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Widebody Engine Sales 2005-2009  
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3526 times:

(Nobody wanted to join my last post  Angry so I'll try another one.)

Over the past 60 months (January 2005 – December 2009) 5168 engines have been sold on widebodies (not counting spares). (This is net and is updated along with orders and cancellations.)

The annual number has fluctuated significantly.

2005 = 1156
2006 = 870
2007 = 2000
2008 = 916
2009 = 226

Several orders, especially recent ones, still have not made an engine selection so all of the above numbers will change.

GE have sold 2484 (48.1%)
RR have sold 2268 (43.9%)
PW have sold 208 (4%)
EA have sold 176 (3.4%)
CFM have sold 32 (0.6%)

So, over the past five years it has become largely a two-horse race with GE enjoying a small but worthwhile lead over RR. (Add half of CFM and EA to GE’s total and it becomes something like 52% vs 44%.)

Best-selling engines:
GE GEnx = 1164 (22.5%) 787, 747
RR Trent XWB = 998 (19.3%) A350
GE GE90 = 856 (16.6%) 777
RR Trent 700 = 684 (13.2%) A330
GE CF6 = 464 (9%) 747, 767, A300, A330
RR Trent 1000 = 344 (6.7%) 787
PW PW4000 = 208 (4%) 747, 767, 777, A300, A330
EA GP7000 = 176 (3.4%) A380
RR Trent 900 = 140 (2.7%) A380
RR Trent 500 = 80 (1.5%) A340
CFM CFM56 = 32 (0.6%) A340
RR Trent 800 = 14 (0.3%) 777
RR RB211 = 8 (0.2%) 747

But what is really fascinating (for me!) is the fact that whereas GE comfortably outsold RR in 2005 and 2006, RR have easily outsold GE in each of the past three years.

Here’s the trend:
2005-2009 = GE 48% / RR 44%
2006-2009 = GE 40% / RR 52%
2007-2009 = GE 33% / RR 59%
2008-2009 = GE 29% / RR 60%

Over the past three years (2007, 2008, 2009) RR have gained 58.6% of sales and GE 33.2%.

The best-selling engines over the past three years have been:
RR Trent XWB = 998 (31.8%) A350
RR Trent 700 = 530 (16.9%) A330
GE GEnx = 436 (13.9%) 787, 747
GE GE90 = 402 (12.8%) 777

Of course, you can prove anything you want with statistics (and I sometimes do  Wink) but the fact that the Trent 700 has outsold both the GEnx and GE90 over the past 36 months is quite remarkable.

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 841 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Did you work out all these nubmers yourself from the A and B O/D books? If so, impressive, and yeah very intersting.

Would like to see a similar set of info on the narrow bodys too ...  Smile


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3507 times:



Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 1):
Did you work out all these nubmers yourself from the A and B O/D books?

 yes  (Sad, isn't it...?)

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 1):
Would like to see a similar set of info on the narrow bodys too ...

I'd do it but my wife would divorce me.  Sad


User currently offlineCaryjack From United States of America, joined May 2007, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3475 times:



Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 1):
Would like to see a similar set of info on the narrow bodys too ...

On the Boeing side it looks like 2822 NBs were sold with 3644 CFM engines.  wink 

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
EA GP7000 = 176 (3.4%) A380

According to Google EA is a joint venture between GE and P&W to produce engines for large, long range airliners, the GP7000 being one. Do they make any other engines?
Thanks,
Cary  smile 


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Do you hvae the figures for deliveries also?

Anyway, thanks for doing the job finding the orders  Smile


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3446 times:



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 4):
Do you hvae the figures for deliveries also?

Yes. Check out my parallel thread somewhere below this one.


User currently offlineDan23 From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3444 times:



Quoting Caryjack (Reply 3):
On the Boeing side it looks like 2822 NBs were sold with 3644 CFM engines. wink

Minor point but should that not be 5644 engines? I didnt think B737's had 1.29 engines each  angel 


User currently offlineCaryjack From United States of America, joined May 2007, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3386 times:



Quoting Dan23 (Reply 6):
Minor point but should that not be 5644 engines? I didnt think B737's had 1.29 engines each

Thanks Dan, looks like I jumbled the numbers on my scratch pad.
Cary  embarrassed 


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3364 times:



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 4):
Do you hvae the figures for deliveries also?



