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Geneva (GVA) -USA, Where Is OneWorld And Skyteam?  
User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

This may have been discussed before but I can't find it.

I am at a loss as to why Geneva-USA nonstop is "controlled" by StarAlliance. If both CO (EWR) and UA (IAD) can run flights on this decent to high yield route, why isn't it being challenged at least? On top of that, Swiss obviously runs GVA-JFK.

GVA-NYC has historically been a route of "wealth" (Swiss Banks, along with ZRH) and "politics" (UN). Both DL and AA are expanding JFK operations. I realize airlines cannot expand everywhere at once but wouldn't you think GVA is on top of the list for JFK?

Aside from the existing alliance connections (LHR, MAD, CDG, AMS), what am i missing? Why no nonstop?

[Edited 2010-01-15 09:58:35]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4207 times:

As for CO, part of their success in the GVA market is connectivity between the large pharma companies based in New Jersey and their operations in GVA and BSL.

Swiss dominates the JFK-GVA banking and UN traffic.


User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

Quoting Airzim (Reply 1):
As for CO, part of their success in the GVA market is connectivity between the large pharma companies based in New Jersey and their operations in GVA and BSL.

Good reason!
BSL is seemingly easier to reach via ZRH though, which AA and DL compete in.

Quoting Airzim (Reply 1):
Swiss dominates the JFK-GVA banking and UN traffic.

Delta should challenge this with a new interior B767-400. I thought American government employees were required to "fly American carriers" where possible. Is that still the case?

[Edited 2010-01-15 10:31:09]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineAviationMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4173 times:

In additon to CO (EWR) and UA (IAD) daily services, LX has a daily A330 flight to JFK and AC just started flights to YUL/YYZ . This IMO is more than sufficient for GVA, especially at current times, since the North American market is already well connected and served via ZRH.

If DL isn't even able to operate JFK-ZRH (B752) on a year round basis, then I fail to see how they'd make JFK-GVA work with LX and CO already sharing the market between them. Its easier for DL to connect passengers via CDG (AF) and AMS (KL).

In the end there are three factors:

- small Swiss market which is already being well served via ZRH
- Star Alliance has the GVA-North America market well covered = competiton for new entrants
- major European hubs located close by (CDG, AMS, LHR)


User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4129 times:



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 3):
If DL isn't even able to operate JFK-ZRH (B752) on a year round basis

This surprises me since the flight's LF was extremely high last summer. (don't know about yields but they can't be that low, for ZRH)

The fact DL goes to ATL daily from ZRH and not JFK tells me it is more about online connections within the USA. Obviously, DL offers more connections through ATL than JFK.

Maybe DL should consider GVA-ATL in that case...

What about AA?



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 3):
This IMO is more than sufficient for GVA

I understand "sufficiency". I am talking about taking on the competition. I don't like to see alliance monopolies. They can be challenged, the "will" just doesn't seem to be there at this time. Who will flinch first, DL or AA?

[Edited 2010-01-15 10:20:56]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4094 times:



Quoting Peanuts (Reply 4):
The fact DL goes to ATL daily from ZRH and not JFK tells me it is more about online connections within the USA. Obviously, DL offers more connections through ATL than JFK.

Maybe DL should consider GVA-ATL in that case...

Agreed. DL would be up against considerable competition on a JFK-GVA run, while a ATL-GVA service might just do well. Such a flight would give the GVA area pax easy access to Florida and Americans from all over the country would have increased opportunities (versus the current IAD/EWR/JFK options) to reach GVA than they do now.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 4):
What about AA?

Most of AA's new transatlantic flying has come from its "new" JFK hub. There, slots are a major issue, and I imagine there are bigger fish for AA to fry than GVA from there. I highly doubt AA (or anyone, for that matter) could make ORD-GVA work.

Going along with the Star Alliance dominance, perhaps US could be the next carrier to serve the city...could a 752 make it from PHL to GVA and back??



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineElmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4027 times:



Quoting Peanuts (Reply 4):
What about AA?

When the AA/SN codeshare ends, American won't even have codeshare access to GVA.

Back when LX was on its way to oneworld and American and Swiss had ATI, the two cooperated very closely in the US-Switzerland market. Since the end of the alliance, American dropped its daily DFW-ZRH route and down gauged the ZRH-JFK flight to a 757.

Geneva would be an ideal 757 destination from JFK for either AA or DL, however the market is dominated by Continental and Swiss.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 4):
Maybe DL should consider GVA-ATL in that case...

