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The New Frontier/Midwest  
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27337 posts, RR: 81
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18571 times:

The previous thread was getting very long, and with the departure of SM, this seems like a good time to start a new thread.

I've said that I am disappointed about SM leaving - but if he was unhappy, better to leave now than to stick around, that unhappiness growing. If there is to be a break with the past, maybe it's better to make a complete break.

So now it is all on BB - and what he does.

From the git-go, I've called it a virtual merger. Now it looks as if it will be an actual merger, with few hard clues as to the surviving name.

Despite what BB says, I'm guessing the decision has already been made, and they're working out how to implement that decision.

Just for the record, or to remind people, there are 10 aircraft coming in to the fleet over the next few months - 3 x A320 (new build) and 7 x E190, ex US Airways.

I guess they will start appearing in the schedules fairly soon. The only clues I've heard are that the A320 may - stress "may" - make an appearance at MKE.

I'm also wondering if BB will find a replacement for SM, in that job capacity, and, if he does - who it will be.


aeternum nauta
298 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently onlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2603 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18575 times:

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
Despite what BB says, I'm guessing the decision has already been made, and they're working out how to implement that decision.

I think you are right. His memo that was posted in the previous post clearly laid out that they were going to go to one brand. Now, the only discussion I see is, which will it be?

User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18563 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 1):

I think you are right. His memo that was posted in the previous post clearly laid out that they were going to go to one brand. Now, the only discussion I see is, which will it be?

My guess is we'll know in next few months when these aircraft are painted.

My pure guess/ gut is that Frontier would survive. Much better brand recognition and product than Midwest....just seems to have stuff figured out better with pricing, advertisements, website etc.

I bet anything that all the new planes are painted in F9 colors.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 24308 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18493 times:

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
I guess they will start appearing in the schedules fairly soon. The only clues I've heard are that the A320 may - stress "may" - make an appearance at MKE.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I see two roles for the 320 in MKE:

1) Compete with FL at hauling people to Florida, something YX failed at (many people say - and I agree - that the addition of Saver in an effort to do more leisure flying was the beginning of the end of YX). A bigger, low-CASM airplane should compete well

2) Add seats to the slot-restricted markets, perhaps freeing a few slots for use elsewhere. That's a big part of how they use the 320s at DEN, and it makes a lot of sense.

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 2):
Much better brand recognition and product than Midwest....

The brand recognition depends almost entirely on where you are, I think. YX is better-known in the midwest. F9 is better-known on, well, the frontier.

I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineElBandGeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 776 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18494 times:

Given the fact that Midwest is already a shell of an airline as it is, I would put money on the Frontier brand surviving. YX has a strong following in MKE and that's about it. Even there they've been losing their recognition with FL coming in. F9 is still a strong brand and lacks the "regional" connotations. Maybe RAH will pull a US and rename either RP or S5 with the Midwest name as a way of preserving the legacy (and by that of course, I mean trademark  duck  )

User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks ago) and read 18411 times:

I wonder if the surviving brand will be "Republic".  Sad

But I hope the F9 brand survives. One of the most creative to be sure.

User currently onlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2603 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks ago) and read 18406 times:

Quoting ElBandGeek (Reply 4):
YX has a strong following in MKE and that's about it. Even there they've been losing their recognition with FL coming in

How do they then keep winning alll those travel awards? Weighted voting from the Milwaukee? Just a question.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 6050 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks ago) and read 18386 times:

Thanks for starting a more managable, current thread Mariner.

I would agree with those thinking Frontier will be the surviving name of the resulting carrier of all this current mish-mash of airlines. I think that with a much larger route map (read: number of stations), F9 does have more brand-recognition around North America and, of course, the whole livery-thing is second to none. (Important question: are there enough animals on the planet to cover a larger fleet of planes?)

From a personal viewpoint (ain't that always the way?), I would expect that many in SAN, like myself, have a bit of a bad taste in our mouths about Midwest's on-and-off, here-and-not-here antics over the years at Lindbergh, finally ending in Sept of 2008, never to be seen again. Around these here parts anyway, I would bet that Frontier would be a much better choice as the surviving name...

I think the omnipresent question of how MCI fits into this newly-forming airline is right up there with discussions concerning DEN, MKE, and IND. (Again, personally, I do hope SAN sees service to some or all of these cities fairly soon.)  stirthepot 


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4028 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks ago) and read 18379 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 1):
His memo that was posted in the previous post clearly laid out that they were going to go to one brand. Now, the only discussion I see is, which will it be?

This blog entry quotes Frontier Spokesman Peter Kowalchuk's response to that question:

When he's asked if Frontier plans an advertising campaign intended to emphasize its Denver connections, Kowalchuk notes that "we have a significant research project underway. More than 25,000 research surveys have gone out to our customers nationwide to find out what their perceptions are of the company and our sister company in Republic's operations, Midwest Airlines. We will be making decisions about the future of the company, the brand and its operations when we get those surveys back -- deciding how we promote the company and the brand nationwide."


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27337 posts, RR: 81
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks ago) and read 18356 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 7):
(Important question: are there enough animals on the planet to cover a larger fleet of planes?)

LOL. They've only just begun! After the successful campaign to get a parrot on a tail, I then started one for a flamingo - and that happened, too. I might work on a kiwi or a wombat.  Smile

There are several good tails from the E170's that could be used - I liked the frog a lot and I loved the swan with cygnets.

But since the surviving name seems to intrigue, here is what BB said in his letter to the staff, from the previous thread:

"As for the brand question, this opens a very thorny set of issues as both Midwest and Frontier employees (and equally important their customers) are rightfully very invested in their respective “hometown” brands. We want to respect those feelings and help coach both sides to a mutually beneficial yet unified brand solution. I don't have all the answers today but we are doing the hard work to get the information we need that will allow our employees and our customers to decide the product attributes they want for the merged brand. Again a very delicate situation but we have to address the issues, drive consensus and move forward. Technology is a major pacing item in this process and we are depending on the east and west IT teams to work together for the best common platform. Again there is a lot of emotion involved in making these selections, but we need to focus on the long term opportunity and make the best decisions for the common good of all our employees and ease of use for our customers."


