Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AR A340 Grounded In AKL Since 21st Jan  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 19890 times:

According to press in Argentina, AR 1183 AKL-EZE A340 (LV-ZPO) which was supposed to depart on Thursday 21 January had technical problems and returned to AKL and remains grounded in AKL after 2 days. As a result 250 pax are stranded in AKL. AR states that it had rebooked pax with LAN and QF however local media reports that only 40 pax arrived EZE so far (2 days after the technical problem) and more than 200 pax are still stranded in AKL after 48h of the problem.

Many of the 250 pax could not leave AKL airport for hotels because they had no visa and therefore had to stay inside the terminal building.

AR sent about 14 staff to AKL to try and repair the aircraft but aircraft remains grounded so far. The problem had been reported in one of the four engines (CFM56-5C2) of the aircraft and efforts had been made by AR to lease one engine from AF (cost of USD4000 per day). AR also considered removing one engine from an aircraft currently under maintenance in Brazil (LV-BIT).

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=1225082

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2010/01/23/sociedad/s-02125431.htm

Rgs,

[Edited 2010-01-23 12:39:38 by hardiwv]

95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline767ER From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 1092 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 19788 times:

ARs performance on EZE AKL SYD is nothing short of abysmal. Flights are constantly delayed and communication is non existent; Let's not even discuss their in flight service, or lack thereof.

Those poor pax stuck in AKL.



Aircraft flown:F27,Viscount. EMB120, SAAB340, ATR70, 737-200.737-300,DC8, DC10,747-100,747-200,747-300,747-400, A320, A3
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 19786 times:

This is a pic of the aircraft LV-ZPO



Rgs,


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2990 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 19681 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Many of the 250 pax could not leave AKL airport for hotels because they had no visa and therefore had to stay inside the terminal building.

If this were true, and the pax had been in the terminal for 48 hours, it would be all over the AKL media. There's nothing, so I suspect this part of the story is garbage.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 19684 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 3):
If this were true, and the pax had been in the terminal for 48 hours, it would be all over the AKL media. There's nothing, so I suspect this part of the story is garbage.

This is not garbage because the 40 pax which arrived in EZE as mentioned above the majority of them were those with visa problem. AR gave priority to those with visa problem and kids when rebooking. The media even mentions the case of a 82y elder lady who had no visa and had to overnight inside AKL terminal.

Rgs,

[Edited 2010-01-23 13:02:58 by hardiwv]

User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 19675 times:

you guys should see the pics of the inside of the engine....
It's F******


User currently offlineA300 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19339 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Could the aircraft been ferried on three engines only, perhaps over a longer route that avoids the long over water route the usually fly?


Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
User currently offlineAerorobNZ From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19212 times:

It will leave tuesday at the earliest.

User currently offlineAjd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19199 times:



Quoting A300 (Reply 6):
Could the aircraft been ferried on three engines only, perhaps over a longer route that avoids the long over water route the usually fly?

Not really, between AKL and Argentina there is nothing but water. Literally....


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2439 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 19124 times:



Quoting A300 (Reply 6):
Could the aircraft been ferried on three engines only, perhaps over a longer route that avoids the long over water route the usually fly?



Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 8):
Not really, between AKL and Argentina there is nothing but water. Literally....

Can an empty A343 operate safely with only 2 engines? If so, 3 engines is more than enough to cross the Southern Pacific no?

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6899 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 19003 times:



Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 5):
you guys should see the pics of the inside of the engine....
It's F******

We'd like to; can you post them?



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineCrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 18860 times:

I don't know what it is about AR, but on my recent flight out of EZE on AA, I was looking at the departure board and AR had 5 long haul flights scheduled to depart within the next few hours. I believe the destinations were SYD, MIA, FCO, BCN, and MAD. All 5 flights were significantly delayed, some by only 3-4 hours and on or two by as many as around 10 hours.

User currently offlineThegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 18727 times:



Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
Can an empty A343 operate safely with only 2 engines? If so, 3 engines is more than enough to cross the Southern Pacific no?