Traffic to Geneva is heavily focused around government, NGO and banking travel, which means that US-bound traffic is concentrated around New York and Washington DC, though as an anecdote, I remember flying from both Geneva and Zurich to Los Angeles, via New York, and saw quite a few passengers (like a dozen) from Geneva in Los Angeles in F, J and Y, this being 2003-2005 when AA and LX still cooperated.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 2):
Delta should challenge this with a new interior B767-400. I thought American government employees were required to "fly American carriers" where possible. Is that still the case?

Yes, but they can fly Continental out of Newark. Also, American employees of the United Nations (i.e. those working for the United Nations, not for Department of State representing the US) are not bound by those same rules, as they do not work for the United States.

United out of DC handles the bulk of the diplomatic and NGO traffic to Geneva.


User currently offlineAviationMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4021 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):
Such a flight would give the GVA area pax easy access to Florida and Americans from all over the country would have increased opportunities (versus the current IAD/EWR/JFK options) to reach GVA than they do now.

GVA pax can reach Florida easily via ZRH (MIA) and via FRA (MIA, MCO).

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 5):
I am talking about taking on the competition. I don't like to see alliance monopolies. They can be challenged, the "will" just doesn't seem to be there at this time. Who will flinch first, DL or AA?

In this current economic climate highly doubtful. One thing is taking on the competition in order to gain a piece of the market, and another is doing so profitably. Due to Star Alliance's dominating position in the Switzerland-USA/Canada market, I'm highly doubtful that DL or AA could make this work profitably in the long run.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 4):
What about AA?

AA along with OneWorld lost their chance when Swiss teamed up with LH and Star Alliance.


User currently offlineAviationMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4021 times:



Quoting Elmothehobo (Reply 7):
Since the end of the alliance, American dropped its daily DFW-ZRH route and down gauged the ZRH-JFK flight to a 757.

AA's ZRH-JFK flight is still operated by the B763.


User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

Is it a crazy idea for AF to fly GVA-JFK?  

When I think about it, this seems to make way more sense as compared to the "attempt" of AF on LHR-LAX, right?

AF could do very well from the french speaking, and bordering France GVA area. In fact, isn't GVA in France, partially?

[Edited 2010-01-15 11:11:44]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2224 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3946 times:



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 3):
- small Swiss market which is already being well served via ZRH
- Star Alliance has the GVA-North America market well covered = competiton for new entrants
- major European hubs located close by (CDG, AMS, LHR)

The swiss market makes up for it in two ways:

-A higher yield than other countries
-The average swiss citizen flies 3x more longhaul trips than the average neighbouring German or French citizen.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):
Agreed. DL would be up against considerable competition on a JFK-GVA run, while a ATL-GVA service might just do well.



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):
Most of AA's new transatlantic flying has come from its "new" JFK hub. There, slots are a major issue, and I imagine there are bigger fish for AA to fry than GVA from there. I highly doubt AA (or anyone, for that matter) could make ORD-GVA work.

Why not? ATL-GVA has no links whatsoever. ORD and GVA have strong links in commodity trading and a number of american companies have HQs that could easily be reached by connecting through ORD.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 8):
Due to Star Alliance's dominating position in the Switzerland-USA/Canada market, I'm highly doubtful that DL or AA could make this work profitably in the long run.

AA's JFK-ZRH flight is one of their most profitable flights ex-JFK and has done well recently. AA has pretty good passenger figures on a daily basis to GVA, and in a way it's somewhat surprising AA hasn't tried to get in the market again. I doubt Delta will ever try as their strategy has been to get into niche markets rather than head-on competition.


User currently offlineDartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 646 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3765 times:
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Quoting Peanuts (Reply 10):
In fact, isn't GVA in France, partially?

Yes, you can exit the airport straight into France.


I think the real reason is DL had SkyTeam service to GVA through CO all these years. Only since October and the switch to Star has DL not had alliance service, and fall of 2009 was no time to start adding routes to make up for that loss. Perhaps it comes with growth in 2010 or beyond, but even then, UA and CO's capacity can probably handle it.

I did fly EWR-GVA-EWR on CO in December and the LF was very high. About 100% going, and 100%+ going back as I got bumped my first try and then flew the next day also with 100% LF.