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4028 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks ago) and read 18340 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
Quoting SANFan (Reply 7):
(Important question: are there enough animals on the planet to cover a larger fleet of planes?)

LOL. They've only just begun! After the successful campaign to get a parrot on a tail, I then started one for a flamingo - and that happened, too. I might work on a kiwi or a wombat

Just slap one of these on the tail and dedicate it to Southwest  Wink

The plane's nickname could be "Rabid Rewards."


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 6050 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18276 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 10):
The plane's nickname could be "Rabid Rewards."

Hey Mike, isn't that a snapshot of your own lap dog? (Fantastic post! I'm still laughing; thanks for the fun!)  Smile


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18242 times:

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
with the departure of SM, this seems like a good time to start a new thread.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 7):
I would agree with those thinking Frontier will be the surviving name of the resulting carrier

I sure hope so. To borrow the Texas tourism catch phrase "Its a whole other country" and tweak it slightly Frontier, its a whole other company"

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 5):
are there enough animals on the planet to cover a larger fleet of planes?)

I still have my flippers crossed for a Humpback Whale critter on a future tail, breaching in Alaska's Inside Passage. Now that we have two Alaska cities

Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18219 times:

Quoting ElBandGeek (Reply 4):
Maybe RAH will pull a US and rename either RP or S5 with the Midwest name as a way of preserving the legacy (and by that of course, I mean trademark duck )

Or name one of them Skyway  Wink

I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4028 posts, RR: 30
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18211 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 11):
Hey Mike, isn't that a snapshot of your own lap dog?

No, I have a cat. (she's given me that same general look, though and my right foot still has the 4 little teeth marks she left when she caught me flirting with the neighbor's cat.)

BTW, I noticed that the survey being sent out is to customers nationwide. I wonder what percentage were sent to DEN flyers, what percentage were sent to MKE flyers and what percent were sent to fliers in the spoke/focus cities.

I can't speak for Austinites, but my guess is they'd vote for keeping the Frontier brand simply due to the fact that Frontier was been here several years now, while Midwest has come and gone twice.


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18166 times:

I think it will be F9 as it has a bigger footprint then YX... meaning more recognition instantly. The big question I have is will Republic keep it's HQ in IND or move to DEN. Unfortunately, I believe the answer is the company will head for the mountains.... though I hold out hope for my home town that Republic elects to stay in IND and just find a bigger building to rent or buy. They already moved training out of HQ to a place closer to IND... but who knows if that will stay or go if HQ goes to DEN.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27337 posts, RR: 81
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18129 times:

Quoting LV (Reply 15):
The big question I have is will Republic keep it's HQ in IND or move to DEN.

All the evidence suggests it will be based out of IND:


"Republic Airways Holdings Inc., which bought Frontier Airlines and Midwest Airlines last year, says it will move all of its executives to its base in Indianapolis as it further consolidates its two new airlines."

Previously, BB has said that Frontier will have its HQ at DEN for as long as SM is with the airline. Now, SM is leaving.

That's much of what the present fuss is about at DEN.


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineElBandGeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 776 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18089 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 5):
I wonder if the surviving brand will be "Republic".

Well they could at least keep one animal on the tails. Does Delta own the rights to Herman now, or did NW let the trademark lapse? What do you think their price would be for that one  Silly

User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17912 times:

Forgive me for asking as I dont really want to wade through all the other threads. Why is SM leaving?

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27337 posts, RR: 81
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17888 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 18):
Why is SM leaving?

The only thing that has been said publicly is "personal reasons."

A division of opinion with BB? Or he discovered he didn't like the way Republic wanted to go?

Or that he missed being the boss? Or he decided that two "bosses" wasn't a good idea. Or a burnt out case needing a break?

For the moment, or until someone says something other, take your pick.


[Edited 2010-01-19 17:30:30 by mariner]

aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17842 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 18):

To run a marathon  Smile

We'll probably know more in the coming months but Mariner's thoughts are good theories.

User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3343 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17806 times:

Would the new "brand" necessarily have to be one of the existing component carriers? How about an entirely new, LCC brand and image to rival WN, FL, B6, et al? Start from scratch with a clean slate, so to speak?

Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 9852 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17734 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 19):
The only thing that has been said publicly is "personal reasons."

Everything I hear is that the decision was made when F9 exited and SM only committed to stay "6 months through the transition". That explains why:

1) SM's team of leaders have all been dismissed over the last few months. If he was staying he wouldn't have let that happen.
2) BB said cryptically "Marketing will remain in DEN as long as SM is with the company". I pointed out at the time how odd that statement was.
3) Also, I am aware that the plan to close the DEN HQ was created many months ago...which was alluded to in BB's recent statement which refers to working with Ted Christie to eliminate duplicate positions in Denver as early as during the Ch11 process. SM had already stated he would not move from DEN so that made it clear he would not be staying.
4) Former YX marketing people were commuting to DEN rather than permanently relocating which indicates they knew marketing was leaving and thus that SM would not be staying with the company.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27337 posts, RR: 81
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17653 times:

Quoting Enilria (Reply 22):
Everything I hear is that the decision was made when F9 exited and SM only committed to stay "6 months through the transition".

As I've said before, you must have a very low opinion of SM if he took the signing bonus under false pretenses.


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineStoliBabe From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17651 times:

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 5):
I wonder if the surviving brand will be "Republic".

Hmm .. not a bad name at all ... though, i think Frontier should be the name used.