Quoting PM (Reply 5):
Yes. Check out my parallel thread somewhere below this one.

To wit,

Widebody Deliveries In 2009 (by PM Jan 12 2010 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Except from a few 330 orders, is there any possibilities to see any return of PW into the widebody engine market (Yes I know they have half of the EA engines) or are they fully focused on the GTF for smaller jets?

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3293 times:



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 9):
is there any possibilities to see any return of PW into the widebody engine market

They just might pick up a small trickle of top-up orders on the 777-200ER (ANA haven't yet selected an engine for their recent order for 5) but, realistically, the 777 is all but over for PW. Similarly, they might get a little business on the occasional 767 orders but, again, it'll be crumbs. The 747 has gone and PW are running third on the A330. They aren't on the 787 or A350 so the short answer to your question is that it'll be a long time before we see PW in their own right playing any significant part in the widebody market.

For a long time to come it'll be GE and RR slugging it out.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10031 posts, RR: 96
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3293 times:
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Quoting PM (Thread starter):
But what is really fascinating (for me!) is the fact that whereas GE comfortably outsold RR in 2005 and 2006, RR have easily outsold GE in each of the past three years.

I would guess that is pretty much a consequence of the 787 delays, and attendant cancellations/order intake rate reduction.

Great piece of work, PM. Keep it up  thumbsup 

Rgds


User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 841 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3263 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 2):
yes (Sad, isn't it...?)

Nah, like I said above. It's impressive.  Smile

It also put's to shame those that are too lazy to even read a thread properly, before posting a duplicate question or comment.

Good to see RR doing well too. With the recent icing problems on the Trent 800’s and the GP7000 apparently performing better than the Trent 900s on the A380 I wondered if it would affect orders.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3230 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 10):
For a long time to come it'll be GE and RR slugging it out.

On many programmes these days GE and RR are pasengers as A and B slug it out.

If I buy a 748 or 77W , GE get the engine orders

If I choose the A350 or A346 (sadly on its last legs), RR get the engine orders

If I buy an A330, then GE is largely out of the battle; indeed on the A330F the CF6 isn't even availble, leaving RR and PW to fight it out

This leaves the 787 where GE leads RR, and the A380 where EA also seem to have an advantage over RR.

So, the days of 3 way battles on the 747, A330 and 777 are a thing of the past...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Fascinating. Congratulations. Bearing in mind your profession PM I would love to find fault, but it is well beyond me.  bigthumbsup 

On peripheral matters, as the GFC was beginning to descend, RR were said to be laying off staff by the thousand. Did that happen and what was the justification for layoffs when orders were still strong. I guess there might be an answer in
Widebody Deliveries In 2009
except the link does not seem to work. Have RR deliveries decreased following lay-offs or was this news more for the dreaded markets than for the real world? At a time of booming orders and stacks of engine development in train (getting the T1000 up to spec, improving the T700 and the T1000 and designing the TXWB) who did they lay off? Sales staff?!!!!

Turning to GE, what effects have the woes of GE money had on the rest of GE? They keep saying they have pulled out of this and the other dicey financial market, but when you look they still seem to be there and they still seem to have lost quite a bit of money.

It is indeed a battle between 747-8 +777 and 350XWB + 330 with the nearest to neutral ground being the 787. Will that mean that the 787 will be significantly advantaged by cheaper engines, or will RR be forced to keep TXWB prices down to T1000 levels to stay competitive, and how will anyone know?


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

There is something about the list of topics that can make it difficult to find what you would be interested in. I always wonder how many topics I miss due to not going through them with a fine tooth comb.

Can you post the deliveries in here since it clearly is of interest?

Especially trying to figure out what RR were on about in ?late 2008 with their spot of "right sizing". How I hate that term! But I would like to know what RR were doing. Could have been logical, but difficult to figure out what the logic would be from the outside. Of course there is a fair bit more to RR than "just" the aero engines.