That would depend on fuel loads. I'm sure it could get as far as PPT and probably IPC. But I don't think the regulators would like it, so it probably won't happen in spite of maybe being a good idea.

Getting to AKL-EZE on QF requires something of a backtrack to SYD. I wouldn't be too happy. I guess these are the problems with very infrequent flights to far destinations


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11437 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 18544 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
I don't know what it is about AR, but on my recent flight out of EZE on AA, I was looking at the departure board and AR had 5 long haul flights scheduled to depart within the next few hours. I believe the destinations were SYD, MIA, FCO, BCN, and MAD. All 5 flights were significantly delayed, some by only 3-4 hours and on or two by as many as around 10 hours

That shoud be AR priority not today, but many months ago! Put the fleet in conditions where delays like that would not happen. For sure they lost a lot of premium revenue because of how reliable they are right now.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently onlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5320 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 18313 times:

This is nothing new for AR! As above flights nearly always are late!

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
Can an empty A343 operate safely with only 2 engines? If so, 3 engines is more than enough to cross the Southern Pacific no?

This is a 342 and getting that airbourne on 3 engines let alone 2 or 4 for that matter is hard enough, even if it ferried via PPT and whereever. AKL-EZE is close to 12 hours non stop!


User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 18059 times:



Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 14):
This is a 342 and getting that airbourne on 3 engines let alone 2 or 4 for that matter is hard enough, even if it ferried via PPT and whereever. AKL-EZE is close to 12 hours non stop!

I suspect that the size and weight difference (being lighter) than a 343 would mean that it would have a better chance of making the trip on three engines than its larger brethren, having the same engines. But it's still asking a lot, I suppose.


User currently onlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5320 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 17988 times:



Quoting Irobertson (Reply 15):
I suspect that the size and weight difference (being lighter) than a 343 would mean that it would have a better chance of making the trip on three engines than its larger brethren, having the same engines. But it's still asking a lot, I suppose.

I can't see how it would be certified to take off with a full tank off fuel for a 12 hour flight which would take a bit longer on 3 engines anyway, weather it had PAX or not.


User currently offlineAerorobNZ From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 17838 times:



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):
We'd like to; can you post them?

Unfortunately not. They're not for release outside the company. I'd love to. I think it's fascinating.


User currently offlineRudy737 From Canada, joined Sep 2009, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 17477 times:

I watch an AR A342 land at AKL on Fri Jan 22nd. Must have been around 6pm or so, was waiting to board NZ6 to LAX. Did they fly in another aircraft?

User currently offline77west From New Zealand, joined Jun 2009, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17155 times:

A340-200 or -300 can hardly takeoff on 4 engines, I think on 3 they would not leave the ground.


77West
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11437 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17076 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting 77west (Reply 20):
A340-200 or -300 can hardly takeoff on 4 engines, I think on 3 they would not leave the ground.

That's what i tough. Plus, i doubt any crew would fly an A340-200 on such a distant flight with 3 engines only.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 16856 times:



Quoting 77west (Reply 20):
A340-200 or -300 can hardly takeoff on 4 engines, I think on 3 they would not leave the ground.

If the plane is flying light (I mean just fuel and flight crew), then a three-engine takeoff on an A342/A343 should be no problem. Besides, those aircraft should also have certain provisions for engine-out situations. I sincerely doubt that Airbus would build an aircraft, regardless of whether it's a twin or a quad, that cannot properly perform in an engine-out scenario, otherwise neither FAA nor EASA would have certified the first generation A340 as airworthy and for commercial service.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 879 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 16538 times:



Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 8):
Not really, between AKL and Argentina there is nothing but water. Literally....

Which includes 'the point furtherest from land'.

Perhaps Air Tahiti Nui could help out with a few charters to clear pax. They did some Ministry of Defence charters from Brize Norton to the Falklands when FlyGlobespan ceased operations.

PA515


User currently offlinePurpleBox From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16256 times:



Quoting PA515 (Reply 23):
Perhaps Air Tahiti Nui could help out with a few charters to clear pax. They did some Ministry of Defence charters from Brize Norton to the Falklands when FlyGlobespan ceased operations.