25 Beryllium : They could preserve both names, calling it "MidwestFrontier"... or just "MF Airlines" (to keep it short).
26 SkyguyB727 : My guess is that Frontier will be the surviving brand. All of the Midwest Connect staff now have Frontier company badges. They haven't had any type of
27 StoliBabe : Umm .. "MF Airlines"?
28 DeltaRules : Here's what I'm curious about & maybe some can explain it to me. I figure this might be the place to bring it up seeing as the changes probably explai
29 Enilria : I guess you didn't read my post. Read it again. Clearly BB knew he was going to leave. You are so naive to think a $1 million bonus comes with no con
30 Beryllium : "Brevity is the sister of talent" as Russian writer Anton Chekhov once said... They gotta keep it laconic, if they wanna preserve both brand names...
31 Mariner : I did read your post. Whatever financial agreements occurred between SM and BB are not the point. It is the effect on the staff. When have I said tha
32 Aloha717200 : Some might associate that with "another" MF abbreviation....a profane one. Frontier Midwest sounds nice...sort of like the short lived Frontier Horiz
33 YXwatcherMKE : I think that the survey will "show" that a new name should be used. And the new name will be "Republic Airlines." Just my gut feeling, and may wife ag
34 Beryllium : Right you are... and that's exactly what would make the brand known around the country in an instant... kinda like MILF fare sale of NK... (Many Isla
35 Legacytravel : I can see the RP brand sticking. It still known in the Midwest. Frontier has better recoginition over all. It will be interesting to see what goes on
36 SkyguyB727 : Do you really think Chautauqua Airlines is that well known? When I quote a flight as operated by Chautauqua Airlines (RP), most people have no idea w
37 LoneStarMike : I think RP - in this case - refers to Republic. LoneStarMike
38 SkyguyB727 : RP=Chautauqua Airlines RW=Republic Airlines That seems unlikely due to the potential confusion with the original Republic Airlines. Look at the compa
39 LoneStarMike : I agree with you on that point. National was another name that got recycled and they're long gone. And let's not forget Braniff 2 and Braniff 3. For
40 Mariner : Wouldn't this "coaching" still apply if either name was chosen? It could be argued that the US Airways (the pilots, at least) needed some coaching to
41 LoneStarMike : Perhaps, but in the US/HP case the "coaching" had more to do with seniority and pay rates, and less to do with brand identity. And I'll ask the same
42 Mariner : I thought it had to do with attitude. I remember a great deal of crowing by US people that they had swallowed America West. Legally, of course, it wa
43 Ivo : At Airlinerlist.com there appears some c/n for A320s (4140,4159) for an unknown operator. The deliveries are now around c/n 4130. Could it be that the
44 USPIT10L : Gee, that's interesting. My coworkers all wear Midwest sweatshirts and jackets. Don't know what stations you're going through.
45 YXwatcherMKE : Pan Am when Bk after the in air bombing in over lockerbie Ireland. And the second try with the Pan Am name was done to soon after the event plus poor
46 JohnClipper : Does NW, nee DL still own the "Republic" name? In a similar vein, does AA still own the "TWA" name?
47 NorCal : I don't see it as a bad thing if he keeps the money. If it is perceived to be bad then it could just be relabeled as a "severance" package. Severance
48 Dfanucci : Bingo! Killing either name is going to upset the other side, but out right changing the entire airline name would alienate the most important; the cu
49 Sideflare75 : My question is why do the 190's keep showing up painted in Midwest colors if in a few months the name will be gone?? Another one was in paint just las
50 MKENut : I was thinking that too, but as an outsider to the aviation industry I have no idea how much it costs to paint an aircraft. One thing I am interested
51 GentFromAlaska : The geographical stability thing I mentioned in the other thread. I' suspect the other meaning has been mentioned a time or two in recent weeks.
52 GentFromAlaska : Might the intention be to keep the YX brand staged to fly eastward from the east bank of the Mississippi river (north to south) where it is better kn
53 Enilria : It can't be false pretenses if his boss knew he would leave and there was a contract in place to allow for that outcome as, of course, there was. Wha
54 Cubsrule : Sure. They just have to disclose the actual operator, just like Express carriers do now.
55 Mariner : I think it is fine if he keeps the money. The money, itself, is not the issue. But if it is a set-up - that he had only agreed to stay six months - t
56 Enilria : Mariner I do like you, but you live in a dream world. This type of thing happens all the time particularly with mergers. If there is a respected manag
57 Mariner : Then I guess your inbox is not full - as mine is - with angry emails from ex-FRNT shareholders who bought RJET on the basis of SM going to Republic l
58 Enilria : Do you also think the CEOs editorial in any inflight magazine is actually written by the CEO? It isn't. It's written by the P.R. departement with at
59 KELPkid : They appear to have uncerimoniously dropped ELP from the list of destinations...at a time when my wife and I were thinking about going home to visit m
60 Post contains links Mariner : I've said what I have to say. You have, on a number of occasions, put words in my mouth, such as here: OAG Changes 7/3/09: AA/DL/F9/NW/UA (by Enilria
61 KELPkid : Okay, this is driving me nuts. Who is BB? Those happen to be my initals, too
62 Enilria : If you have to go back 7 months to find something I was wrong about then I'm smiling. Really all of this is irrelevant. Water under the bridge. The r
63 Mariner : You went back further than that in the previous thread to do a "gotcha" with me. For the rest, I don't see the point in responding anymore. mariner
64 JA : I don't think Mariner lives in the Matrix. I'm reading a book on mergers and acquisitions right now and the biggest thing according to them that make
65 F9Animal : LOL! Bryan Bedford, CEO of Republic.
66 KELPkid : Thanks! Signed, the other BB
67 IndyWA : 2 points to make: For those of you that keep asking if the Republic name is owned by NW and/or DL -- There has been Republic Airlines flying around fo
68 Enilria : That's true. Managed communication. Part of good communication is communicating what is useful. For example, if BB announced "we are looking at getti
69 Cubsrule : Perhaps, but maybe not. IIRC, US doesn't have scope restrictions on aircraft on the certificate operated for others. And even if it did, they have Re
70 Mariner : Ain't that the truth. If there were any basis to the conspiracy theory, there was an easy way to communicate the reality - by telling the truth and p
71 Enilria : Plus the name on the airplane and the name on the certificate don't have to be the same anyway. BB is obviously quite aware of that. I wouldn't be su
72 Post contains links LoneStarMike : This Business Travel News article doesn't make it sound like SM's position will be filled before he leaves. LoneStarMike