[Edited 2010-01-15 21:01:11 by Diamond]

User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10031 posts, RR: 96
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3010 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
There is something about the list of topics that can make it difficult to find what you would be interested in. I always wonder how many topics I miss due to not going through them with a fine tooth comb.

Can you post the deliveries in here since it clearly is of interest?

motion seconded  thumbsup 

PM only ever posts things that are of interest.
An outstanding contributor to this forum IMO  highfive 

Rgds


User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

Oh, by the way, PM, great job!

Congratulations to RR and GE!

What a fall, for PW, in a quarter century! From the top to almost unexistant!

And what a contrast! I guess a few people at RR may still congratulate themselves for calling Sir Stanley out of retirement in 1971...

Quote:
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 18):
PM only ever posts things that are of interest.
An outstanding contributor to this forum IMO

Indeed.

[Edited 2010-01-15 10:04:37 by aircellist]

User currently offlineTofen From Sweden, joined Feb 2009, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

I think the most amazing number is the over 400 CF6 GE have sold. I know they are available on a lot of modes, but still, it's soon 40 years since the first CF6 took to the skies!

What planes are these engines hanging on? I mean, A300 is dead, the B747 is dead now and can't have had many orders the last years, the A330 seems to be a RR vs. PW battle and the B767 hasn't sold brilliantly lately.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2947 times:



Quoting Tofen (Reply 20):
I think the most amazing number is the over 400 CF6 GE have sold. I know they are available on a lot of modes, but still, it's soon 40 years since the first CF6 took to the skies!

The CF6-80 is a completely different engine from the TF39/CF6-6. They don't even share any parts.

It's sort of like how Porsche still sells an automobile branded "911," even though the original Porsche Model 911 has been out of production for years. The current "911s" are Model 997.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

Quoting Tofen (Reply 20):
I think the most amazing number is the over 400 CF6 GE have sold.

You're right. It is an amazing engine and just keeps selling.

Quoting Tofen (Reply 20):
What planes are these engines hanging on?



Quoting PM (Thread starter):
GE CF6 = 464 (9%) 747, 767, A300, A330

Going forward, just small numbers of 767s and A330s.

[Edited 2010-01-15 21:02:41 by Diamond]

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2844 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
Can you post the deliveries in here since it clearly is of interest?



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 18):
motion seconded thumbsup

I'm happy to do so.

Airbus and Boeing delivered 205 widebodies between them in 2009.

That compares with…

2008 : 182
2007 : 197
2006 : 186

I haven’t checked back beyond 2006 but I’m guessing that 205 is a record. That’s interesting given the prophesies at the start of the year.

The 205 comprised:

777 : 88
A330 : 76
767 : 13
A340 : 10
A380 : 10
747 : 8

In terms of engines…

115 had GE (56%)
76 had RR (37%)
10 had PW (5%)
4 had EA (2%)

GE delivered…
168 x GE90 (777)
70 x CF6 (747, 767, A330)
TOTAL : 238

RR delivered…
112 x Trent 700 (A330)
40 x Trent 500 (A340)
24 x Trent 900 (A380)
8 x Trent 800 (777)
TOTAL : 184

PW delivered…
28 x PW4000 (747, A330)

EA delivered…
16 x GP7000 (A380)

Over the four years 2006-2009…

Boeing delivered 396 widebodies (51% of the total) and Airbus delivered 374 (49%).
Boeing outdelivered Airbus in 2007 and 2009.
Airbus outdelivered Boeing in 2006 and 2008.
GE delivered 946 engines on widebodies (52%)
RR delivered 612 engines (34%)
PW delivered 188 engines (10%)
EA delivered 32 engines (2%)
CFM delivered 28 engines (2%)


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2674 times:



Quoting Caryjack (Reply 3):
According to Google EA is a joint venture between GE and P&W to produce engines for large, long range airliners, the GP7000 being one. Do they make any other engines?

Plan A was to produce engines for a stretched 747 but Boeing abandoned that project. (The 747-8 came later.) Plan B was to provide an engine for the A380 (which they do).

