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JAL Files For Bankruptcy Today Jan 19  
User currently offlineRobbie86 From Sweden, joined May 2006, 537 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15756 times:

The Japanese minister if transportation, Seiji Maehara, has called to a press conference due to Japan Airlines filing for protection against bankruptcy.

In September 2009 JL's debts were up to 1500 billion Yen.

With this protection JL is expected to go through a government sponsored reconstruction laying of 15.000 employees and decrease their fleet.

They are however still expected to keep flying.


Next flights: ARN-LHR-IAD on BA 319/VS343 EWR-LHR-ARN on VS346/BA319
129 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2961 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15740 times:

It's finally official.
There are multiple threads on this subject though.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8571 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15668 times:

Since it is official, it probably needs the new thread.

JAL deserves some new leadership. It will be interesting to see which fleet they dump.


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15668 times:

Any information about long haul routes to be cut?
Is the plan of axing all long haul operation still on the cards?


User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3282 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15591 times:

From BBC Business News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8466997.stm



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15543 times:

And again the taxpayers pay the bill. Just like they did when banks started to collapse...

User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15503 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Hirnie (Reply 5):
And again the taxpayers pay the bill.

Capitalism and the free market when it suits them, protectionism when it doesn't! The USA, the EU, Japan... they all do it.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15489 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 2):
It will be interesting to see which fleet they dump.

It is rumored that DL has shown interest in the 16 MD 90. I also believe the last remaining MD 80s will leave the fleet in favor of an all 737 narrow body fleet (how boring from an enthusiast point of view  Sad )
I also believe some 747s will be axed not sure about the A300s though......



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15155 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
It is rumored that DL has shown interest in the 16 MD 90. I also believe the last remaining MD 80s will leave the fleet in favor of an all 737 narrow body fleet (how boring from an enthusiast point of view

WRAPUP 1-Restructuring looms as clock ticks on JAL bankruptcy

Quote:
JAL's restructuring plan also calls for increasing the fuel efficiency of its fleet, replacing 53 bigger jets with 33 small jets and 17 regional ones.

Then in the next section Yasuhiro Matsumoto, credit analyst at Shinsei Securities, says...

Quote:
"I think a revival of JAL will be good for manufacturers such as Mitsubishi Heavy industries which is developing new regional jets,"

MRJ here we go



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15127 times:



Quoting Hirnie (Reply 3):
Any information about long haul routes to be cut?
Is the plan of axing all long haul operation still on the cards?

14 International and 17 domestic routes should be cut.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3217 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 14938 times:

God why is the Japanese government doing this?

Seriously JAL may be a symbol of national pride, just as say Pan Am was... but It's been badly managed and everybody knows it. The thing is though, Japan doesn't need JAL. It's got a perfectly Capable ANA that should be encouraged to step up to the plate, and... slots should be put aside for any new/other airlines that may wish to expand. Two US carriers, for example already have hubs there... why not get encourage some kind of joint venture between japanese companies and them, reserving some of the slots for carriers other then ANA?

Next, is it fair on ANA? ANA has been responsible. It'd adapted it's ways...it hasn't been overly agressive and its not on the verge of going broke. Is it really fair that ANA has to compete with a company that loses money and the tax payer foots the bill? Surely Japan has more pressing concerns that its tax revenue could be spent on?


User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4271 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 14910 times:



Quoting Hirnie (Reply 3):
Any information about long haul routes to be cut?



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 9):
14 International and 17 domestic routes should be cut.

A statement about route network will be made not earlier then June 2010, as a next step in the revival plan. We can now only guess.
Also, statements regarding alliance strategy are not made, and will also be announced in June 2010 earliest.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10751 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 14837 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
I also believe some 747s will be axed not sure about the A300s though......