73 MKENut : I believe NWA/DL owns the rights to Herman and they probably will keep it buried for a long time. I think there should be a rule of "use it or lose i
74 Mariner : I can't say I'm falling over in shock. Ultimately, the final decisions on anything rest on BB. It was his vision to create this. As I said in the oth
75 JBo : Indy, Republic Airways Holdings owns both Frontier/Midwest and the Republic Airlines which flies for US Airways Express. All RAH would have to do is
76 GSPSPOT : Agreed! Would love to see both Herman and the REAL Sun King fly again (I think someone used it a while back, but not in its original 2-tone orange sp
77 USPIT10L : Southeast Airlines (or SEAL as they called it) used it for charter service on MD-87s until 2004 or so. They were based at PIE.
78 NorCal : They might run into problems with putting the Airways E-170s on the Chautauqua certificate because of scope agreements with American. APA (AA's pilot
79 Cubsrule : IIRC, UA scope applies both to the planes flown for UA and to other planes on the certificate. My sense with all of this, though, is that if BB saw a
80 NorCal : I agree, IIRC there is no issue with the US scope (hence why the E-190s are on the Republic certificate and not Shuttle). The only limit on the UA sc
81 JBo : The name on the certificate really has nothing to do with the brand. They can work around that. It'd just be a matter of jockeying aircraft around on
82 Enilria : That is extremely disturbing and reeks of dishonesty. The "executive team under Sean" is gone. Who remains? The following F9 execs are recently gone:
83 NorCal : True but it might be confusing for passengers to have Frontier operated by Republic or Republic operated by Frontier RAH can't send anything larger t
84 Post contains links and images Mariner : I meant to address this earlier (you've posted it twice), but I got distracted, sorry. I guess people will go back to the auction for a long time to
85 Onaclearday : While change is the only constant--especially in the airline business--and some degree of change after emergence from bk could be expected, SM always
86 Mariner : You and I have discussed this before, and we see it differently. If Frontier had emerged as a standalone, it would not have been a "changed" airline,
87 Onaclearday : I agree. I was making a different point.
88 JBo : That's why you change the name on the certificate. Last I knew, the RAH pilots' union requires all crews flying under the RAH company - no matter wha
89 Azstar : In spite of all the criticism of Brian Bedford, there are two positive steps in the right direction which proves he "gets it". 1) He recognizes that t
90 Ridgid727 : When is Republic Holdings going to release their 4th quarter results?
91 NorCal : You're right but SLI doesn't happen overnight, which is why I said: Yes you are correct, but to start shifting aircraft around before integration wou
92 Enilria : Quoting Azstar (Reply 89): In spite of all the criticism of Brian Bedford BTW, I just noticed that BB said in a recent written statement to employees
93 NorCal : I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is true diverting seems a little extreme. Confiscation seems more in order but if the passenger refuses
94 ScottB : I suspect you are drastically over-thinking this process. If the long-term plan is to consolidate the Frontier and Midwest brands as "Republic," the
95 Apodino : You would be shocked to learn how much porn is actually viewed on the flight deck by pilots in flight. And the sad thing is, they often forget to tak
96 Enilria : Oh he said it in his "11/13/2009 Weekly Letter". Whether they are ignoring him "in the field" is another question.
97 Mariner : It was a sentimental victory at the time. People's passions were involved. No, Republic can't. But the fall in RJET shares has been dramatic - contin
98 Beryllium : That's because there is no IFE on those flights. People want entertainment. It is extremely boring to spend hours in the aircraft seat with nothing t
99 Post contains links Mariner : So according to the Denver Post, the airline is receiving 3 x A330. http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_14233712 DP "Coming up this year will be the
100 NorCal : My simple point is there is really no need to shift names and aircraft around just so they don't confuse US Airways passengers. Just wait till SLI is
101 Mariner : I've read it too - and referred to it in another thread - I'll comment. I love porn. What I do in the privacy of my own home is fine, but I don't thi
102 NorCal : Interesting to know. It would be interesting to see how many ignore this mandate from the company and what happens to them if they do. Personally if
103 NorCal : There is a time and a place, aircraft and other public places aren't appropriate.
104 Enilria : Would you divert an aircraft and arrest somebody over that?
105 Loggat : A weekly letter is not a "mandate" per our operations. After 4 years with this company, I'm used to reading his tones and insinuations. Funnily enough
106 Enilria : Actually here is a better question. What exactly is the law on this? What about the subway in NYC? Is it illegal? I don't know. It should be the same
107 Mariner : For just watching porn? Of course not. If someone consistently refused to turn it off, then, depending on the manner of that passenger, and all the c
108 Enilria : I think the problem is that as a passerby on an airplane I don't know if you can quickly tell an R rated movie from an X rated movie unless you watch
109 Mariner : I don't disagree with him. It's his airline - his rules. If you're so desperate to find - yet another - stick to beat BB, I'll hand one to you. Why n
110 AirplaneBoy : I personally think that the Frontier brand will be the surviving brand if RAH decides to unify the branded operations under one common name and brand.
111 Ridgid727 : Right after 9-11 didn't this happen when some Muslims started to pray on an America West flight?
112 ScottB : Again, you're over-thinking things. Let's leave the old Midwest name out of it since the certificate is gone. Simply rename the airline currently cal
113 Mariner : It happened yesterday. A Jewish man, saying his prayers. All I know is this - Frontier has been at its least successful when they have chased Southwe
114 PI731 : I personally think is should be Frontier as well. The success their having in MKE is due to the 319s and the Frontier service. What is offered on a
115 Enilria : I don't know about that. That's what should happen. That would make sense. Is that what will *actually* happen? Who knows. The other solution that ne
116 Amatiel : I think it is more likely that Frontier joins Skyteam than partners with UA.
117 Mariner : There's a thread about it. mariner
118 F9Animal : When the BB first came out, I too was in the wondering mode of "who is BB"?
119 Atlwest1 : I think its more likely Frontiermidwestrepublic become one brand(Republic) and then get bought by a larger much stronger entity. Even the combined gr
120 NorCal : I'm not sure they can just change the name on the operating certificate (but I'll try and find out). I would think if it was just as simple as whitin