Also, having both UA and CO there is a nice synergy for them moving passengers between the two flights if need be. CO was doing that a lot thanks to their overbooking. You could tell that having them both in the same alliance has eased that operation and I bet made it more profitable -- another barrier for a new entrant.


User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 3):
In the end there are three factors:

- small Swiss market which is already being well served via ZRH
- Star Alliance has the GVA-North America market well covered = competiton for new entrants
- major European hubs located close by (CDG, AMS, LHR)

-Small market population wise, not money wise. In fact, Stars' dominance (LH, SR, ,CO, UA, SQ A380!, and a few others) is so apparent I would start to worry a bit if I was a Swiss citizen. Are the airfares competitive or do we see some monopolistic (StarAlliance) tendencies on long haul flights from Switzerland?

-I don't care if Star has the GVA-USA market "covered". I want competition. UA flies mutliple flights out of AMS to their US hubs. Skyteam's dominance hasn't stopped them.

-I understand OW and Sky have hubs nearby, so does Star, yet they see the need for GVA-USA nonstop.

I have a feeling GVA is on the table right now for either AA or DL. The timing may be off.

Quoting Dartland (Reply 12):
I think the real reason is DL had SkyTeam service to GVA through CO all these years.

Very believable. But I don't think a JV was in place on this route, right?

[Edited 2010-01-15 14:59:27]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3652 times:



Quoting Peanuts (Thread starter):
Aside from the existing alliance connections (LHR, MAD, CDG, AMS), what am i missing? Why no nonstop?

Geneva is still a relatively small market even with the UN and financial industry traffic. GVA's population is only about 450,000 and the catchment area including neighbouring parts of France, about 750,000. And much of the business traffic has dropped off with the financial crisis. LH/AF/BA/KL also offer good connecting service via their hubs. Should also keep in mind that GVA's North American nonstop carriers have doubled since a year ago with both UA (to IAD) and AC (to YUL/YYZ) starting service last summer.

Quoting Elmothehobo (Reply 7):
Geneva would be an ideal 757 destination from JFK for either AA or DL,

But that would be an uncompetitive product, especially once LX puts their new A330-300s on the GVA-JFK route with a much better J product than AA's 757.

Quoting Dartland (Reply 12):
Quoting Peanuts (Reply 10):
In fact, isn't GVA in France, partially?

Yes, you can exit the airport straight into France.

GVA is on the French border and almost surrounded by France on 3 sides but it's not "in" France. GVA's border with the rest of Switzerland is only about 5 km long. For many years there has been an agreement between France and Switzerland with a "customs road" between Ferney just across the border and the airport, so flights between GVA and France have always been handled as French domestic flights. When you arrive in GVA you have the choice of entering either Switzerland or France. BSL has the same type of arrangement except there the airport is physically in France while GVA airport is in Switzerland.


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2989 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3522 times:
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When does LX put the new A330 with the new C seats? The current seats are unflyable!


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3489 times:



Quoting VC10er (Reply 15):
When does LX put the new A330 with the new C seats? The current seats are unflyable!

LX schedules show the new A330-300 replacing the -200 on GVA-JFK-GVA effective January 30. I agree the old J seats on LX A332s are long overdue for retirement.


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2989 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3444 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):

Whew! thanks. I can fly Swiss again!



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2989 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3444 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):

Whew! thanks. I can fly Swiss again!



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

Anyone know how the loads are on the GVA-YUL/YYZ flights? I know they have it running 4x weekly right now...

User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3139 times:



Quoting Peanuts (Reply 13):
-I don't care if Star has the GVA-USA market "covered". I want competition. UA flies mutliple flights out of AMS to their US hubs. Skyteam's dominance hasn't stopped them.

But AMS-USA market is not as big as GVA-USA. If that were the case, we would see plenty of destinations from GVA and not only a handful of them.
GVA does not have SWISS (home carrier) based there like AMS and KL and yet no airline flies there from their respective hubs... that gives you a hint about the market.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 13):
-I understand OW and Sky have hubs nearby, so does Star, yet they see the need for GVA-USA nonstop.

You also have to think that if AA (only OW player in the USA) launches GVA-USA, BA's Executive club members won't be able to earn/use miles and tier points. That highly reduces traveler's appeal as some of them wouldn't like to take that flight and not get their perks. And bearing in mind the number of BA's GVA-LHR flights, there must be quite based at GVA.

About Skytem...

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 10):
Is it a crazy idea for AF to fly GVA-JFK?