Ten 744s will be retired from the fleet following international route cuts. Transaero will likely take some 744s as they´ll add 7 to the fleet over the next two years.
It is still to be announced which aircraft will be axed because of domestic and regional route cuts. As JAL has a number of aging 767s and as they are retiring some already now one can be sure some others will be dumped. Maybe some early 772s/773s have to go too. JAL needs money now, it doesnt help to park rundown 20 year-old 767s nobody else wants, they need to sell aicraft which find takers.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10751 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 14814 times:

Very sad too read this on flightglobal. Imho a mistake as it wont generate much money quick, just ruin the prices further:

“It will switch from "low-efficiency large aircraft to high-efficiency small aircraft" and restructure and reconsolidate low-demand routes, adds JAL. Reports indicate that the airline will retire its 37 Boeing 747-400s."


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12592 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 14531 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 10):
God why is the Japanese government doing this?

For the same reason EU governments own large chunks of Airbus and the US government owns 75% of GM: pride and short-sightedness and political expediency.

Quoting NA (Reply 12):
JAL needs money now, it doesnt help to park rundown 20 year-old 767s nobody else wants, they need to sell aicraft which find takers.

I disagree. They're getting a government bailout so they have the cash they need. What they have to do is emerge as an efficient airline, so what they have to do is get rid of inefficient aircraft and especially inefficient bureaucracy and work practices.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10751 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 14425 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
They're getting a government bailout so they have the cash they need. What they have to do is emerge as an efficient airline, so what they have to do is get rid of inefficient aircraft and especially inefficient bureaucracy and work practices.

Ok then. But according to Boeing the seatmile cost on a 744, when filled, is lower than on a 772 or 767. So on some routes the 744 will still be the more efficient aircraft.


User currently offlineRobbie86 From Sweden, joined May 2006, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14407 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
For the same reason EU governments own large chunks of Airbus and the US government owns 75% of GM: pride and short-sightedness and political expediency.

The Japanese government must but a lot of pride in JL as this is the fourth time they're doing this.



Next flights: ARN-LHR-IAD on BA 319/VS343 EWR-LHR-ARN on VS346/BA319
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14363 times:



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 11):
A statement about route network will be made not earlier then June 2010, as a next step in the revival plan. We can now only guess.

I suppose we may assume that, if JAL enters SkyTeam, the NRT-AMS-NRT flight will remain in place?



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14193 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 13):
Reports indicate that the airline will retire its 37 Boeing 747-400s."

Not good news for the 747-8F.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10751 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14169 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):
Not good news for the 747-8F.

Certainly not. Many of those JAL 744s will become freighters. Evergreen, Southern Air, Kalitta, Atlas Air, here we come - at bargain prices!

JAL will need efficient large aircraft in the future to be competitive. Hello A380.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8165 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14169 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 15):
But according to Boeing the seatmile cost on a 744, when filled, is lower than on a 772 or 767. So on some routes the 744 will still be the more efficient aircraft.

Now that they are officially in bankruptcy and will downsize everything from top to bottom, I doubt many customers will remain loyal. They'll be lucky to be able to fill anything 777-size, let alone 744s.

Quoting Robbie86 (Reply 16):
The Japanese government must but a lot of pride in JL as this is the fourth time they're doing this.

Understatement of the thread so far.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 10):
Next, is it fair on ANA? ANA has been responsible. It'd adapted it's ways...it hasn't been overly agressive and its not on the verge of going broke. Is it really fair that ANA has to compete with a company that loses money and the tax payer foots the bill? Surely Japan has more pressing concerns that its tax revenue could be spent on?

Of course it's unfair to ANA. Privately they're livid about it but won't say so publicly for fear of disturbing harmony now that the government has made the decision.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13300 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 19):
Hello A380.

You aren´t serious, are you?



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineBeagleboys From Italy, joined Jun 2006, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12975 times:

That is in their main page:
JAL filed for bankrupcy

http://www.jal.co.jp/en/other/info2010_0119.html

[Edited 2010-01-19 07:22:39]


Nervous? Yes. First Times? No, I've been nervous lots of times. -Airplane!
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5065 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12817 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 13):
“It will switch from "low-efficiency large aircraft to high-efficiency small aircraft" and restructure and reconsolidate low-demand routes, adds JAL. Reports indicate that the airline will retire its 37 Boeing 747-400s."