121 Lrdc9 : Haha Don't I know it. I got the pleasure of staying in a very nice Indianapolis hotel on a divert. On a flight that I was rebooked on after the first
122 ScottB : For now, Midwest is a familiar brand in the MKE market while Frontier is familiar in the DEN market. If the intent is to move to a single brand (whic
123 JBo : Or Atlantic Coast Airlines to Independence Air.
124 NorCal : My question was if RAH crosses off Republic on the Republic certificate and replaces it with Midwest, does it technically become the Midwest certific
125 AirportGuy1971 : Maybe not. The former entity was Midwest Airlines. Republic could rebrand as Midwest Air Lines.
126 Enilria : OK, I read it. So to summarize, a Republic operated flight had the plane divert because an Orthodox Jew decided to pray on the plane. This isn't surp
127 Mariner : I'd said I was giving you a stick to beat BB. Except it was a US Airways flight. Their flight, their rules. mariner
128 JBo : Republic Airlines' certificate is certificate No. R61A with the FAA. Midwest's was MW1A or something like that. If Republic changed the name on the c
129 Post contains links Knope2001 : I don't think the marketing name or names they go with...whatever they are...will have anything to do with how they integrate or do not integrate the
130 GSPSPOT : ....As long as we recognize that Independence Air went under not because of lack of brand recognition, but because of inept management. Indy Air fill
131 Enilria : I appreciate the bat. Did I wield it well? Actually it clearly says in the November diatribe that the p0rn diversion policy applies to ANY Republic o
132 Mariner : Sort of. I wish you hadn't cheapened it with the extravagant extension and I don't know what this has to do with BB's thoughts on porn. I think it is
133 Txagkuwait : I believe that it is much more likely that all of this will ultimately be combined in to one airline "brand" and that brand will be Republic. Airline
134 LAXintl : I could go with a Republic Airlines or Airways branding. Might actually be a nice way to side-step thorny F9 vs YX feelings and have people rally arou
135 PlanesNTrains : Ok, that was funny. And I agree 100% with the rest. I'm not sure which you have more of a problem with, BB or the Bible. You seem loathe to both, but
136 PGNCS : You can buy condoms in an airport too, but you don't use those in the plane, do you? If it features pictures of nude people, don't pull it out in the
137 Post contains links Mariner : Who indeed? I seem to remember something about Southwest having issues with some female passengers being scantily clad? http://legacy.signonsandiego.
138 ScottB : IMO the issue is Bedford using his religious views as justification for a policy that is unreasonable. It's not unreasonable for the airline to prohi
139 NorCal : Gotcha, so then there is a difference between the name and the number. Didn't know that thanks for the clarification. I think the product is all the
140 NorCal : There are YX pilots on other forums saying they have filed grievances against RAH for violation of contract. Now filing a grievance doesn't mean they
141 PlanesNTrains : Oh, I understand. I guess my thought is if you took out the first sentence of your reply, it doesn't change anything that you are saying. Whether he
142 Mariner : This is not a religious matter. For many people, porn is an area of great social concern. Many, many women believe, rightly or wrongly, that porn is
143 PlanesNTrains : The thing is, the subway is government-operated public transportation. An airplane is usually a publicly owned company, but not government owned. If
144 FRNT787 : I could definitely see this being an issue. I am under the impression also that they are still attempting to discover what is the best route with the
145 GentFromAlaska : Ironically when the "p" word is mentioned the blinders go on and thought processes shift toward the male of the species. Lets not forget there are ma
146 Mariner : To those examples, I can only say "maybe." But I don't think those particular magazines are usually filled with images of blokes ramming a hard one u
147 PlanesNTrains : I don't think the TSA has to be involved with magaizines . Having said that, if we are going to let purveyors of this stuff be the deciding factor of
148 GentFromAlaska : I've never looked up the definition. In my mind I would think of it as the XXX stuff. It was reported in the media last night a City judicial system
149 Beryllium : Ha-ha... Life, actually, can sometimes be full of surprises... After all, there is a reason why they sell them at the airport...
150 Post contains links LoneStarMike : Has anyone seen this blog? Looks like it was just started in January. There are only 4 posts so far. All Things Frontier Airlines That's the subject o
151 Mariner : I've already read it. Holly Hegeman mentions it today in PlaneBuzz, agrees it is a disgruntled employee and refers to the video that was made - presu
152 IVO : The new A320's are leased from Aerventure. c/n 4254 will be N205FR c/n 4272 will be N206FR No info about the tails. Ivo
153 YXwatcherMKE : What is the advantage to the airlines in leasing their a/c vs. buying them? I have never really understood why they do that. If an airline only plans
154 NorCal : It's very difficult to buy a fleet of aircraft with the cash airlines have on hand. It's much easier to lease, which is why most aircraft are owned b
155 YXwatcherMKE : Yes I understand that most airlines do not have the cash on hand to buy the a/c out right but that is why Banks make loans to purchase the a/c, or is
156 GentFromAlaska : IMHO, leasing is a carry-over from start-up. Leasing although more expensive over the long haul otherwise keeps money fluid. The productive life expe
157 Mariner : There are a number of reasons for it, and I'm sure others can give you a more detailed response, but a deal of it has to do with residual value. The
158 YXwatcherMKE : Thank you GentFromAlaska and Mariner for your explanations, they were very helpful. So if I understand your explanation of the leases for the three A/
159 Mariner : Basically, yes. It would depend on whether the lessor wanted to sell. Some leases have an option to purchase built into them, some don't. It wouldn't
160 Enilria : Again, for me the issue is two-fold. 1) Should they really divert the flight? No. 2) I would never watch that on the plane, BUT I would watch an R Ra
161 Post contains links Mariner : I think I've said before that I've had an email correspondence with her for well over ten years, and a very friendly one. We have had agreements and
162 PI731 : If I worked for Frontier/Midwest, I’d be weary that my boss was now a Regional airline CEO. History is not on the side on this being a successful ad
163 MKENut : As long as BB surrounds himself with management that knows how to operate a branded airline I don't see a problem.... Now if he has cronies running t
164 Boydatageek : Over the years I have developed a healthy distrust of 90%+ of management in "Branded Airlines." In my opinion what he needs are good cost accountants
