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UPS 777F Or 330F Which One?  
User currently offlineUpsphl From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12586 times:

I was wondering IF anybody had any info ON ups picking one OF these freighter's. I HEARD THREW my job that ups IS buying 2 777F but I cant find any hard evidence

[Edited 2010-01-20 09:54:32 by upsphl]

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12577 times:

I doubt if UPS is buying the 777F that they'd only buy 2. Stranger things have happened though. I think with their acquisition of new 744Fs that they'd buy something as close in lift as the 777F, so I think they'll go with the A330F. The A330F would work very well with UPS, though I'd like to see many more 777Fs ordered.


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 369 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12508 times:

I guess that UPS will be launch customer of converted 777s. IIRC Boeing wants to launch a 777BCF-program. SQ has begun phasing out their 777-200, in the next few years there will be lots of 777s available. They are perfect for domestic high-density routes and likely a replacement at least of some UPS-MD11s.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30406 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12378 times:
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Well 5X has MD-11Fs and A300-600RFs that would eventually need to be replaced.

The A300-600RF lifts 49 tons 3700km and offers 374 cubic meters of capacity. The 767-300F 5X has been adding offer more performance across the board, lifting 54 tons 6025km and offering 438 cubic meters of volume.

The A330-200 lifts 64t 7400km or 69t 5900km and offers 475 cubic meters of volume. So it would be a large step up from the A306RF and a solid step up from the 763F. However, it is much smaller than the MD-11F which lifts 92 tons 7200km and offers 610 cubic meters of capacity.

The most likely replacement for that model will be a freighter based on the 777. The 777F lists 104t 9000km and offers 633 cubic meters of volume. We don't have hard data on the 777BCFs, but one can expect similar volume and Boeing projects that a 777-200BCF would be able to lift around 68t 4600km and a 777-200ERBCF 80t 7400km.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12333 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Well 5X has MD-11Fs and A300-600RFs that would eventually need to be replaced.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that many of the A300s are relatively young new builds, so UPS has time yet.

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 3):
I guess that UPS will be launch customer of converted 777s.

Perhaps. My guess would be that the 777BCF would be more costly to operate than the A330, but it is larger and a lower acquisition cost can make up for a lot.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineUpsphl From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12317 times:

nothing serious just there dispatch rate is the worse in the fleet they have alot of maintanice issue. everyone of ups md-11's are used.

User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12238 times:



Quoting Upsphl (Thread starter):
I was wondering IF anybody had any info ON ups picking one OF these freighter's. I HEARD THREW my job that ups IS buying 2 777F but I cant find any hard evidence

Hey no offense but I have worked as a Ramp Supervisor for most air carriers and if you heard this rumor through the grape vine then UPS is definitely not getting 777's. When I was with FedEx from 2002-2005 I used to hear all the rumors that it was a done deal that we (FX) was picking up the 734's from USAirways to replace the 722's. Rumor's are just that, rumors. I know that my dad works for UPS too and they don't just leak out information like that.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Well 5X has MD-11Fs and A300-600RFs that would eventually need to be replaced.

Hardly on the A300's, they are some of the newest aircraft in the fleet with the oldest maybe being 10 years old.

FX1816


User currently offlineUpsphl From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12202 times:

are fleet of a300's are the newest getting new ones up to 2007 and 2008 the last one we got tail 174 is the newest. we are not getting anymore and there are no planes to phase out the A300'S anytime soon.

User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12200 times:



Quoting FX1816 (Reply 8):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Well 5X has MD-11Fs and A300-600RFs that would eventually need to be replaced.

Hardly on the A300's, they are some of the newest aircraft in the fleet with the oldest maybe being 10 years old.

Stitch said "eventually". He's correct. Every airplane will 'eventually' need to be replaced.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
My guess would be that the 777BCF would be more costly to operate than the A330, but it is larger and a lower acquisition cost can make up for a lot.

Not to mention a 777ER/BCF would be much cheaper to operate than MD-11s as well would carry far more payload than the A330F and be much cheaper to acquire.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineJreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12131 times:

Does Boeing have a conversion program in place for the future to convert 777's into freighters?

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12273 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12124 times:



Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 3):
I guess that UPS will be launch customer of converted 777s. IIRC Boeing wants to launch a 777BCF-program. SQ has begun phasing out their 777-200, in the next few years there will be lots of 777s available. They are perfect for domestic high-density routes and likely a replacement at least of some UPS-MD11s.

I think eventually 777s will be the replacement for MD11s, but also it seems 5X has 33
of Boeing 767-300F and 26 more on order.

I also think most companies will wait till 777-200ERs are cheaply available, more so 5X than FX since FX is mostly hauling packages whereas 5X has more bulk to fly.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30406 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12097 times:
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Quoting Jreuschl (Reply 11):
Does Boeing have a conversion program in place for the future to convert 777's into freighters?