Am I greedy, or am I just going to be sad not to see the beautiful paint job on the sweet looking 747-400?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 20):
Now that they are officially in bankruptcy and will downsize everything from top to bottom, I doubt many customers will remain loyal. They'll be lucky to be able to fill anything 777-size, let alone 744s.

I think your underestimating the loyalty of a customer. When US Airways, United, and Delta were in bankruptcy... I remained loyal, and so did so many others. Hence, that all three are still here.

Have some faith!



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineIliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12622 times:

Delta and SkyTeam Issue Statement of Support for Japan Airlines

"Delta and SkyTeam fully support Japan Airlines and stand ready to provide assistance and support in any way possible. Delta fully expects that JAL, with the support of ETIC, will be successful in its restructuring and return the airline to a position of prominence. Delta went through a similar restructuring process, and as a result emerged in 2007 as one of the most financially sound and the world's largest airline."


How long till an announcement of a partnership between JL and DL?



delta.com
25 DLPMMM : Source? I would be very surprised if they wait until June to announce an alliance decision. I fully expect a decision in the next few weeks and an ap
26 Aaron747 : Japanese people tend to be a little more finicky when things they depend on have disappointed them. This is a country where restaurant chains die whe
27 Transpac787 : Considering how the 773ER is a much more popular 744 replacement than the A380 and JL has an existing fleet of 773ER, what makes you think there is e
28 Aeolus : That's great. I just read he news in my homepage and it's so sad, but imminient though... with the axing of MEX, it was just the start of the snowbal
29 Aaron747 : I really wish all this A380 talk will stop. Neither Japanese carrier will ever order the A380 - it's just not in the cards - this country's airline ma
30 Huaiwei : "Ever" is a pretty strong word. I am not insisting that JL will buy them now, but buying the A380 doesn't mean you automatically increase capacity. I
31 Aaron747 : Their reorganization plan calls for becoming an entirely twin engine fleet. Given the market dynamics currently at work and fuel prices for the fores
32 Stitch : Well they aren't a current 747-8F customer and they only ordered two 747-400Fs new from Boeing, so I don't think JL would have been a future 747-8F c
33 Airbuseric : True. LHR is cut heavily over last years. 3 passenger flights left (NGO, KIX and one of 2 NRT flights), plus all their cargo ops dissappeared to AMS.
34 Ogre727 : I am flying them in a couple weeks... NRT-HKG.... hope my flight doesn´t get cancelled or anything like that...
35 WorldTraveler : Normally, alliance hub to hub flights are the strongest flights for an airline. JL will have a cost problem that they need to correct but if they can
36 Viscount724 : But to fill a 744 you have to reduce the fares, meaning lower yield. That's exactly why JL has been replacing 744s with 772s on many routes. They've
37 Dank : I'm assuming that Keesje is implying that because there are going to be a significant number of 744s on the market, they will be snapped up as freigh
38 Stitch : Well the Pax-to-Freight 747-400s were the first models sent to the desert when the cargo market imploded as their operating economics and revenue gen
39 Dank : Exactly, I agree. Hence my comment that I doubted it would have a significant impact. Just that that was my impression about what Keesje was saying (
40 DLPMMM : On this point I would agree with you, and you are the first I have seen to point this problem with the JL association for BA. LHR is poorly located h
41 Cubsrule : Better, but I don't know how much. What JL needs for Europe is a LHR or a CDG sized hub and local market in a location like KBP or HEL. Obviously, th
42 Jc2354 : I hate to even think about it, but, does anyone see JAL turning into the US Airways of the Pacific? Jack
43 Aaron747 : Perhaps, if the government restructuring results in their being a domestic-only carrier.
44 Centrair : NW helped build JL after WWII by providing aircraft and crew training plus some economic assistance. DL will help JL rebuild. History is cyclical. Or