Their's always ZK-NBT...



Next Flights:STH-ATH-STN (A3), BHX-INV-BHX(BE), LCY-FRA-BOG(LH), EZE-FRA-LHR(LH)
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 16021 times:



Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 3):
If this were true, and the pax had been in the terminal for 48 hours, it would be all over the AKL media. There's nothing, so I suspect this part of the story is garbage.

Funny strong reaction on the subject. I wish I read the same denial reaction when we supposedly "locked and starved" no-visa Indian pax at CDG after tech failure and supposed abuse was reported all over

Quoting 77west (Reply 20):
A340-200 or -300 can hardly takeoff on 4 engines, I think on 3 they would not leave the ground.

 Big grin  bigthumbsup  Old discussion, but it's true I don't want to be in an A343 the day they take off with one engine out, it is slow enough on 4 hairdryers

Quoting PA515 (Reply 23):
They did some Ministry of Defence charters from Brize Norton to the Falklands when FlyGlobespan ceased operations.

Thanks! that explains why the other day we had a Tahiti Nui plane at CDG that was coming from Brize Norton: I had no idea what it meant



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
25 Post contains images Hardiwv : Perhaps you could release just one picture of the engine?   This was another flight, AR1182 EZE-AKL arrives in AKL on Sundays, Fridays, Thursdays, W
26 PA515 : True. An A342 short for at least 5 days is quite a few disrupted pax. A potential reroute for Australian pax would be via JNB, but peak season that w
27 Hardiwv : It seems the weekend was very difficult for AR with long delays for flights to FCO, BCN and MIA in addition to another long delay on the charter to PU
28 LTBEWR : There is mention of other flight delays of AR. Could their be a mx operations problem, perhaps a problem with engines like those involved with the a/c
29 PlymSpotter : I have been, and I can confirm that it's not pretty Doesn't AR have any spare longhaul capacity - what about the 747-200s I thought they still had ab
30 Post contains links Hardiwv : 30% of AR fleet is grounded - 21 aircraft out of a total of 73 are grounded due to various issues such as maintenance. In addition, another widebody
31 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Huh???          I'm a former kiwi living in Canada. I read pretty widely, but I must admit I don't read Indian newspapers. I do occasionally re
32 Hardiwv : He must be on denial. The other AR flight left 24h after the emergency landing which entailed that about 40 pax or so had to stay inside the terminal
33 Post contains links and images Varig md-11 : Neither do I read indian press at breakfast   But I am referring to a discussion on this forum with a similar incident at CDG involving AF flight wi
34 Kaiarahi : Up to you if you believe Argentinian press, who weren't there, or N.Z. Immigration Service, who were, and N.Z. press who didn't report any such thing
35 Post contains links Clydenairways : Most 4 engine aircraft that i know are approved to do 3 engine ferry flights, i don't see the A340 being any different. Altitude restrictions usually
36 Hardiwv : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtFGv...x3x_0 The problem here is that we are not aware how the other 3 engines are. Considering such
37 LongHauler : A 3 engine ferry flight, (no passengers, only crew), would have performance restrictions placed on it. These restrictions would be predicated on the
38 TheCommodore : Again, your wrong. As I said, relatives have told me, yesterday Australian time , that it was reported in the AKL news. so PLEASE STOP saying its a l
39 Clydenairways : Why would you assume that? If the aeroplane flew into a large flock of birds or through volcanic ash then maybe other engines may be affected but if
40 Zeke : The aircraft could be ferried on 3, the overwater segment is not really a concern, no pax would be carried, it is essentially a non revenue "private"
41 TheCommodore : [quote=Varig md-11,reply=33]But I am referring to a discussion on this forum with a similar incident at CDG involving AF flight with non-visa Indian p
42 Kaiarahi : Source? My source is NZ Immigration Service manager at AKL. Nope, but see above. Nope. Try checking out my profile.