They are in the process of developing one.


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 11903 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 10):
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 8):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Well 5X has MD-11Fs and A300-600RFs that would eventually need to be replaced.

Hardly on the A300's, they are some of the newest aircraft in the fleet with the oldest maybe being 10 years old.

Stitch said "eventually". He's correct. Every airplane will 'eventually' need to be replaced.

Ok you get me on that one, yes they will "eventually" need replacing but Stitch pointed out the MD-11's (which are somewhat old) and the A300's which are not old at all. I mean heck they have 757's (older PW powered ones) that are over 20 years old, even the oldest 767's they have are approaching 13-14 years old.

FX1816


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11800 times:



Quoting FX1816 (Reply 8):
Well 5X has MD-11Fs and A300-600RFs that would eventually need to be replaced.

Hardly on the A300's, they are some of the newest aircraft in the fleet with the oldest maybe being 10 years old.

The oldest UPS A300 was delivered in July 2000 and the youngest in August 2006, so all 53 are between 3.5 and 9.5 years old.


User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7172 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11764 times:
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After they bring back the furloughs, take the stored a/c out of moth balls, and run a few thousand more cycles through their current fleet; 77F.  twocents 

User currently offlineUpsphl From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11646 times:

the a300 fleet is a good one for ups there reliable they can hold good amount of payload i put about 85,000 to almost 100,000 worth of payload on them off the twi sort up here in philly.

User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4808 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11516 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Boeing projects that a 777-200BCF would be able to lift around 68t 4600km and a 777-200ERBCF 80t 7400km.

I ran a back check for the -200ERBCF and came up with a similar number. They would need to increase the MZFW from 195t to about 215t to allow full volume for a package operator similar to FX. This is somewhat less than the spread of 39t between the 77L and 77F. This would put the MZFW range at about 4300nm which fits the CAN-ANC sector of 4400nm rather well.


User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5282 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9601 times:

I know very little about P2F conversions... what causes the dramatic differences in max payload between the P2F and the dedicated freighter?

If a 772ERF could lift closer to 90 tonnes, even over a shorter range, it would be a more convincing MD-11F replacement. As is, it's more of a DC-10-30 replacement or an A330F competitor.

I know the max payload difference between passenger 77Ls and 77Es is not nearly that big.

[Edited 2010-01-20 18:33:58]


Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30406 posts, RR: 84
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9488 times:
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Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 18):
I know very little about P2F conversions... what causes the dramatic differences in max payload between the P2F and the dedicated freighter?

Part of it is the floor structure. Dedicated freighters have stronger floors able to take heavier loads. The floors are reinforced on P2F conversions, but they often are not as strong as a dedicated freighter floor.


User currently offlineUpsphl From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8889 times:

im new to this im still trying to learn all the terms can someone tell me what mzfw means thank you..

User currently offlineFxra From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 704 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8800 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
I also think most companies will wait till 777-200ERs are cheaply available, more so 5X than FX since FX is mostly hauling packages whereas 5X has more bulk to fly.

I disagree. I think FDX has a much more substantial heavyweight operation than UPS.

Quoting Upsphl (Reply 15):
the a300 fleet is a good one for ups there reliable they can hold good amount of payload i put about 85,000 to almost 100,000 worth of payload on them off the twi sort up here in philly.

The A300 is more reliable than the MD-11... which doesn't say a whole lot. it's still a finicky airplane and they tend to run out of A300's on the outbound from SDF.

UPS will pick up a 777 when it's proved financially advantageous. Which means they will watch the neighbors in MEM and see if there's a need for a long haul twin.



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30406 posts, RR: 84
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8765 times:
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Quoting Upsphl (Reply 19):
im new to this im still trying to learn all the terms can someone tell me what mzfw means thank you..

MZFW = Maximum Zero Fuel Weight.


User currently offlineUpsphl From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8693 times:

@stitch thanks alot. the a300 fleet is way more reliable then the md-11 at ups. the a300 is a work horse for us but it cant hold as much as an md-11 as far as payloads and positions. i know ups is gonna look for an alternative to md-11 in the next few years.

User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7172 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8575 times:
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Is 5X going to buy these a/c with the money they save from their upcoming furloughs?

User currently offlineUpsphl From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8532 times:

@fxramper what you mean upcoming furloughs?

