Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Danish Low Moral Airline Steals Cheap Tickets  
User currently offlineCO38 From Norway, joined May 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12624 times:

Greetings fellow a.net'ers!

I came across an article from a Norwegian newspaper describing one of the business tactics of the Danish Low Cost/Moral airline "Cimber Sterling".


http://e24.no/selskap/NAS/article3472079.ece

Sorry the article is in Norwegian , but what it basically says is:

Norwegian (DY) announced they were sellling airline tickets as cheap as 1 Krone ($0.2) for domestic flights in Denmark. This was a campain to launch its new route network in the country last weekend.
But on Monday almost all the 1 Krone tickets (About 3000 of them) were sold. And on the first flight with these cheap tickets, there were 118(!!!) No-Shows.

According to DY most of those tickets were bought by credit card registered to people in the administration and the management in Cimber Sterling.

The article also tells that fake names such as Anders And (The Danish name for Donald Duck) was one of the Now Shows

-By doing this Cimber Sterling is robbing the Danish travelling public of cheap fares.
-How common is it that operators buy up an competitors cheapest tickets.?
-This must be one of the "Lowest" tactics Ive ever heard of.
-This shows how Cimber Sterling is struggeling to survive. And in my view this is extremely unproffessional and childish.

Of course, Cimber Sterlings president Jacob Krogsgaard denies they have anything to do with the No-Shows

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFn1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12566 times:

At least they got what they wanted: publicity. Not only that an airline offers cheap tickets (many airlines are doing this) they are also in the news for a much bigger story. Wow!

Is it certain or just an assumption that the buyers were from the other airline?



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlineWexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12558 times:

If this is true then airlines have reached a new low. This sort of dog tactics is just petty and lets hope it doesnt catch on more.


Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 12478 times:



Quoting Fn1001 (Reply 1):
Is it certain or just an assumption that the buyers were from the other airline?

Yes, but the number of tickets bought by those was 650 not 3000

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineCO38 From Norway, joined May 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12210 times:



Quoting Fn1001 (Reply 1):
Is it certain or just an assumption that the buyers were from the other airline?

DY say they have traced some of the orders to Cimber Sterling computers.
Cimber Sterlings Finance Director have personnally ordered 54 tickets and the Director of the company have now admitted that some of his emplyees have bought excessive amount of tickets for the purpose of distrupting the DY campain.

Cimber will now investigate the matter.
Mean time DY will cancel bookings for Austin Powers and Donald Duck&Co and possibly put out more 1 Krone tickets on the market.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9437 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12061 times:

When I read "Danish Low Moral Arline" I had immediately something else in my mind than stealing low fare tickets.  Wink

Nice term, I like that. Norwegian should take that sporty and use it for the ad campaign. As to Sterling Cimber, such tactics sometimes fall back on the fcreators. Although, I must admit booking people under names like Anders Ant makes me smile.

Coming back to low morale, for those who don'tknow, the original Sterling was founded by a Danish Pastor by the name of Krogager. I hope they did not mis-use his name.


 Cool



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7571 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11887 times:

If you offered 100 brand new cars for $1,000 and they were snapped up by another car dealer and sold by him at near recommended price would you have a justifiable complaint? I do not think so.

If you make a very low price offer on airline tickets and a large number are purchased but not used by a competitor would you have a justifiable complaint? Well from reading this thread you might think so. But clearly if you made such an offer and were not prepared to sell those tickets to specific people at 1 Kr (US 19c) it would be discriiminatory and therefore possibly illegal.

So clearly you do need to think very carefully before making such an offer and not wait and then cry once you have spilt your milk. Of course this is not to say that DY did not think this through. They could have been looking in this direction. The publicity they are getting is very good. And they have received 1 Kr for each ticket for carrying nothing. This must give better fuel economy then selling the tickets and having to fly the passengers and their baggage for that same 1 Kr.


User currently offlineFly-K From Germany, joined May 2000, 3154 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11839 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

And in the end even DY gained because of not having to fly those people who were no-shows, thus saving costs.


Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
User currently offlineWexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11793 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
If you offered 100 brand new cars for $1,000 and they were snapped up by another car dealer and sold by him at near recommended price would you have a justifiable complaint? I do not think so.

If you make a very low price offer on airline tickets and a large number are purchased but not used by a competitor would you have a justifiable complaint? Well from reading this thread you might think so. But clearly if you made such an offer and were not prepared to sell those tickets to specific people at 1 Kr (US 19c) it would be discriiminatory and therefore possibly illegal.

So clearly you do need to think very carefully before making such an offer and not wait and then cry once you have spilt your milk. Of course this is not to say that DY did not think this through. They could have been looking in this direction. The publicity they are getting is very good. And they have received 1 Kr for each ticket for carrying nothing. This must give better fuel economy then selling the tickets and having to fly the passengers and their baggage for that same 1 Kr.

I do take your point and there is a certain validity in it. The point here of offering the fares was more a marketing and advertising plan rather than anything else, and I do accept that they still did get their advertising. The point here is moreso about one airline trying to ruin another airlines advertising. It was a low blow in my opinion. The DY would clearly rather to have the passengers receive the benefit of the low fares, enjoy the flight and want to fly again. Also they missed out on some anciliary revenues here.

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 7):
And in the end even DY gained because of not having to fly those people who were no-shows, thus saving costs.

Same as above, flying a near empty plane makes money for noone. The point of these fares was not to make a huge amount of money from the flights anyway but was to market and advertise the airline and the routes.



Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlineSpeedyGonzales From Norway, joined Sep 2007, 732 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11675 times:



Quoting CO38 (Thread starter):
This shows how Cimber Sterling is struggeling to survive.

Any airlines who uses a horned "viking" helmet as logo doesn't deserve survival...



Las Malvinas son Argentinas
User currently offlineDahlgardo From Denmark, joined Sep 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11505 times:

Fortunately this bad taste stunt by Cimber has backfired right into their face again.
Norwegian has gained a lot of good publicity, and thier prime competitor on the domestic routes, Cimber, has suffered a lot of bad publicity. Good for Norwegian.

It's not my impression, that the public opinion here in DK-land is on Cimbers site either.
There has been a lot of bad stories about Cimber the last few months, and the company's introduction to the Copenhagen Stock Exchange did not go very well.

Norwegian has a strong brand in Denmark, and offers a very good and competitive product.
I wouldn't hesitate recommending flying with Norwegian to anyone.

Quoting SpeedyGonzales (Reply 9):
Any airlines who uses a horned "viking" helmet as logo doesn't deserve survival...

Actually, "Cimber" is name of an ancient Danish war-tribe that predates the vikings by almost a 1000 years. So the helmet has nothing to do with the vikings.

br
Jakob
in Copenhagen

[Edited 2010-01-19 09:20:42]


Nothing to say
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11480 times:

I know that AA has overbooked DL flights, in the past. They were caught but settled with DL.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9967 times:

Frankly, both Norwegian and Cimber are extremely stupid in this situation:

Norwegian for allowing people to buy tickets in bulk for inaugural flights.

Cimber for doing this stunt without being prepared to handle the publicity fallout.

And in the end from economic point of view has it changed anything? No! Both companies are in the same competitive (and financial) position they were before.


User currently offlineQ120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9690 times:



Quoting CO38 (Thread starter):
-By doing this Cimber Sterling is robbing the Danish travelling public of cheap fares.
-How common is it that operators buy up an competitors cheapest tickets.?
-This must be one of the "Lowest" tactics Ive ever heard of.
-This shows how Cimber Sterling is struggeling to survive. And in my view this is extremely unproffessional and childish.

its more like...

- Usually airlines price match ..
- Lowest? Its a dog eat dog industry
- Unprofessional? its a very .. very good tactic

but it ends up hurting the customer in the long run, something the traveling public is used to by now. That price is very unrealistic and does a lot of damage to their own company and other companies who can use those numbers to actually get some revenue during these hard times. It almost sounds like JetsGo and Air Canada when they used to battle it out.



