take a FR flight and then a next one, and will not help you if the first is late.

Negative, they officially do not support it but in todays market we see an increase in the number of PAX who perform 'self-hubbing' behaviour. Even within the 'network' of Ryanair. Ofcourse, the dangers and risks are on the account of the traveller but most of the times the benefit is of more value.



"The airport runway is the most important mainstreet in any town." -Quoted from : Norm Crabtree.
User currently offlineMotopolitico From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11045 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Me wonders that no one yet has come up with Montreal East. Wink

I was thinking FR could advertise it as Charlottetown (St. John's) or even St John (St. John's). St John (St John's) would fit FR about right. Why not do St. John's (Goose Bay)?



Garbage stinks; trash don't!
User currently offline777klm From China, joined Apr 2005, 530 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10974 times:



Quoting Spantax (Reply 17):
Besides,Iceland will be the next member of the European Union, no doubt about it, in a couple of years.

No doubt the WON'T be the next EU member. At this stage only Croatia, F.Y.R. of Macedonia and Turkey are official candidates. Especially with their current situation, they won't see any EU membership soon.

Back to topic; don't you all think that there are plenty of other routes here in Europe Ryanair will startup first. Any Moscow airport comes to mind, but also Turkey, Greece and other Balkan countries.



Next flight: AMS-PEK
User currently offlineGc2 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10916 times:

"Nope. British. Not Irish."

Actually both, certainly around St John's. My grandafther was a Newfie and his ancestry was from what is now the Republic of Ireland. The majority of the settlers through the 18th/19th century came from the west of Ireland, with some from Devon, Cornwall (England) and a few Scots.


User currently offlineJimbobjoe From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10690 times:

The impression I have is that Ryanair's business model is to take one aircraft and have it make a bunch of little flights in one day. This way it is fine to charge a relatively low fare for one flight, because half an hour after arrival, a whole bunch of new fares are going to be on the plane. And a half hour after that flight is over, a new set of fares are found on the plane.

Ryainair does have flights of a semi-similar length already. But the difference is that the plane is still in Europe. So an aircraft might get scheduled on a 2hr 30 min flight, but then the rest of the day is spent on little 1hr flights (for instance.)

But if they sent a plane to Newfoundland, the only thing it could do is return back to Ireland, assuming that they don't develop a North American network (which is still quite some distance from Newfoundland.) So in, say, a 7 hour period, a 737 will only make two flights (SNN-YYT-SNN) and that means just two groups of fare paying passengers, whereas within Europe they might be able to manage, say, 4 flights in the same time period.

This is not to say it wouldn't be profitable, it's just not ideal.

You can make it more ideal by:

*getting a lot more higher paying fares on the flight, which is achievable by having more complex yield management, as well as premium class seating (neither of which is Ryanair's style)

*using a bigger airplane that can carry a bunch more people. And Ryanair has hinted in the past that they might create a spin-off airline with bigger planes to do exactly that.

This reasoning is also why Southwest doesn't do all that much with long flights. Yes, they do have a few east coast to west coast flights but for an airline their size it's a pretty small amount. Such flights lock up a 737 for a fairly long time, so it's a strategy used sparingly.


User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10661 times:



Quoting Spantax (Reply 17):
It's only 1,020 NM from Stansted and althought Iceland is in a very bad shape right now, it will recover. Besides,Iceland will be the next member of the European Union, no doubt about it, in a couple of years. And fares with Icelandair are not specially cheap.

Iceland Express already operates KEF-STN.