45 Planeguy : I'm sure KE, SQ, EK plus a few other carriers must be salivating.
46 Zeke : Bit early to say, I understand that some of the offers put to JAL so far include the provision of a swap of cash for aircraft slots. After reading th
47 Centrair : It is suppose to be announced in a month. But I have a feeling it will be dragged out till a little closer to the end of bankruptcy. It would make mo
48 Post contains links Flying-Tiger : Appears that there a couple of UFO order, which can now be attributed to JAL: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aar85GD6P5L0&pos=6 U
49 LAXtoATL : Not likely. JL needs to file an ATI application a.s.a.p. or they will fall behind ANA and Star alliance, and I don't think they want to be at competi
50 Carpethead : JL is re-organizing and since the current fleet doesn't fit future plans they are going to order more aircraft. I am I missing something here. Only in
51 Zeke : Would be very surprised to see those 767s being built. No, look at Delta with its last Chapter 11.
52 Dank : First, I believe that these are existing orders, not ones placed after they declared bankruptcy, so it is possible that they will renegotiate these c
53 Stitch : With no 787-3, they may be needed for replacement of existing frames.
54 Cubsrule : Agreed, although they are probably already behind. UA/NH didn't have to deal with the bidding war and have an easier application.
55 RobK : Based on one 767 per month out of Seattle, they are due in Sep and Oct this year.
56 LAXtoATL : As others have mentioned this is not unique to Japan or JAL. The term bankruptcy gets misunderstood a lot. Their are two main paths a "bankrupt" comp
57 Stitch : As LAXtoATL notes above, if JL's fleet is a major drain on resources due to it being the wrong composition (too large or too small aircraft for the r
58 NYCAdvantage : True, the application is way behind UA/CO/NH, but at the end I do not think it will matter too much, because I do believe they will grant ATI to both
59 Cubsrule : Imagine a situation in which DoT does two things at once: 1) Tells UA/NH "We will approve your application with Concessions A, B, and C" 2) Tells DL/
60 LAXtoATL : A lot in this world is not fair. NH is already upset that JL has been and still is receiving special treatment from the Japanese gov't and thus givin
61 Cubsrule : But the US hardly benefits at all from the Open Skies treaty. What's in fast-tracking for them (besides diplomatic considerations, which we've hashed
62 Post contains links NYCAdvantage : You know I will agree with you there too, but even with that, looking at it from a neutral position, DL may still get ATI with JAL why lets look at t
63 Panamair : The US in general LOVES Open Skies with all countries in the world and believes that Open Skies ultimately leads to better options and prices for tra
64 Cubsrule : No. The US loves truly open open skies. The US has not, to my knowledge, expressed an opinion one way or the other on "open skies in name only," and,
65 Stitch : Boeing has updated their orders website today to reflect that the 21 UFOs placed on 17 September 2008 were for JL.
66 PlaneHunter : They also need to keep capable aircraft in the fleet. Many airlines have decided to switch to smaller and more efficient planes - apparently the righ
67 VC10er : This is So VARIG of JAL. They need to just look to the other side of the world and learn the story of VARIG and TAM. It was not that long ago when peo
68 DLPMMM : It is a complete open skies agreement. The slot restrictions and slot allocation method at the 2 Japanese airports are unrelated to the Open Skies ag
69 Airbuseric : Most aircraft are via leasing agreements. They might get rid of the B744 fleet one by one when each leasing contract per frame ends. btw, how come sa
70 Cubsrule : That's incorrect, actually. Under the terms of the Order Limiting Scheduled Operations at JFK, carriers may swap authorizations and may also lease th
71 LAXtoATL : They just did. It is silly that you keep arguing that this OpenSkies agreement with Japan does not meet the U.S. standard for OpenSkies when they jus
72 Cubsrule : Agreed - but the argument that you and others make goes one step further. You all argue that the US will go out of its way to protect this agreement.
73 DLPMMM : The USA does not need to go out of their way. The agreement is their baby. Any administration will protect the treaties they have negotiated to the b