165 Mariner : His "cronies" at least appear loyal. Much as I admire SM, I regard him as a young lion, if he had done to me what he did to BB, I'd have told him to
166 AirportGuy1971 : I would hope that Mr. Bedford's decisions start being guided by the fact that he has disgruntled employees. (Something pretty new at F9 at these leve
167 Mariner : I'm sorry if you - or they - put that all on BB. SM must have known the effect his sudden departure would have. mariner
168 AirportGuy1971 : What's done is done. Frontier, in it's entire history has enjoyed a very healthy Managment/Employee relationship. It no longer does. However it became
169 MASTYC : Why would you assume SM has anything to do with it?
170 Mariner : I agree. But it isn't going to be fixed if a certain percentage of the staff react negatively to every change BB brings about and I simply do not kno
171 PlanesNTrains : IMHO, at the end of the day, you can either be part of the problem or part of the solution. All the pissing and moaning isn't going to help things get
172 Post contains links Mariner : SM's resignation has been perceived as very negative, both within the airline and without. http://industry.bnet.com/travel/1000...e-good/?tag=content
173 Beryllium : I guess, it is still not too late to offer F9 for sale yet another time. WN might still be interested. The resistance would not be that strong this t
174 GSPSPOT : I agreed with you before you even said it! THIS, I think, is the biggest obstacle to success here, and getting rid of those with the kind of experien
175 USPIT10L : All YX employees are now F9 employees, you wanna send the whole branded operation over to WN on a platter?
176 Lrdc9 : Yes! But it is important that RW figure out how to keep all of their employees motivated and really working for a common goal. I feel like with the r
177 Beryllium : I don't wanna. I just think it could be a possible scenario.
178 NorCal : Most airline CEOs need to learn this. Unfortunately most employees are viewed as liabilities on a budget instead of assets. Now you don't need to mak
179 Cubsrule : I'm not sure that a desire to avoid negotiating when it isn't strictly necessary is automatically a sign of bad labor relations. I'd agree that it ce
180 Loggat : I will confirm that as fact. If you look in the YX/F9 inflight magazine, you will see a seating diagram of a 190 and the last row on the Captain's si
181 Txagkuwait : I know a really vile Mickey Mouse joke....it has to do with Mickey having Minnie committed to an insane asylum. But since it is somewhat off-color an
182 NorCal : Perhaps, but IMO it certainly isn't a sign of good relations or someone that is willing to invest in employees. He is using a technicality to save a
183 Cubsrule : ...but he might not get those things. Negotiating carries risk (for both sides, not just for management), and it can be a sensible option to avoid ne
184 Cubsrule : Isn't there an alternate reading: that WN had no intention of keeping DEN anywhere near the size that F9 + WN would have been? That may or may not ha
185 FlyPNS1 : To be fair, I think there's a little more to it than that. Had WN won, a much larger percentage of F9 employees would have lost their jobs. There is
186 Mariner : Oh. I hear that Southwest had a deal already in place to sell Lynx. mariner
187 FRNT787 : In addition, I believe they would be required to add an additional F.A. on E190 flights once the 100th seat is used. (I thought it was at 100+ but it
188 ScottB : Negotiating a pay rate for a new aircraft doesn't require an entirely new contract; it can easily be done with a side letter. It truly all depends on
189 Cubsrule : It's 100. NW's DC9-30s are exactly 100 and 2 f/as. That's a good point, one I should have addressed myself. I'm unsure, though, how much difference i
190 TxAgKuwait : Okay, Hoss. I see your theory. Prove it. You can't. Nor can I prove that the converse is true. The only thing we have to go by is WN's prior purchase
191 Cubsrule : Again, though, that's pure fantasy. A merger would have resulted in WN plus a little, not WN + F9.
192 Mariner : Under almost any circumstances, I think it was poorly timed. SM and BB had several months together to work out what was going to happen. If there is
193 TxAgKuwait : I'd love to know who your source was. The folks I spoke to were telling me that Southwest has, for years, avoided a tie-in with a commuter or feeder
194 Mariner : They are several. I am told there had been previous issues about a regional at Southwest, with SWAPA voting that down. It is my understanding that SW
195 KingCavalier : If WN is/was so gung ho on a commuter carrier, then why haven't they started one? They don't need to buy Lynx to have a commuter feeder. I will not p
196 FlyPNS1 : But couldn't the same have been said of WN at one time in the past? They paid "crap wages" because they could and yet their employees still seemed to
197 Post contains links Mariner : Oh, I dunno. The new pilot contract, signed after the auction, suggests there is a deal of truth to it: http://blog.seattlepi.com/jetcheck/archives/1
198 KingCavalier : And that speaks volumes. The fact remains that feeder carriers are important revenue streams for the majors. WN has an awesome business plan, but as
199 NorCal : You're right it might not but chances are it probably will and from reading what RAH pilots have to say about it on other forums it doesn't sound lik
200 Post contains links Mariner : It sure does. What is interesting to me is that at the time Skywest made no secret of their interest in Lynx: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...
201 Cubsrule : But, by the same token, high wages do not guarantee productivity, employee happiness, or profitability - take a look at AA. There are many more piece
202 ScottB : It's very possible that the job turned out to be something very different from what Bryan Bedford had advertised to Sean Menke. It could have been as
203 KingCavalier : There wouldn't be a great value in OO having only 11 Q400's, but that would just have been a start. OO would have ordered more, and that's one of the
204 Mariner : That may be, and we can both go on repeating what we both have said for as long as you like. I'll simply repeat - whatever the reason it was poorly t
205 Mariner : And at that point, the 9 x Q400 (Lynx) options had not been cancelled. mariner
206 Amatiel : I think the reason people are using it 'as a stick to beat BB' is because of people's false impression that everything would stay the same under the
207 Mariner : Maybe. But how many times did SM say that Frontier could not emerge as the same airline it went in? At emergence, it was still the same airline - jus
208 ScottB : It is pretty much just adding a new type to the ASA (or SkyWest, but there might have been scope issues) certificate. Lynx was an expensive process,
209 Mariner : The point is that they wouldn't have had a fleet of just 11 x Q400 - or not for long. The 12th Q would be being delivered about now. You seem determi
210 Enilria : I don't see how you can say that with a straight face without knowing where Republic will be in 2 years. That was the transition period for WN. It's