43 TheCommodore : I would expect that your source is right then, but I can tell you that it must have been in the press because my brother in law told me about it befo
44 PlymSpotter : That's a pretty bad situation to be in during the peak travel period.
45 TheCommodore : Kaiarahi News talk zb radio were reporting yesterday the some passengers were kept at AKL international airport due to visa requirements.(or lack of)
46 LHR380 : In the UK, if a passenger does not have a visa but has to stay overnight due to a miscon or canx of a flight, unless the the IMM officials have a reas
47 Post contains links Kaiarahi : OK. They don't have much on their website: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nznewsdetail1.asp?storyID=169601 I was responding to the OP which suggested that
48 Cchan : Is there a more detailed description of the engine condition? Thanks.
49 Hardiwv : What what the cause of the malfunction of engine 1? This is well known at this point. No, post 5 and 7 has pics but cannot release. In the case of AM
50 Post contains links Hardiwv : According to more reports, what led to many pax become stranded in AKL (+200 pax were still stranded after 3 days of the problem) is the fact that AR
51 PA515 : Did not realise AR had been suspended from the IATA Clearing House, they clearly have significant cash flow problems. Airlines often have bilateral a
52 Kaiarahi : Because the plane landed at 2230 and N.Z. immigration couldn't process visa issues until AR had sorted out how the pax would be rebooked.
53 TBYO787 : AR doesn't have an Interline agreement with LA nor QF. So I assume they pay for the tickets for the passengers with visa problems and lets the rest to
54 Hardiwv : There is a big fight between AR and its local maintenance unit which is againts sending airplanes abroad for maintenance. This specific A340 in TAPME
55 Cchan : Or could it be that AR doesn't have the cash to pay the hotels?
56 AerorobNZ : yeah, more to the point probably. Nationalities Brazil,Argentina,Chile & Uruguay (the huge majority of AR flights) according to timatic..."VISA REQUI
57 AAEXP : So, what's the latest on this story?
58 AerorobNZ : the engine is being flown in from Singapore either late today or tomorrow on the SQ 74F
59 Post contains links PA515 : Checked www.auckland-airport.co.nz but it does not show freighters on the arrivals/departures. Hardiwv, are you able to change the thread title to '5
60 MD11junkie : Clap trap non-sense. There's cash, but if the legal requirements are not met, no cash or voucher will save you - at least in NZ/AU. Finally some sens
61 Lufthansa : Thanks MD-11 junkie... I was really hoping you'd turn up because in the past you've been an excellent source of info re AR and related issues. So I ha
62 MD11junkie : Thanks! PM sent!
63 EZEIZA : I think it's fixed now but one of the 747's (LV-ALJ) hd to be repaired after some kind of damage due to one of the strong storms that have been hitti
64 MD11junkie : Yep, but LV-ALJ was not on schedule because it was out for one of the massive D-Checks, I think it was a D2, so no harm done. It took only a week. In
65 Lufthansa : What about if they stopped in Ushuaia for a fuel stop? It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for them to pick up a couple more 744's just to have some e
66 EZEIZA : But it could have helped to not have the other delays affected by the grounded 340 in AKL? there's another reason then for the big delays on these pa
67 AerorobNZ : then it came in the hold of an SQ passenger 777. I heard it being discussed.
68 DavidByrne : Shades of the former B747 operation EZE-AKL, which used to stop in Rio Gallegos (RGL) westbound only. RGL wasn't just a tech stop, however - I was on
69 Lufthansa : There are heaps of picts in the database of AR744s at Ushuaia plus some videos on youtube so it's definately long enough for 744 ops... question is,
70 Lufthansa : okay a quick look on wikipedia (not the most reliable source but anyway) shows USH 's runway to be at 2800M. So the big question is, is this enough fo
71 Zknza : I had a look at the number 1 engine yesterday, it is quite a mess. Not much going on yesterday as the engine and ancillary equipment had been removed
