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HA To DFW, ORD, Or East Of The Mississippi?  
User currently offlineGlobalcabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4379 times:

There have been talks about HA (and QF) to start DFW, ORD, or other cities east of the Mississippi. Will this ever happen? AA is happy with DFW and resuming ORD-HNL. UA currently owns ORD-HNL/OGG and added the 744 during the holidays (ORD-HNL).

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2188 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4339 times:



Quoting Globalcabotage (Thread starter):
There have been talks about HA (and QF) to start DFW, ORD, or other cities east of the Mississippi. Will this ever happen? AA is happy with DFW and resuming ORD-HNL. UA currently owns ORD-HNL/OGG and added the 744 during the holidays (ORD-HNL).

With AA serving 2X daily flights DFW-HNL and 1X DFW-OGG, there is really no need to have HA come in and serve the market. The entire Hawaii region is well covered by AA and their codeshare with HA. From DFW, for inter-island routes not served directly (i.e. LIH, ITO, KOA, etc), HA is able to connect them, or they can connect via LAX on AA mainline. It's the same deal from ORD.

Also with US adding CLT-HNL and DL and CO already connecting Hawaii nonstop from their east coast hubs, I do not see anywhere else HA can feasibly expand east of the Mississippi.



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User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4312 times:



Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
I do not see anywhere else HA can feasibly expand east of the Mississippi.

Maybe they could make BWI or IAD work? Not necessarily daily but maybe 4xweekly service something leaving HNL at night getting you into DC area in the AM and the return getting you there during the day.



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User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9638 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4209 times:

Hawaiian is based on O/D traffic and that is larger from the west coast. The east coast and midwest have the option of Caribbean whereas the west coast is more prone to fly to Hawaii.

I don't see Hawaiian going east of the rocky mountains. The O/D severely drops off. The network carriers can use their hubs to generate O/D and connecting traffic. Hawaiian is at a disadvantage. However SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, PHX and other large cities on the west coast will be the bread and butter of HA.



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User currently offlinePohakuloa From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3999 times:

I believe that HA could venture into BWI, maybe IAD if BWI doesn't happen, and JFK. HA does do O&D almost exclusively, but they have been doing a great job at it (making profits quarterly or losing far less than it's competitors) where other airlines with connectivity and feeder routes continue to lose money at far greater rates. Also with few exceptions, HA has a better overall product (accounting for both economy and biz/first) than its domestic competitors. If/when HA expands, don't expect it to happen all at once. The higher ups are smart and cautious.


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User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3973 times:



Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
I do not see anywhere else HA can feasibly expand east of the Mississippi.



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, PHX and other large cities on the west coast will be the bread and butter of HA.

Actually, I do expect us to expand eastward. Of course people on the east coast will pick the Caribbean over Hawaii a majority of the time because it's closer. However CO does a fine job of filling up a 764 every day to HNL. And with 13+ Million people in the NY metro area, I'd bet we could fill 260 seats in a 763 daily too. The whole angle to entice people to fly us vs. going to the Caribbean would have to be our service of course, and that's something we've been working hard toward for years.

RoseFlyer is right that the west coast will be our primary source of passengers. However there's no reason we can't compete with the other airlines bring people out of cities east of the Mississippi.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3833 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 5):
The whole angle to entice people to fly us vs. going to the Caribbean would have to be our service of course, and that's something we've been working hard toward for years.

Wait. You're saying people on the east coast will choose to vacation in Hawaii instead of the Caribbean because of HA's in-flight service?


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

I expect HA to definitey serve JFK in the future, outside of that I'm not sure but my own speculation would be..

ORD, DEN, Texas (DFW or IAH)

Long shots would be;

SLC, IAD, BOS, STL, YYZ, MCO



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User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2188 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3458 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
I expect HA to definitey serve JFK in the future, outside of that I'm not sure but my own speculation would be..

ORD, DEN, Texas (DFW or IAH)

The hometown airlines at these megahubs would destroy HA. Not a chance.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Long shots would be;

SLC, IAD, BOS, STL, YYZ, MCO

SLC and YYZ already serve the market and cannot support more than one carrier. BOS and IAD maybe, MCO I don't see happening, and STL - not a chance.



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User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

As stated by someone before on the forum, the name of the first 330 will be "The Spirit of JFK"


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User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

I think that these destinations break down into two types: those where HA could certainly do okay alone and those that would really need feed to work well.

I think that ORD, New York, DEN (especially if F9 codeshares) and perhaps BOS and IAD could all work well without any codeshares or feed on the other end. Dallas and Houston would be there as well, but the AA and CO competition would make life rough for them.

There are a lot of other places where they could make it work, if they get a codeshare partner to provide some feed.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 8):
d STL - not a chance.

Certainly not on its own, but if somehow (purely hypothetical as far as I know) HA and WN started a codeshare, this route could work well. I don't know what the feeling about such an arrangement would be at WN in the wake of ATA.



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User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

I think a lot of the nay-sayers forget that we face extraordinary competition in our main markets as well. LAX, SFO, & SEA are all saturated by other airlines flying to Hawaii. Yet we still manage to fill our flights and make money, even without the feed. Give us a chance, and I bet we'd do fine at the larger eastern cities in the US.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineHelloGorgeous From China, joined Nov 2007, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

If HA were to expand east of the Mississippi, IAD would be HA’s best new market opportunity. The Washington Metro Area is Hawaii’s largest market without non-stop air service. The metro area is comprised of the top two counties in the US with the highest median household income : ).

HA will continue to increase long haul fleet utilization rates. Possible new route pairings include SEA-ANC and current west coast markets-South America (red eyes).