211 FlyPNS1 : How many front line (pilots, FA, gate agents, ramp, etc) F9 people has RAH laid off? With WN, it would have been a considerable number as WN had NO i
212 Mariner : Why tell me again? You know I disagree. And I thought this was all "irrelevant" and "water under the bridge": mariner
213 KingCavalier : I guess I don't get it. The loss of none of the back office jobs surprise me. WN definitely wouldn't have needed these jobs, but RAH did offer transf
214 Post contains images Lrdc9 : And a damn shame past that. Is there any word on whether pay rates will be renegotiated when the YX/F9 pilots are all integrated into one list? We ha
215 NorCal : Not a good comparison, AA didn't get raises to get where they are today. They actually had pay cuts which is usually very bad for morale. I think eve
216 Lrdc9 : Exactly. There were so very few people layed of by RW, if any, as a result of the buyout. It is a good start, but it has to part of a greater effort
217 Mariner : How indeed? How did the pilot pay freeze at Southwest help morale, productivity or profitability, back in the day, some years after they had been fly
218 Lrdc9 : I'm quite sorry but this "newly created" airline is no less than 35 years old, founded in 1973. RW is not new to this business.
219 Mariner : Frontier/Midwest, this newly created airline, is barely four months old. How this new airline will be integrated into Republic is yet to be seen, cer
220 Lrdc9 : Frontier/Midwest is not yet created really. There has been no merge of YX employees into RW as of yet. They are all in fact F9 employees. But honestl
221 Mariner : Then I would disagree. mariner
222 Txagkuwait : Please be extremely careful about using the word "ball" lest BB have his airplane land and you find yourself being turned over to the authorities for
223 ScottB : The point also remains that if SkyWest had a customer interested in Q400's and had planned to acquire Lynx from Southwest, they would have ordered Q4
224 Mariner : Or - they didn't get the deal they were expecting. Once again, I'm not looking for a fight. All that you say - in that paragraph - is true. And that
225 CitrusCritter : Might as well recycle a name more widely known to consumers like TWA at that point. The Republic brand as a stand-alone airline died 25 years ago. Wh
226 Boydatageek : But then you would would be wrong since Midwest is the better brand to keep. Actually, my guess is that SM got overruled on that, which is why he qui
227 Sideflare75 : That's not really true. All the ex-Midwest mechanics now work for RW and are included on the overall seniority list. Not all YX employees became Fron
228 Antoniemey : Not necessarily... They didn't have to have a contract lined up if they bought Lynx from WN, because WN would have kept the F9 network running for aw
229 YXwatcherMKE : I keep reading how the wages are so low and that is going to be the downfall of RAH. This really bothers me a great deal, and here is my reason why. E
230 Lrdc9 : Whoops. My bad. I mentioned these folks, but failed to know they were integrated on the seniority list. Yes, well, just because you got screwed, does
231 GSPSPOT : Whatever happened to the concept of "pay for performance" - the better job you do (the more you contribute to the Bottom Line), the more you get paid?
232 NorCal : But from a pilot's perspective how am I going to be confident about a future pay raise at RAH if BB is deferring a seat on a larger aircraft to keep
233 Cubsrule : But apparently money is only a good motivator if you are underpaid to begin with. What RAH employees are underpaid? Are labor relations at RAH that p
234 PlanesNTrains : Interesting. While I'm not saying it's smart, it seems that plenty of carriers over time have chosen to configure their aircraft in a manner that all
235 Post contains links NorCal : The pilots flying the E-190s for starters, look at their wages compared to B6 to fly the exact same plane. B6 also has better work rules. Baggage han
236 Loggat : An expedited grievance was filed not long after the introduction of the 99(100) seat aircraft, the arbitration has taken place and we are waiting to
237 NorCal : Like I said before he doesn't have to pay industry leading rates, but he should pay competitive rates. IMO if he keeps running RAH with the same noti
238 PlanesNTrains : Good luck with that. By definition, everyone can't be above industry average, and if someone is going to above, it probably isn't going to be a regio
239 USPIT10L : Great quote. Every airline executive should have that posted on the wall of their office as a reminder of how to do business. I'm afraid Gordon Bethu
240 Cubsrule : How do we know that that's the appropriate pay scale He has shown evidence that he doesn't want to give raises now. Has he shown any evidence that he
241 Mariner : Okay, let them think that. Given all he has on his plate, I think you are being purposely miserable, but I don't expect objectivity here. Yep. And th
242 NorCal : Can you offer any reason why it isn't? Why is RAH's current wages appropriate? The pilots and FA's now have the well being of more passengers in thei
243 Mariner : That really gives me the first class sh*ts. Really. In your world, once a regional CEO, always a regional CEO. No one can change, no one can be aspir
244 NorCal : Let's not care what the employees think? Great attitude! I don't expect any objectivity from you, no matter what BB does you always back every single
245 NorCal : Maybe when he stops doing things like deferring seat belts and cutting off the top of a pay scale then we can say he's changed. Actions speak louder
246 Post contains links Boydatageek : Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 228): You really think Sean Menke was that attached to a name? No,he wouldn't quit because of the name, he would if he thoug
247 Mariner : I have never claimed objectivity. I am avowedly partisan, I make no secret of it. I thought everyone knew that about me. LOL. I want to see this expe
248 Cubsrule : No, although in other contexts, we might say that any freely bargained contract represents the market price. But why pay more than you have to if you
249 Atlwest1 : Well this is the foundation the ground level of building a successful company. Now is the time to rally the people and come together. Yes we are in a
250 Mariner : I agree, wholeheartedly. I believe (?) they are working on it. I don't expect them to achieve what even Norcal has described as extremely difficult o
251 Atlwest1 : Coool I will say this am im sure you will agree this is an intresting time and story in aviation. I think the definite physical face of all the chang
252 NorCal : Yes it does and BB's actions haven't really shown an interest in coming to the dance floor. The teamsters at RAH wanted to negotiate a new pay scale
253 Mariner : I guess you didn't get the message that I am a strong union man - a very long way to the left of center. I do understand the RLA and the process. But
254 NorCal : If you do then you should know that this: is impossible. A union operating under the RLA can't just go on strike. A union must be released by the NMB