72 NZ107 : It usually does.. Just doesn't disclose it well. You just got to know that SQ6xxx is a freighter and some other strange callsigns with funny milk run
73 AerorobNZ : There was an SQ freighter that arrived about 1645 left about 2000 today...
74 Hardiwv : Thanks again for your insights. I cannot, but already sent a message to moderator to change the title. It seems the A340 inop in AKL is leading to sp
75 MD11junkie : Where that other A340 is, it's the very same subject of this thread. No, that is why I sent him a PM. It is. 2 A340s not flying have been pushing tin
76 Hardiwv : It must be top secret... I guess the the possible launch of POA-MIA must now be out of AR plans for the time being since the route would be operated
77 PA515 : Thanks. I guess the AR staff will be working through the night. PA515
78 AAEXP : What a secret.... The answer is quite obvious to me....
79 SCL767 : Too bad LV-BIT, (formerly 9Y-TGN) is currently in maintenance. It always had frequent maintenance issues when it was in service with BWIA/Caribbean A
80 AerorobNZ : No... just 3-4 flight days so far this month have been on time... LA better, but they've rescheduled a few this month as well but at least your reboo
81 MD11junkie : The airplane is fine and hasn't been a pain. TAPME employees dropped an engine to the floor, while the it was on a 2C check. The aircraft is one of t
82 LipeGIG : Probably. They have the approval since January 15 to begin EZE-POA-MIA with the A340's
83 Hardiwv : They must be working on the engine, any news? I think the engine which arrived with SQ is on lease from AF. You may connect in LAX with KE which mean
84 MD11junkie : Unfortunately, that was actually true. It was unfortunate, but not caused by lack of experience - rather than by faulty equipment, but the engine wil
85 Hardiwv : Perhaps the article included aircraft from Austral? It must have cause a loss for TAPME, but perhaps they have insurance. I was thinking the same abo
86 AerorobNZ : LV-ZPO leaves tonight as positioning AR1043 to EZE at 2350.
87 Hardiwv : Finally, it took an amazing 8 days to fix the engine! Thanks for the news. I remember an episode last year when KE had an engine problem with its B77
88 Post contains images MD11junkie : That actually makes sense. BUT. Austral has 20 airplanes, of which 16 are flying. 44 + 20 = 64. Not 73 as the article stated. However, reading the ar
89 Hardiwv : Gastón, thanks again for your precise information and insights. Plus the remote location (AKL) from AR base in EZE. Could you please elaborate? How
90 Hardiwv : I guess the airplace is on route to EZE. Could anyone confirm the airline took off from AKL? Rgs,
91 AerorobNZ : Yeah, it' left 'ontime' at the time I originally posted. Just pilots onboard. It almost ended up operating AR1183 because of a fault on the other air
92 Hardiwv : Thanks for posting and sharing the information. I think now AR scheduling will slowly come back to normal. Rgs,
93 AerorobNZ : As normal as it gets...within 2hours of schedule is good going...
94 Post contains links Viscount724 : AC had a 77W divert to Fairbanks, Alaska in September 2008 with an engine problem on a YYZ-ICN flight. The aircraft was out of service in FAI for 2 w
95 Hardiwv : I assume the work for AR was much more difficult considering the distance between EZE and AKL and the specifications of the engine to be found in the
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Arke Fly 767 Grounded In SNN After Security Divert posted Wed Jan 13 2010 06:02:32 by Clydenairways
Luthansa A340-600 In-seat IFE posted Wed Dec 23 2009 16:51:41 by PIAflyer
Philippine A340 Tech At LAS Since Friday posted Mon Jul 13 2009 18:58:49 by GARUDAROD
RJ A340 Was In BOI 7/8 posted Thu Jul 9 2009 11:04:39 by MtnWest1979
Qantas A380 Grounded In Los Angeles posted Mon Jan 26 2009 19:02:03 by Flyboysp
IATA Predicts 1st Fall In Traffic Since 1991 posted Mon Jan 5 2009 16:01:33 by Art
Southwest Schedules In CRS For DEC-JAN-can't Book? posted Thu May 22 2008 08:02:37 by REALDEAL
Nationwide Grounded In SA posted Tue Apr 29 2008 06:00:38 by BlooBirdie
Additional VS A340-300 In 2009 posted Mon Mar 3 2008 03:58:35 by Thomsonfly
Israel Aviation In The News Today/Jan 27 posted Sun Jan 27 2008 09:25:49 by Amirs