However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2412 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9645 times:



Quoting CO38 (Thread starter):
According to DY most of those tickets were bought by credit card registered to people in the administration and the management in Cimber Sterling.

This is not true. It has nothing to do with the administration, but other employees in Cimber Sterling. The administration didn't know about this before it was announced in the press. I know because I know people in the administration in Cimber Sterling.


User currently offlineSAS-A321 From Denmark, joined Mar 2002, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9025 times:

Stop whining CO38! I bet that you are a DY pilot, who most likely paid for your own typerating! It is funny seeing DY pilots whine all the time, when they face a challenge.
DY has just as low a moral selling tickets for 1kr... everyone here knows that you cannot operate a route where the price for a ticket excl. taxes is 0.19$...
I only see it as a fun happening, that the very loyal employees of Cimber Sterling bought many tickets, when DY starts with such a dirty trick of dumping prices.



It's Scandinavian
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8944 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Nice term, I like that. Norwegian should take that sporty and use it for the ad campaign.

I was gonna say, something like: "So cheap, even our competitors are buying tickets on our flights..."

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineWexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8862 times:



Quoting SAS-A321 (Reply 15):
DY has just as low a moral selling tickets for 1kr... everyone here knows that you cannot operate a route where the price for a ticket excl. taxes is 0.19$...

The point is not to operate the route at that price but to advertise it, launch it and create an awareness of it.

Quoting Doona (Reply 16):
"So cheap, even our competitors are buying tickets on our flights..."

I LOVE it!!! How brilliant would it be if they used that!!



Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlineCO38 From Norway, joined May 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8841 times:



Quoting SAS-A321 (Reply 15):
Stop whining CO38! I bet that you are a DY pilot, who most likely paid for your own typerating! It is funny seeing DY pilots whine all the time, when they face a challenge.
DY has just as low a moral selling tickets for 1kr... everyone here knows that you cannot operate a route where the price for a ticket excl. taxes is 0.19$...
I only see it as a fun happening, that the very loyal employees of Cimber Sterling bought many tickets, when DY starts with such a dirty trick of dumping prices.

Wow, not sure where to begin to respond to that reply but Ill give it s shot:

First; No, I dont work for DY. I fly for another rather successful Norwegian operator who paid my rating for me.
And so what if I had paid my own rating, how does that matter to this discussion?

Second: I dont think DY is displaying low moral with having a sales campain selling ticket to 1 Krone. Of course they dont expect to make money on those flights. But since they are launching a new product in Denmark this is a way to tempt new customers to fly with them so hopefulley they will return.
I dont think DY is gonna sell tickets in Denmark for 1 Krone for the sole reason to put Cimber out of business only to raise the prices when Cimber had gone bankrupt.
Now THAT I agree would be a dirty trick.

But I hope you realize its a huge difference between a sales campain and squeezing a competitor to go bankrupt.


User currently offlineBps3458 From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8723 times:



Quoting Doona (Reply 16):
I was gonna say, something like: "So cheap, even our competitors are buying tickets on our flights..."

Hey Mats,

love your idea. Had something similar in mind like "Our fares and services are sooo good, even our competitors prefer to fly with us !!!!".

Cheers from Brisbane,

Peter


User currently offlineHeeBeeGB From Finland, joined Sep 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8633 times:



Quoting Bps3458 (Reply 19):
"Our fares and services are sooo good, even our competitors prefer to fly with us !!!!".

Or not, as there were 118 no shows.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19794 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8437 times:



Quoting HeeBeeGB (Reply 20):

Or not, as there were 118 no shows.

Ouch. Here's the thing, neither company gained nor lost. DY flew empty planes for the same price as they would have flown the full planes, and not only that, but they probably collected a few stand-by fares, so if anyone came out ahead, it was DY by a few thousand.


User currently offlineWexfordflyer From Ireland, joined Jun 2009, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8366 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Ouch. Here's the thing, neither company gained nor lost. DY flew empty planes for the same price as they would have flown the full planes, and not only that, but they probably collected a few stand-by fares, so if anyone came out ahead, it was DY by a few thousand.