ICN is a certain new market. I believe HA will continue to build on MNL by adding connections with 5J. Picking up UA's unused route authority was a good move since PR couldn't add US frequencies. China and Japan are also likely. HA has a good team of ex US based airline execs who previously worked in Asia.


User currently offlineSoxfan From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 865 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

Could BOS potentially work with seasonal, non-daily service? The closest nonstop service we have to Hawaii (I believe) is CO's EWR-HNL.


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User currently offlineHelloGorgeous From China, joined Nov 2007, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3107 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 13):

BOS is a good market, but IAD has higher yields.


User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1764 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3060 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 5):
However CO does a fine job of filling up a 764 every day to HNL.

But how much of that traffic is connecting on to Micronesia?


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2969 times:



Quoting OP3000 (Reply 15):
But how much of that traffic is connecting on to Micronesia?

Very little actually. I don't have the exact figures since I don't work for CO, but one of my friends at HA lives near NYC and commutes often on the CO EWR-HNL flight (unless they're weight restricted). He says most of the people on the flight are going for work or vacation in Hawaii, with a very small number continuing on to Guam or other destinations on Micronesia. Of course this is merely an observation, but one from a trained airline employee who rides that route frequently. The same hold for another of our pilots who currently commutes from ATL, usually on the DL (NW) nonstop. Most of those passengers are not going beyond HNL. And if those airlines can fill an airliner daily from the east coast, so can HA.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2923 times:



Quoting Soxfan (Reply 13):
Could BOS potentially work with seasonal, non-daily service? The closest nonstop service we have to Hawaii (I believe) is CO's EWR-HNL.



Quoting HelloGorgeous (Reply 14):
BOS is a good market, but IAD has higher yields.

It doesn't seem like it would be viable, except maybe by a 787. BOS-HNL is 4421nm, longer than the 3350nm it is to FCO, the current longest route out of BOS. It's also all VFR. But if it is indeed viable, as some of you think (and I'm sure you all know better than me), then I would love to see it.



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User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2868 times:
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Waiting for HAL to give more exact information on what he thinks HA could do for expansion. UA doesn't really own ORD-Hawaii, fyi.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
1X DFW-OGG

2x daily very soon for AA.


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2811 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 18):
Waiting for HAL to give more exact information on what he thinks HA could do for expansion. UA doesn't really own ORD-Hawaii, fyi.


There have been a lot of options already mentioned above. But I think the real answer lies in the fact that we are not a large airline; we are only expecting three aircraft this year, and then just a few more each year starting in 2012. It's not like we'll be opening a new city each month. My guess is that management will be fairly selective in where we go, based on where they expect to get the best loads, cargo, and revenue from.

That said, I think the first new expansion won't come right away, but maybe in a year or so. And I think the short list would include ICN, JFK, HND (if we get the route), and maybe IAD. I would love to go go BOS, however the longest runway there is just over 10,000 feet long. For a 4400 mile route westbound against the winds, that's not really enough runway to be able to do it, even with the A330. Another airport often mentioned is BWI. That would be great, but runs into the same problem as BOS with the longest runway at 10,500 feet. My guess is that from an operational standpoint, those two airports are probably out of the running.

But sticking with the four short-list options, that could easily take us will into 2012 or 2013 with just those destinations. Of course management could put the A330's on some of our more heavily travelled routes like HNL-LAX, HNL-LAS, or HNL-SEA, freeing 767's up to do some new routes like SLC or DEN. But I really don't think those decisions will be made for some time yet.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2796 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 19):
I would love to go go BOS, however the longest runway there is just over 10,000 feet long. For a 4400 mile route westbound against the winds, that's not really enough runway to be able to do it, even with the A330.

That is 4400 NAUTICAL miles, or 5110 normal miles. Which makes it even worse.



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User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2598 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 20):
That is 4400 NAUTICAL miles, or 5110 normal miles. Which makes it even worse.

Yeah. As a pilot I always think in nautical miles anyway. Our HNL-SYD route is 4403nm, HNL-MNL is 4607nm and BOS-HNL is 4427nm. The problem with BOS is not only the short runway, but the fact that it's a more northerly city and the flights to HNL would be flown into the jetstream much more often, making the air-miles distance even further. I just don't think it would work well for any aircraft.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3195 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2481 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 9):
As stated by someone before on the forum, the name of the first 330 will be "The Spirit of JFK"

That someone was you in reply 77 in this thread. And I don't believe it to be accurate. I have Hawaiian's 2010 calendar in front of me and it states that the A330s will be named after celestial bodies familiar to Polynesian explorers.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2470 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 17):
It doesn't seem like it would be viable, except maybe by a 787. BOS-HNL is 4421nm, longer than the 3350nm it is to FCO, the current longest route out of BOS. It's also all VFR. But if it is indeed viable, as some of you think (and I'm sure you all know better than me), then I would love to see it.

Not even a 787 will make BOS-HNL viable.



a.
User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1354 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2399 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 9):

As stated by someone before on the forum, the name of the first 330 will be "The Spirit of JFK"

This is incorrect.

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 22):
That someone was you in reply 77 in this thread. And I don't believe it to be accurate. I have Hawaiian's 2010 calendar in front of me and it states that the A330s will be named after celestial bodies familiar to Polynesian explorers.

This is correct.

Our first A330 aircraft, N380HA, will be named "Makali'i", which is known as Pleiades or the Seven Sisters in western astronomy. This name was chosen because this constellation was visible on the evening of HA's first flight back on November 11, 1929 and Makali'i is also represented on our new flight attendant/custormer service uniforms.

Aloha,
HALFA



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