74 Cubsrule : The concern isn't about the US backing out. It's about the US not approving an ATI for NH and/or JL that is acceptable to those carriers. What percen
75 DLPMMM : That would be the USA backing out. The USA negotiated the side letter with the Japanese where the Open Skies agreement will not be ratified by the Ja
76 AAExecPlat : I will readily admit that I am not an expert on Openskies agreements, and on this particular Openskies agreement. But from what I have read, this Open
77 Cubsrule : All right. What percentage of Japanese people know that they've recently negotiated an open skies agreement with America? What percentage of Japanese
78 MAH4546 : Four daily flights to Haneda and just about nothing else. The agreement is a joke - but at the same time there is really nothing the U.S. can do abou
79 LAXtoATL : Which was part of the agreement. One in the same. It has nothing to do with the American public being aware. Japan is aware and so are other governme
80 Cubsrule : Are you arguing that the Japanese government is more important to President Obama than American consumers are?
81 LAXtoATL : This is silly. No one is arguing that ANY agreement would be approved, but clearly a viable ATI agreement can be reached and there will influence fro
82 Cubsrule : What you are missing, I think, is the differing definitions of "viable." Look at AA/BA. Is AA's definition of "viable" the same as DoTs? The evidence
83 LAXtoATL : What you are missing, I think, is common sense. The U.S. will grant ATI to JL & ANA to complete the OpenSkies agreement. Because the agreement calls
84 DLPMMM : Come on, you are just being argumentative. Did you not bother reading the entire post? I never said anything about international public opnion, I sai
85 MAH4546 : The only one missing common sense is you if are implying that the airlines will control what the definition of ATI is. The one thing I would look for
86 Cubsrule : Is the text of the agreement available online somewhere? I've looked it for for the past month but have not yet found it. But it's true for most grou
87 Centrair : How about Americans finding those places on a map? (note...Japanese don't do well at that either) But that is besides the point. With the whole bankr
88 AAExecPlat : So what you are saying is that any ATI that JL and NH and concoct is to be rubber stamped by the US government because it is by definition commercial
89 Aaron747 : At least one KIX-PVG frequency, likely the 738. Beach routes are very low yield and hardly make money even when full so I expect KIX-DPS, KIX-GUM and
90 AAExecPlat : DLPMM...I don't even know where to start... Cubs saying that the average American not being aware of US/Japan Openskies hardly forces the US governmen
91 Post contains links DLPMMM : I don't have the text yet, but here is the report on the side letter to the open skies agreement from the Wall Street Journal. http://online.wsj.com/a
92 Cubsrule : Correct - but the more interesting question is what the US promised. You said: How can we know that without seeing the text of the side letter?
93 DLPMMM : I should have said the Japanese Delegation (which is essentially the same thing).
94 Centrair : What is amazing is how many of these are not JL mainline but JO or JC. Why do they have subsidiaries overlapping mainline? JO - international subsidi
95 AAExecPlat : I can't read the whole article, but if I trust what I have read and use common sense, then things are as follows: 1) Japan negotiates with US conditi
96 Carpethead : The HNL runs could be slashed if they decide to go with NW. Low yield- yes, but there are still plenty of Japanese wanting to spend their vacation on
97 Cubsrule : Interestingly, QF feels they have made it work, and has offered assistance to JL to make it work. It seems to work better in your part of the world t
98 LAXtoATL : I have never said that the DOT would rubber stamp any application submitted by the carriers. I have addressed this in previous posts, concessions wil
99 Cubsrule : Why? Why shouldn't it be done like every other ATI? Doesn't the American public deserve that?
100 Post contains images MAH4546 : No, I will not come to realize that. ATI will be a major hurdle. How big of a deal it is will largely depend on how much JAL and DAL are willing to c
101 AAExecPlat : Why? So the US can have access to those 4 Haneda slots pronto?