I see what you are saying but it is missing the point. The point is Cimber trying to sabotage DY's marketing plans. Granted in the end is seems it may have backfired on Cimber and DY have gotten even more advertising. Doesn't change the fact that what Cimber tried was a really low blow.



Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5654 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8319 times:



Quoting CO38 (Thread starter):
The article also tells that fake names

I know for a fact that's illegal in the US.

Quoting CO38 (Thread starter):
there were 118(!!!) No-Shows.

Wow. If only I could get that kind of no-show rate on a PHL flight....

Quoting CO38 (Thread starter):
How common is it that operators buy up an competitors cheapest tickets.?

Rare. The buyer doesn't gain anything by it, and the competitor actually makes more money off of it.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8054 times:

This will be an interesting discussion at work as I now work for a Danish company, I won't name.


EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
25 Prebennorholm : The situation always looks a little different the nearer you come to the focal point. We are talking about the CPH - KRP shuttle, a 150 miles feeder r
26 Wexfordflyer : I accept all your point and perhaps Norwegians service here is not good and cimber are serving it well. I dont think anyone is suggesting Cimber shou
27 SkyguyB727 : According to the book "Splash of Colors," this type of thing happened at Braniff International Airways in 1982. BN flights were showing full. At depar
28 PanHAM : only if you really board under the fake name. I just imagine a final boarding call, "would the Duck family, Donald, Daisy, Dewey, Huey and Louie go i
29 Maverick623 : I should have been more specific. Booking a seat, under a false name and with false pretenses of actually boarding, is against the contract of carria
30 BrouAviation : Huh? You can restrict what you like, when offering a product. So it would be perfectly legal to say buying in bulk is not allowed, and employees of o
31 PanHAM : yes, but you would have to prove that the airline did that. In this case, the bookings have been made by employees of the airline. Unless the FTC fin
32 Maverick623 : Except there is documentation of corporate cards being used multiple times to purchase tickets under false names and pretenses. Case law has establis
33 PanHAM : well, in liberal Denmark or other European countries, it would be unlikeley that they occupy valuable time of judges for such cases. In the US, if I
34 AirPacific747 : Actually, the tickets were indeed booked in names like Donald Duck, Batman, etc haha
35 Il75 : Well, by offering those 1 krone tickets Norwegian was going for a kill. You must understand that they were taking the burden of loosing money in the s
36 EBGflyer : Low business ethics, yes! But Norwegian put cheap seats on the market for everyone to buy...also people with a low moral standard. What happened here
37 PanHAM : well, the no show fee usually is that the ticket price is not refunded. This here was a deliberate case but imagine you are in traffic and don't make
38 AirPacific747 : Can't be. Otherwise you could argue that the vast majority of airlines uses this policy. When have you ever been able to get a refund if you didn't s
39 PanHAM : I think you mis-understood my reply. EBGflyer meant a no show fee on top of the non-refundable ticket cost. At least that is what i understood from h
40 AirPacific747 : Yes sorry, I did misunderstand it then.. And well yeah they don't have a loss that way as the plane will be a little lighter, therefore saving some f
41 CXfirst : I don't know, would some of the travelling DY pax buy onboard goods such as food and drink. That would have added some to the revenue... -CXfirst
42 Wexfordflyer : HAHA!! I would pay money to hear that Very true, I do accept that. It is a risk that unfortunately goes with these. I guess I would just hope that ot
43 PanHAM : on a 20 minute flight? Gate to gate scheduled for the ATR is 50 minutes, for a 738 estimate 40 of which not much more than 20 are spend in the air.
44 SASlover : Well. I really hope that Cimber hold the fortress of Karup, cause i am affraid that, if Cimber drops the Karup - Copenhagen route, it will be a disast
