After official decision of their change from oneworld to Skyteam, this route change will be informed also for the future.
It will keep 2 daily flights to Amsterdam, the regular service by KLM (KL861/862) (B772/B744), with current schedules nearly similar to those of the daily JAL flight (JL411/412)(B772).
The daily JAL flight will come instead from HND, with a new timetable also, seeing overnight flight from HND to AMS. It should leave HND at a late hour in the evening with a very early morning arrival in AMS, granting a lot of transfer connections into Europe on KL.
Additionally, Japanese businessmen can do a full day of working in AMS after completing the flight from HND.
After recent cuts in JAL's routenetwork, a lot of people were expecting AMS to be cut too. But it did not happen.
This was because of a few points,
-the upcoming move to Skyteam
-the good transit facilities at AMS and one-terminal concept, good baggage performance too
-not slot-restricted
I think this is a good move for JAL and will bring them success on this route!
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
While KL fly from NRT? You seriously expect the NL government to allow this? [I am assuming that HND will give Jl a big advantage over KL]
This is the whole thing about opening up HND to international flights again, BOTH governments have to agree, I don't think many will if their carrier is stuck out at NRT.
Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1): You seriously expect the NL government to allow this?
Yes, I suppose so. NRT offers also some destinations which are difficult to reach from AMS, e.g. SPN, GUM. Also the airport location of NRT is not too bad. It's often said, but you only need to take a train for about 90 minutes to downtown. Why is this a problem a regular traveller?
Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1): [I am assuming that HND will give Jl a big advantage over KL]
JL will always keep advantage over KL, since JL is preferred by the Japanese travellers. Also Japanese businessmen like to fly on JL, not on KL. That advantage already excist nowadays, even with both flights out of NRT.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
KL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 15604 times:
Quoting Gemuser (Reply 1): While KL fly from NRT? You seriously expect the NL government to allow this? [I am assuming that HND will give Jl a big advantage over KL]
Doesn't matter, both NRT and HND will have a KL and a JL flightnumber. So basically JL and KL offer two Tokyo airports.
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 15577 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 3): Doesn't matter, both NRT and HND will have a KL and a JL flightnumber. So basically JL and KL offer two Tokyo airports.
Indeed! With codesharing on eachothers flights, Skyteam will have a wonderful coverage to Japan and Europe.
Don't forget AF will also move 1 flight to HND. From Europe to any Japanese destination, Skyteam will be the choice to fly, and from Japan to Europe, Skyteam will also have a very good coverage and a very convenient airport to transfer at (AMS). I see this as a good move for JL and for their new alliance!
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3555 posts, RR: 30 Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 15035 times:
Interesting... has any of the JAL restructuring plan been made public? I read earlier that the 744 fleet was to be parked as well as many route cancelations. Any changes or updates to this plane, now that they're officially in bankruptcy protection?
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 14883 times:
Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 5): Interesting... has any of the JAL restructuring plan been made public? I read earlier that the 744 fleet was to be parked as well as many route cancelations. Any changes or updates to this plane, now that they're officially in bankruptcy protection?
Expect official information about route cancellations, but also changes (like the one mentioned) around June 2010.
Expect information about the alliance change in February (probably on Monday already, Feb 1, 2010)
3 passenger B744's are leaving this week to VCV, 1 cargo B744 left recently and entered service with Kalitta.
Quoting MogandoCI (Reply 6): So perhaps JL should offer the J-heavy service from HND, while the low-yields can use the J-light service from NRT ?
JAL's B772 offer 56 C-class seats, where KLM's B772's only have 35 of those.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13664 times:
Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 8): According to this article on Luchtvaartnieuws.nl this future HND flight will be in addition to NRT iso a route change. Can anyone clarify that?
There is no demand to justify that, and you might contact the website you mentioned and ask for their source. It might have been caused by wrong translation from Japanese media reports, as we've seen before recently, with reports about JL.
HND would be a good and understandable move, but not as an 'extra'.
btw, officially nothing is settled yet. We first have to await JAL's move into Skyteam, probably announced next week.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
KL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13091 times:
Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 8): According to this article on Luchtvaartnieuws.nl this future HND flight will be in addition to NRT iso a route change. Can anyone clarify that?
They probably mean that JL can sell both destinations under a JL flightnumber.
Btw, can we see a KL 747 to cater for businessclass anytime in NRT when JL moves?
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
G-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1209 posts, RR: 10 Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12900 times:
I think the new international terminal at HND comes in operation in the summer of this year. Expect a bun fight between international airlines to get a foot hold in there. Narita takes 60 mins to reach from Tokyo and vice versa whereas HND is in Tokyo Bay.
It is only speculation what will happen to JAL but to survive it is inevitable it will shrink. As for demand on Japanese routes, an educated guess says it's going to be dire for the next year to 18 months due to the current economic climate. Few Brits will be going as the Yen appreciated against the Pound again over the past few days and it makes Japan hideously expensive.