There has been talk of EA offering a GP7000 for the A350 but nothing much seems to have come of it.

One problem may be that while PW would be happy to drum up some more business, GE will be wary of anything that will compete with their own engines.

So, the short answer to your question, no, not yet.


User currently offlineRaggi From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 1001 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

To add to the praise, PM, great topic and a very good summary. Thanks a lot.

Quoting PM (Reply 10):
They just might pick up a small trickle of top-up orders on the 777-200ER (ANA haven't yet selected an engine for their recent order for 5) but, realistically, the 777 is all but over for PW.

This will be an interesting order. I looked at the Boeing Orders sheet, and indeed the 767s will get GE (bomshell...) but the 77Es are still undecided. I'm guessing Pratt will land it eventually, though NH might "do a JL" a go GE90-94B.



Stick & Rudder
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2446 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2658 times:



Quoting PM (Thread starter):
(Nobody wanted to join my last post Angry so I'll try another one.)

I was looking for your other one, I could not find it anymore...dunno why.  Confused

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
GE GEnx = 1164 (22.5%) 787, 747
RR Trent XWB = 998 (19.3%) A350



Quoting PM (Thread starter):
RR Trent 1000 = 344 (6.7%) 787

Too bad RR does not have as much traction on the B787. Seems the GENx has a 1% or so fuel burn advantage, again too bad.

Throw the A350 into the mix though, and RR has sold 1,342 engines in the mid-size widebody market.  thumbsup  Many frames to be fought over, going forward though.



oh boy!!!
25 PM : There is a reason but don't worry. I've merged it with this one. Mmm. GE have picked up most of the recent big orders - Etihad and AA come to mind. T
26 Imiakhtar : Just out of interest, do you know what the current Trent 800 order backlog is on the 777? Nice thread. thanks
27 Caryjack : From Boeing's site there are currently 7 more RR powered AA 772ERs on order than have been delivered. Assuming that all outstanding Trent 800 orders
28 Fruitbat : That's because a significant amount of the finance for 2009 deliveries was secured prior to the current financial problems....suspect that 2010 will
29 Post contains links Scbriml : It has now been restored. Widebody Deliveries In 2009 (by PM Jan 12 2010 in Civil Aviation)
30 Alitalia744 : Love seeing all those GE powered birds up in the sky!
31 PM : The order is for 777-200ERs but they reserved the right to convert some or all of these frames to 777-300ERs (with, of course, GE). My understanding
32 Alitalia744 : C'mon PM we all know you love RR.
33 PM : (I'm just trying not to get in any more trouble. )
34 Baroque : You could well be right and I had been wondering if I dare ask PM is he has stats on static engines as well, but chickened!! However, if you are righ
35 PM : Alas, no. All I can do in my simple way is to count the airframes ordered/built/delivered, confirm which engines they have, and multiply by 2, 3 or 4
36 Baroque : You mean you don't have a tour of all new power stations fitted with gas turbines planned. I am sure I can speak for some others by saying we are dis
37 Post contains links Andthensome : Hi guys, Lots of interest on deliveries so I thought I add the link below: http://www.myairlease.com/resources/orders_deliveries_prices This database
38 ORDnHKG : Don't think so, NH will keep its engines common. All NH's 777-200 200ER 300 are all using PW, (4074,4077,4090) only the 300ER use GE. GE90 for 777-20
39 Aircellist : Just wait until RR announces that Pepsi or Coke can be used as alternative fuels...
40 Fruitbat : Oi! That's a SECRET! So spare engines are excluded?? The shame!! PM - please continue with your analyses (analysises?) - they are fascinating and alw
41 Lightsaber : What to me will be *very* interesting is to see how the T700 does once 787 production 'gets legs.' I think there will be life for years to come. Nice
42 Thegeek : Couldn't they return if the 787 engine swapping plan works out? The days of designing planes around engines seems to be over too. For a while we've s
43 Aircellist : Long shot...
44 Lightsaber : Unlikely. It takes Billions to develop an engine today. The engine companies now demand a limited offering. The CF6 and PW4000 were switchable (with
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