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
25 KristiaanD : More complex yield management? No, just as every other route, a new set of fares belonging to a new city pair. As long as you are still lower then th
26 Pe@rson : Michael O'Leary is FR's CEO, not their Director of New Route Development. The relevant person is Ken O'Toole.
27 Airbazar : Why does everyone automatically assume that Ryanair will be the first European LCC to operate TATL? What about Easyjet? They already have the airplane
28 BrouAviation : Which isn't to be used for hub & spoke. I wouldn't risk my TATL flight when a carrier officially discourages it. Next to that, baggage transfer isn't
29 Airbuseric : That service is not operated anymore by AC ... as far as I can see the schedules. Due lack of demand?
30 Gilesdavies : The A319s do not have the legs to operate this route... None of easyJets A319s have a centre fuel tank and this restricts them to routes up to about
31 Post contains links Sketty222 : Someone should notify AC http://res.aircanada.com/TimeTableSe...=english&year=2010&month=06&day=10
32 KristiaanD : Probably you wouldn't take the risk, but a lot of people are discovering the advantages and do make their own 'connections' on LCC networks. They can
33 RFields5421 : Actually I would be very surprised if O'Leary, O'Toole or whomever has not looked at TATL routes, at least in general terms. There are a lot of reaso
34 Post contains links Voodoo : Although I agree with the other reasons why FR won't do this, I don't think the Newfoundland economy is necessarily still one of them. Times have cha
35 Brilondon : I would love to see this.happen. Although FR might just have to have new aircraft as I would not want to sit bolt upright in their aircraft for the ti
36 Lukeyboy95 : Who knows how to predict where FR's business plan is going next. They still seem very focused on central Europe but its feelers are delving deeper int
37 KGAIflyer : Okay, as a non-Canadian, I find this is all *very* confusing. And it will confuse tourists. I know uranium miners travel to Goose Bay and into the in
38 Crj200faguy : Technically speaking, aren't you either English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh? I was under the impression there is no such ancestry as British.
39 BA84 : Your knowledge of Canadian geography is excellant! Welcome to my respected list. BA84
40 UALWN : Easyjet doesn't do connections, just like FR doesn't. If you self-connect, you are on your own. No baggage transfer, nothing.
41 Gc2 : I did hear a rumour (I work at Stansted), that Ryanair does own a couple of wide bodies that it is leasing to another airline, but could be made avail
42 LongHauler : How so? The A319s that AC has flown/will fly YYT-LHR are physically the same as the rest of the A319 fleet. Equipment has been added to make them ETO
43 RFields5421 : The A319 under discussion were the EasyJet aircraft without the center fuel tank. We all know AC can and does fly that route occasionally. The discus
44 Airbazar : Adding the CFT to an A319 is a trivial process. That certainly wouldn't be the deterrent factor.
45 Post contains links JRadier : Officially... I'd say go talk to the marketing manager of BAA Stansted, he'll tell you something else Welcome to a minority. Air Asia officially disc
46 Heathrow : In order to make this practical, you'd have to have an agreement with WS or someone (I don't really see who else there is for FR). YYT is not a market
47 LongHauler : You would have to be able to offer a fare cheaper than AC, BA or TS ... and this is not likely. Not when you have to factor in a routing through YYT,
48 Heathrow : This would be the ideal situation, but the range of their aircraft is insufficient. Could they possibly do a fuel stop in YYT? Even fly STN - YYT - Y
49 Ps76 : Personally I think it's too far with too little demand for Ryanair. Ryanair look for cheap airports (I'll assume St.John's is a cheap airport) but I d
50 ACDC8 : If the fare is right, absolutly. I've flown on FR several times and haven't a single complaint. But, again, only if the fare is right. If I only save
51 KGAIflyer : Must have been my years at UPEI.
52 DavecFlyer : Off topic but I thought about this when I visited Reykjavik last February. I don't know the runway lengths but Reykjavik airport (as opposed to Kefla
53 Viscount724 : Longest runway at REK is 5141 ft (others 4035 and 3050 ft.). KEF has two 10,000 ft. runways.
54 Bwaflyer : Astraeus operated charter and scheduled flights between LGW and YYT for a couple of years on the 73G, and the crew operated it as a turnaround - it's
55 AC_B777 : I don't know where you have been for the last 4 years, but NL's economy is booming! We are no longer a "have not" province. We no longer recieve equi
56 Shamrock604 : Irish doesnt come under the heading of British anyway. This is a different country, not part of the United Kingdom, except for Northern Ireland. To u
57 Viscount724 : It's possible but for a regular frequent scheduled service it increases the risk of winding up without a crew if there's a significant delay, with re
58 BA84 : I take that back! BA84
59 EMB170 : Not so sure. There was a thread on this board not long ago asking why FL hadn't started transborder flights yet...(FL had even said they wanted to fr
60 Pe@rson : No. Likewise all the other bonker ideas proposed by repliers to this thread, like one-stop services, connections, partnerships with other carriers, a
61 Pnwtraveler : I think if there was a market for more volume from Newfoundland to Britain, you might see WestJet add this as their first cross-pond venture. At least
62 Luckyone : Dude it's Greater Montreal.....
63 Wexfordflyer : If the prices are right then I would and am quite sure plenty of others would be too. Sure, BA would be a much nicer flight and more enjoyable but wh
64 Gr8Circle : You would, if you're an a.nutter
65 AuroraLives : I keep seeing these comments.... and keep posting something like this: These kinds of statements always confuse me. Please look at the following exam
66 BA84 : You've got your underwear in a knot! It's Stansted. (Stanfield is Canada's leading brand of underwear.) BA84
67 GhYHZ : And YHZ is: Halifax – Robert L. Stanfield International Airport……named for the former Premier Of Nova Scotia and Federal PC Leader (and from th
68 ACDC8 : quote=AuroraLives,reply=65]ATL - YYZ cheapest fare is $324 + $10.70 taxes and fees ATL - BUF cheapest fare is $79 + $ 10.70 taxes and fees[/quote] Dep
69 RussianJet : What makes you think it hasn't been considered? And then, probably dismissed for any number of sound operational reasons?
70 Viscount724 : Depressing, isn't it?[/quote] I expect YYZ-ATL demand is much greater than BUF-ATL. You charge what the traffic will bear. Many people are quite happ
71 KGAIflyer : ACDC, you are clearly shopping at Wal-Mart of Canada.
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