45 SASlover : Oh yeah. And i think it's pretty low moral, for an airline that is 4 times bigger than Cimber Air and got alot of Norwegian money, to start a competet
46 Dahlgardo : How exactly is that not fair ? It was a limited amount of tickets for a limited amount of days. DY thought this was the best way of advertising their
47 Prebennorholm : I agree. The situation is that Norwegian managed to kill Sterling Airlines just over a year ago. It is of course irritating for Norwegian that Cimber
48 Someone83 : Except for the fact that this turned out at rather bad PR for both parties, included Cimber, this was a genius move and I'm simply loving it. Norwegia
49 CXfirst : Wasn't aware of that. But still, I'm sure DY would rather have their flights full, rather than 183 no-shows, but the same income from tickets bought.
50 Ridgid727 : What an ingenious way to rain on someones parade. Congrats to Cimber. Next time, if in the future they do this, I hope they use legitimate names.. Not
51 Dahlgardo : I was not aware there was legistation that demanded KRP to be served "the proper way". Like it or not, we're living in a free market where free compe
52 CO38 : Thats what they (I would say more than likely) did on tuesday and wednesday after the news broke. DY still have an excessive amount of No Shows but t
53 Vfw614 : It is not exactly a new idea - Stelios did this sometimes in the early days of Easyjet, IIRC mainly on Go's inaugural flights. With the difference tha
54 EBGflyer : Correct, that's what I meant. This is a practice they use in Asia. I don't legally see a problem with it as long as it is clearly pointed out in the
55 PanHAM : Like I said, i never fly low cost and I would not accept such a charge unless I could insure myself against that risk. If I miss a flight, the nonref
56 Prebennorholm : Dear Jacob, nothing wrong with what you write. The difference is that my business and lifestyle is somewhat dependent upon a proper CHP-KRP shuttle,
57 AirPacific747 : Dear Preben, You can always take the train with DSB
58 Dahlgardo : And I guess that is the core issue here. But that doesn't make DY's strategy towards QI morally bad. It's a free market, and DY made a perfectly legi
59 Ridgid727 : Would not be too difficult to get a marketing agency in someplace like India, or the Phillippines to take care of the bookings for you, and of course
60 Post contains links AirPacific747 : For Preben, and anyone else interested in supporting Cimber Sterling against Norwegian Air Shuttle and their unfair competitive advantages (money from
61 Post contains links Mortyman : Cimber Sterling pilot Tommy Eriksen admits today that he was the one that started it all. He alone bought 458 tickets. The amount of seats in 3 full 7
62 Mayor : This same thing happened in the same time frame with AA overbooking DL flights. The AA agent was at a travel agency in Portland, Oregon doing it.
63 Thomas_Jaeger : Do you have an example of an airline with a fee like that? Have never heard this before and travel on LCCs in Asia quite often. I would really be int
64 Post contains links LN-KGL : I never stop wondering how little some of you Danes know about the Norwegian geography. Norway has a number STOLports, airports with short runways (80
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Dubai Low Cost Airline Branded FlyDubai posted Wed Jun 25 2008 22:52:13 by KissK
Dubai’s Low Cost Airline Named "FlyDubai" posted Wed Jun 25 2008 05:46:23 by Haan
Ryanair: The Low Cost Airline? I Dont Think So posted Thu May 8 2008 04:32:37 by NEMA
Third Low Cost Airline To Belgrade (BEG) posted Tue Jan 15 2008 17:30:06 by Luka
Low Cost Airline To Be Established In Jamaica? posted Thu Nov 22 2007 07:51:04 by A388
GOL's Low Cost Airline VRG Signs Delta Air Lines A posted Wed Nov 14 2007 10:40:23 by JFK787NYC
Jetblue Named World's Best Low Cost Airline posted Fri Apr 20 2007 06:08:02 by Crogalski
Does Brand Loyalty Apply In The Low-cost Airline? posted Tue Mar 20 2007 17:38:31 by Kwexclusive
Cheap Tickets On NW: Buy? posted Mon Aug 21 2006 06:30:00 by ETStar
Sama Airways-New Low Cost Airline From KSA posted Fri Jul 28 2006 01:41:21 by Detroiter