255 Mariner : I just said it is a process. If they are so unhappy, begin the process. The longest journey, etc.... I have no idea what you are trying to achieve by
256 NorCal : Just pointing out to others on this thread it isn't a simple process and that the table is really slanted in management's favor. There have been RAH
257 Mariner : You seem to take the view that because something is difficult there is no point in attempting it. That's never been a recipe for success. mariner
258 Lrdc9 : Indeed employee relations is no small bit, and neither is the customer relationship it leads to. BB really has the opportunity to do something revolu
259 Post contains images Mariner : Whitewashing? We are told - by a Repubic pilot? - that the 99 seat issue has gone to expedited arbitration. Since I don't know the results of that ar
260 NorCal : Well if I'm an employee at RAH do I want to wait around for a process that *might* give me a better QOL years down the road, or do I jump ship when I
261 Lrdc9 : The whole issue of employee pay and relations. Not specifically E190 arbitration. Although I don't have high hopes for the outcome on that. I am real
262 Lrdc9 : Throughout 2010, we will be continuing our work to mix and match the best features of Midwest Airlines and our sister airline, Frontier, to offer you
263 Mariner : You jump ship. I don't have a problem with that. I prefer it to sitting around bemoaning your wretched fate. Or you get activist. I'm sure he does. B
264 Loggat : Just for the record, these are not the new payscales the Union requested from the company. Years 1-4 are our ACTUAL payrates as of this day. The Unio
265 Lrdc9 : If BB was being proactive with the employees this wouldn't have to go to arbitration. I think the point is that to build positive employee relations
266 Mariner : Let's see: We know the that a number of Midwest staff are happy with the pay raises they just got. We know that management has taken onboard the deep
267 Lrdc9 : I did not say that. However employee issue are something I do not give people leeway on. Like I said, if BB was really committed to building a happy
268 Mariner : Oh - you told me I was hanging on to only "tiny" scraps of good news. Would you say, for example, that Republic should have hired the Midwest pilots
269 NorCal : Bedford has been given opportunities to start on the path that Kelleher and Bethune went down, so far his actions have shown he doesn't want to go th
270 Lrdc9 : I think it was clear I was talking about cheap in the context of employee pay. I am not familier with FR's employee relations, but they certainly are
271 Mariner : Then, as I say, get get stronger union leaders. LOL. People always sued to say that about me - a lot - when Frontier was just Frontier and that I was
272 Lrdc9 : Stronger union leaders won't help a system that is built around management. As was pointed out earlier, APA has some very strong leaders, but the sys
273 Mariner : I think that is simply defeatist. My experience of unions goes back a very long way - and against some overtly antagonistic employers - and I have ne
274 NorCal : It has nothing to do with union leaders but the process that unions must go through to get what they want. The teamsters could have APA's militant le
275 KingCavalier : For those that believe YX is the better brand and should be the surviving brand I have a few questions. YX has, in fact, won numerous awards for in-fl
276 NorCal : What can the APA or the Teamsters legally do to force management's hand? Do you have any experience working for an airline union under the RLA?
277 TVNWZ : Using the collective bargaining agreement disputes procedure is very committed. It is why it is there. No ambiguity. Outside party decides. I have al
278 Mariner : I seem to be repeating myself a great deal in this thread. Okay, it could take a long time to accomplish. The alternative is that people either jump
279 JA : Wall Street considers FR and WN to be leaders of the discount airline industry. They are treated (to some extent) as peers. There are too many people
280 FRNT787 : You certainly are not the only one, I agree completely. Honestly, there should be a lot of people in the RAH family that are VERY unhappy with the wa
281 Boydatageek : Simple answer -- No. As much as anything, the success of Midwest has not neen about the seats, planes, or even the cookies. It has been a focus on th
282 PlanesNTrains : Well, that's great. Can you give some more examples of this as well? I only ask because I notice that one or two airlines - out of all of them - keep
283 MASTYC : JetBlue, AirTran, Horizon, Alaska. Frontier had good wages as well. Furthermore, if there was an issue with employees, it was handled quickly, not ig
284 PlanesNTrains : I'll speak to Alaska, as I have family working there. Anyone remember Menzies? My sister-in-law is an f/a with Alaska, and there has been plenty of d
285 Mariner : If you believe that, then those groups should unionize as quickly as possible. mariner
286 MASTYC : The FAs have a 99% chance of being unionized either by force or election and are frozen from RAH's touch right now because of unionization activity.
287 Lrdc9 : They don't have to be part of the dysfunction. They have a fantastic opportunity to remove themselves right now. He also has the luxery of steady cas
288 Mariner : And obviously, nor have I. I am deeply disturbed by this developing legend that everything was hunky-dory at Frontier prior to Republic - or even the
289 NorCal : It's a Republic thread why should I talk about other scrooges of the industry, especially when BB isn't the worst offender in the regional world? Peo
290 FRNT787 : And they have not changed since RAH acquired them. Nobody received a paycut after Oct. 1st. ...and it is often pushed by those who claimed F9 would n
291 Mariner : I'll try again. How many years was it since old Frontier turned an annual profit? It is one thing to buy industrial peace, but the employer also need
292 FlyPNS1 : If you look back at some of your own posts, it would appear that even you bought into some of that legend. Not to mention the near deification of Men
293 PlanesNTrains : You are responding to a response. And no, I don't. That wasn't the point. Exactly. I understand and respect your position. But if you think so much o
294 Mariner : Which legend? That it was a terrific airline doing some extremely interesting things? Yes, it sure was. I stand by everything I wrote. Show me a post
295 NorCal : I don't know but I'm guessing not very many. However they cut wages across the board during BK to address the problem. One of those cuts for example
296 Mariner : Old Frontier lost money in 2003 ($22 million), made a small profit in 2004 ($12 million), and lost money every year after that. Look at the history o
297 PlanesNTrains : Hopefully by this time next year, we'll have a single unified airline with happy employees who are being compensated fairly for doing a great job runn
298 Post contains links Mariner : On which note, and because this thread is at almost 300 posts (so soon?) please find the continuation of it here: New Frontier/Midwest - #2 (by Marin
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