It's not that crazy. If I remember correctly, AF along with LH, KE and JL own Terminal1 at JFK. One of their multiple CDG-JFK could do a W-pattern to fly to GVA. I think open skies also applies to Switzerland.
I could see AF taking over some JFK-Europe and DL doing some CDG-USA like NW-KLM did in the past, and this flight could be successful. Seeing AF at GVA is certainly not so weird as LAX-LHR


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3081 times:



Quoting Aisak (Reply 20):
You also have to think that if AA (only OW player in the USA) launches GVA-USA, BA's Executive club members won't be able to earn/use miles and tier points.

Unless something has changed recently, that restriction only applies on USA-LHR routes.

Quoting Aisak (Reply 20):
One of their multiple CDG-JFK could do a W-pattern to fly to GVA. I think open skies also applies to Switzerland.
I could see AF taking over some JFK-Europe and DL doing some CDG-USA like NW-KLM did in the past, and this flight could be successful. Seeing AF at GVA is certainly not so weird as LAX-LHR

While US-Switerland has been an open skies market for quite a few years, it's a separate agreement from the US-EU open skies agreement. As far as I know, an EU-based carrier cannot operate stand-alone (7th freedom) nonstop flights betweeen Switzerland and the US, and a Swiss carrier cannot operate stand-alone flights between EU points and the US. All-cargo flights are an exception where I believe 7th freedom is permitted.

Fifth freedom beyond rights are permitted, so for example an EU (or Swiss) carrier could operate GVA-LHR-LAX, but an EU carrier could not operate GVA-LAX nonstop, and a Swiss carrier could not operate a stand-alone flight LHR-LAX, unless it was a continuation of a flight originating in Switzerland.

If my interpretation of the current agreements is wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.


User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

Quoting Aisak (Reply 20):
But AMS-USA market is not as big as GVA-USA. If that were the case, we would see plenty of destinations from GVA and not only a handful of them.

You meant the other way around right? GVA not as big as AMS.

Quoting Aisak (Reply 20):
GVA does not have SWISS (home carrier) based there like AMS and KL and yet no airline flies there from their respective hubs... that gives you a hint about the market.

You've lost me here. Can you elaborate?
UA (ORD/IAD-AMS) has no hub in AMS. KL flies to both IAD and ORD from AMS. They compete for O/D passengers as well as, to a smaller degree, connecting passengers.

If CO can fly EWR-GVA, drops out of SkyTeam and UA joins them as an alliance carrier and adds IAD-GVA, why can't AA/BA/DL/AF/KL respond?

[Edited 2010-01-16 18:09:36]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3008 times:



Quoting Aisak (Reply 20):
and yet no airline flies there from their respective hubs... that gives you a hint about the market.

If "there" is referring to GVA, I don't understand what you mean. UA operates IAD-GVA. IAD is UA"s major transatlantic hub. The same for CO EWR-GVA. For AC, YYZ is their major hub and YUL a secondary hub, and they operate YYZ-YUL-GVA. The other 40 or so airlines that serve GVA all serve it from their hubs.


User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2747 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Unless something has changed recently, that restriction only applies on USA-LHR routes

It's for AA members on USA BA's flights and BA members on all AA TATL flights. I also think it's unfair as CDG-DFW or BCN-JFK does not compete head to head with BA.

ups.. Minor update. I seems BA has risen this restriction and it also affects AA's flights to India:

Quote:
British Airways Executive Club members will not earn or redeem miles or earn Tier Points on American Airlines operated transatlantic flights including services to India. BA Miles and Tier Points may be earned though miles may not be redeemed on all British Airways codeshare services operated by American Airlines when the booking is made under the BA code.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Fifth freedom beyond rights are permitted, so for example an EU (or Swiss) carrier could operate GVA-LHR-LAX, but an EU carrier could not operate GVA-LAX nonstop, and a Swiss carrier could not operate a stand-alone flight LHR-LAX, unless it was a continuation of a flight originating in Switzerland.

So AF will be allowed to link one of their many CDG-GVA to JFK with a change of equipment in GVA. mmmmmm  scratchchin 


25 BrouAviation : A feeding airline at GVA? It's bigger, you mean? UA has a lot of feeding flights at AMS coming from MUC, FRA, HAM, ARN, CPH, and so forth.
26 Peanuts : This really illustrates the "strength" of StarAlliance at certain Non-Hub airports. Incredible. Which makes me think. Does SkyTeam or OW have advanta
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