102 AAExecPlat : On a related note...this Openskies agreement is a true boondoggle. How our idiotic administration could not only agree, but push an agreement that dis
103 DLPMMM : That's about it, except for the vacuum comment. The USA and Japan work under the existing bi-lateral until ATI approval and Open Skies ratification,
104 LAXtoATL : I did say that bankruptcy changes nothing as far as AA & DL's interest in JAL. It was in response to somebody's question if a JL bankruptcy from dete
105 Jetlanta : Not fair at all. The U.S. has had a enormously disproportionate advantage in this deal since just after WWII. 25% of NRT slots, two carriers with nea
106 AAExecPlat : What did the US want and get? 4 Haneda slots? Our administration couldn't possibly be this idiotic. Correct...except the government "guided" JAL's pa
107 LAXtoATL : You do realize this is the same OpenSkies agreement that AA strongly supported the U.S. gov't agreeing to?
108 AAExecPlat : I do realize that. They might have acted in their self-interest, but that doesn't make the agreement any better...I find the agreement ridiculous, ev
109 Asiaflyer : I fail to see your logic here. More 767 does not take JL out of the crisis. Those fuel hogs are one of the reasons JL is where they are. With alot of
110 Airbuseric : Next week (around Feb 1st) 3 JL international B744's will ferry out to VCV for storage. This will be JA8073, 8080 and 8914. More will follow at a late
111 Cpd : You are assuming that the 773ER is a small efficient plane. It is also a big, heavy guzzling machine. Those 2 B777 orders can go, along with the B767
112 DLPMMM : Nope, the HND slots are unrelated to Open Skies. USA carriers will be unable to utilize any HND slots until the bi-lateral is amended to incorporate
113 Aaron747 : In addition to their JV application to the US with CO and UA, rumor mill has it here that ANA is about to formally complain to the government about th
114 DLPMMM : From ATWonline: ANA President and CEO Shinichiro Ito yesterday expressed concern over the Japanese government's heavy involvement in Japan Airlines'
115 Cubsrule : I'm confused. Isn't the open skies agreement the (particular) bilateral that permits HND access. No market restrictions - except that they cannot do
116 Post contains links NYCAdvantage : This sounds familiar to me, Japan Airlines Corp. plans to cut around 15,000 jobs by March 2011, including close to 3,000 through an early retirement p
117 DLPMMM : The current bi-lateral with Japan (which will remain in effect until an Open Skies agreement is ratified) does not allow HND access for USA carriers.
118 AAExecPlat : DLPMMM. Thanks for your offer. That's a very generous offer. I do, however, still have my own eight that will expire in Feb, and I am earning eight m
119 Cubsrule : But you said they were unrelated - I'm still confused. Am I just being stupid?
120 DLPMMM : I thought I was clear. I'll try again with bullet points. 1. The Open Skies agreement ratification is conditional by the Japanese Government upon USA
121 Cubsrule : Each of those bullet points is clear. What's not clear is what you meant by this: Did you mean that the slots aren't related even though access itsel
122 DLPMMM : Yes, that is exactly how it all works out. The slots agreement for NRT and HND is independent of the Open Skies agreement. If Open Skies is not ratif
123 Cubsrule : Thank you - I'm no longer confused. Sorry to be so slow.
124 JAL : Gonna miss the 747 in JAL's colors!
125 AirNz : Aren't you 'comparing' two entirely different things there?? It's been done many times when it suits a given circumstance/agenda. Strange we heard th
126 DLPMMM : Please give examples of these "many times" that the USA has unilaterally reneged on an aviation agreement with another country (and there have been h
127 Centrair : Just something to think about. Anagram for Korean, Delta, Japan "Joke and a prenatal" Korean, Delta, Japan Airlines is "Jerk on palatial, insane dear"
128 Post contains links Aaway : The Gerson Lehman consultancy is suggesting that Skymark Airlines could reap the benefits of the JAL fallout within Japan, possibly using this a sprin
129 Centrair : I read this and thought, "oh that could work." until I read this So they could benefit but are going to reduce wide-bodies and fly only 737-800s. Tha
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