25 Ups757 : We had a 117,300 payload on A300 from MHR to SDF last week.
26 Upsphl : @ups757 thats great huge payload for a 300 im up in philly since they took down are florida flights my next day air flight to sdf has blown capacity e
27 Jeffry747 : The MD-11 is the most busted plane in the fleet. Never a night goes by at SDF when we don't have to swap MD-11s because at least one of them is too b
28 SunriseValley : Sounds like business is improving ! Is this by volume or by weight? Do you have a typical density figure and space use efficiency ratio that you use?
29 NA : Thats possible, although I dont see them in a haste unless they suddenly feel they have not enough upper midsize aircraft. They have many MD11Fs (for
30 Daysleeper : I was just reading about the plans for the A400M to have a civilian type certificate and got thinking..... Has any civilian cargo carrier ever used ex
31 KingFriday013 : Except the DC-9. Those things are just gonna keep flying forever I think one or two airlines might have had C-130s at some point. Maybe Delta? I don'
32 Revelation : They are buying new planes right now - 767-300Fs. Money talks, bullsh_t walks!
33 CMB56 : UPS is in the process of taking delivery of 27 new 767-300Fs. The #3 of these delivers this week. UPS has also bought four 747-400s from CargoLux, two
34 Upsphl : @jeffry747 do you work on the ramp in sdf?
35 Upsphl : Sounds like business is improving ! Is this by volume or by weight? Do you have a typical density figure and space use efficiency ratio that you use?
36 Stitch : Continental Air Services, a subsidiary of Continental Airlines created to support CIA operations in Vietnam and Laos, did operate the civilian versio
37 Post contains links N14AZ : There was an entire nice thread about this: Airlines Using Military Types For Cargo Ops (by Gulfstream650 Sep 1 2009 in Civil Aviation)
38 Zeke : Those payloads are not really relevant for a package carrier, they tend to always cube out, hence why I think you will see an A330-300 based freighte
39 Stitch : Which is why I included cargo volume, as well. Unfortunately, Boeing didn't say how they came up with those projections...
40 Daysleeper : Is that what the film "Air America" was about? I think the last time I saw that film I was about 10 years old - I loved it for the flying but never f
41 BMI727 : Many airlines used surplus DC-3s and DC-4s (and other types) even up until the 60s. There are probably a few still working hard out there. I think so
42 Stitch : That sounds about right. The cargo volume for an MD-11F is 610 cubic meters. For a 757-200F it's 239m3 and for an A300-600RF it's 374m3, so that woul
43 Cloudyapple : I think rather than an either or situation it's how many of each type and when. The A388F was a stillborn whereas the A332F is up and flying. And the
44 Stitch : UPS does have plenty of 767s coming, which will allow them to replace their older 767s and complement their newer A306s. So the MD-11F makes sense as
45 IVO : Volume for A330-200: 336m3 A330-300: 414,6m3 Airbus is working on a p2f conversion. Ivo
46 Upsphl : yes the MD-11 has the worst dispatch rate it is not uncommon on a next day air sort to have multiple md-11 out of service which can cause major issues
47 FX1816 : Well since the oldest UPS 763 is between 12-13 years old I highly doubt that these new ones will be a replacement for "older" ones. FX1816
48 413X3 : I wouldn't think the 747 would be higher than the A300, I would think it would be top of the list.
49 PITrules : The next fleet to be replaced will be the P&W 757s. As the newer 767s arrive, they will idle more and more 757s (there already are some on the sideli
50 Stitch : Well yes, they'll run them into the ground just to maximize the cycles out of them. So I suppose everything is just for expansion right now?
51 413X3 : Why would they get rid of an engine type just because of a few high altitude airports? That doesn't make sense
52 SeaBosDca : Twice as many engines means twice as much probability of engine problems, for one thing...
53 PITrules : Because they have too many 757s, so if they are going to get rid of some you get rid of the less capable ones.
54 Boeingfever777 : Yeah didn't yo know. They are going to have ghost pilots to fly the a/c. What he is talking about is that 5X and the IPA had to come to an agreement
55 FXramper : They could take all the negative density in the 744F and prolly get enough metal to build some 77Fs?
56 ATA L1011 : I'm curious to how the 763F has more cargo volume than the A332F and the A306F according some post here as they are wider etc etc. Does it have anythi
57 Boeingfever777 : 767-300ERF 24 pallets* (main deck) + 30 LD2s (lower deck)[2] *accepts 88" × 125" pallets only; freighter aircraft a330-200F 9 AMA containers + 4 pal
58 FX1816 : Well since you're going to be a smart a** about it that is not what I said. I only brought up the point of them not being that old and there are A/C
59 Zeke : One of the most misleading posts of all time, looking at that one would think the 763F carries more. The pallets and containers you mention on the 76
60 Post contains links Upsphl : ups aircraft configures for the 767 and 300 767-3f holds 24 88w by 125l by 80.75h (main deck) or 11 96w by 125l by 96h (main deck) 7 88w by 125l by 64
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