Hondah35 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 113 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12812 times:
Sometimes airlines are so ridiculous it is laughable. No wonder AA is so frustrated with this whole process. Here is an airline that has lost hundreds of millions of dollars since who knows when and is looking to rack up tens of more millions in costs to switch alliances and the big question around JAL headquarters is whether they are going to serve AMS from HND or NRT?
DTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 684 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11896 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 13): Don't forget we're talking about 2 large Skyteam hubs if JL joins next week
Quote: In a major development for the global airline alliances landscape and competitive strategy in the Asia Pacific region, Japan Airlines (JAL) has decided to dump its alliance with American Airlines and oneworld in favour of Delta and SkyTeam, according to the Mainichi Newspaper in Japan, without citing sources. The move is to be officially announced by new JAL Chairman, Kazuo Inamori, on Monday, according to the report.
Quote: Japan Airlines (JAL) decided Wednesday to dump its partnership with American Airlines and its Oneworld alliance in favor of Delta and the SkyTeam group of carriers.
American together with a private equity firm had offered to invest $1.4 billion in JAL and strengthen cooperation between the two airlines, but JAL judged an alliance with Delta -- the world's largest airline -- would produce greater benefits.
The partnership with Delta will be officially announced by new JAL Chairman Kazuo Inamori on Monday.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
Peanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1307 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11132 times:
Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 14): Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
Don't forget we're talking about 2 large Skyteam hubs if JL joins next week
Next week???
So soon??? Are you sure??
No, they won't "join" next week. The "announcement" to officially "defect" from OW and team up with SkyTeam is next week. The process of withdrawing from OW will take a while. If we have to take Arpey's word for it, it will be drawn out
[Edited 2010-01-28 21:59:49]
Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10432 times:
Quoting Hondah35 (Reply 12): Here is an airline that has lost hundreds of millions of dollars since who knows when and is looking to rack up tens of more millions in costs to switch alliances and the big question around JAL headquarters is whether they are going to serve AMS from HND or NRT?
What a joke....
No need to feel yourself offended or so, but as said, it's all part of the survival plan. And a logical decision when JAL moves to Skyteam.
Quoting KL911 (Reply 10): Btw, can we see a KL 747 to cater for businessclass anytime in NRT when JL moves?
KL already operates a few days by B744 IIRC, I think combi's, to cater for their cargo business to NRT. These have indeed a larger business class then the B772s.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
FlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7313 posts, RR: 61 Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10386 times:
Once in SkyTeam, JAL will probably strengthen its already historical strong cooperation with AF.
We can expect a JAL/AF codeshare on all the flights between France & Japan, and maybe even in a mid-term a joint venture on this market "a la AF/DL".
I could see the CDG-NGO route resumed, but operated this time by AF with a more appropriate A332 aircraft (rather than too big JL B777).
AF has already announced its plan to double its frequency on CDG-KIX (from 1 x Daily to 2 x Daily).
And as mentioned already, the reorganization of its services on Paris-Tokyo after the introduction of the A380 on the route with :
2 x Daily CDG-NRT-CDG (A380 + B77W)
1 x Daily CDG-HND-CDG (A332/A343)
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 18 Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10330 times:
Quoting Peanuts (Reply 16): No, they won't "join" next week. The "announcement" to officially "defect" from OW and team up with SkyTeam is next week.
Indeed, like CO when they left ST. IIRC it took a few months for the transition to take place, after the announcement was made.
Quoting Hondah35 (Reply 12): Here is an airline that has lost hundreds of millions of dollars since who knows when
IIRC they have only been having trouble the last couple of years. Before that, they were profitable (excluding a couple of years in the mid nineties).
Quoting Hondah35 (Reply 12): the big question around JAL headquarters is whether they are going to serve AMS from HND or NRT?
That's not really the only question in their minds. They have announced massive restructuring, including the retirement of their entire 747 fleet (hard to imagine that not so long ago, JL was the largest 747 operator in the world). This is just one of those restructuring measures.
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10260 times:
Quoting Kappel (Reply 19): Before that, they were profitable (excluding a couple of years in the mid nineties).
The airline has never been really financially strong. They've made some profit yes, but since they became a private company (ex state-owned), JAL never changed minds to become a real player to do good business. They just kept their old conservative behaviour, which damaged them a lot over the recent years. I wonder how the future will be, ... they really have to change their minds in the topmanagement.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
Centrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3597 posts, RR: 21 Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10159 times:
Quoting Kappel (Reply 19): Indeed, like CO when they left ST. IIRC it took a few months for the transition to take place, aft
And what made it nice at NRT is that it only had to move a few gates down as all of Star is in T1.
If JL changes, DL and other Skyteam members may then move to T2 and OneWorld would have to move to T1. That would suck in my mind. JL could maybe make the base transition easily but it would be a mess for "under one roof" especially at NRT.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2588 posts, RR: 31 Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10137 times:
Given that new frequencies are available from HND to the Netherlands, this route makes sense. While there may not be a ton of O&D on this sector, the connecting opportunities available beyond AMS to the rest of Europe will be extensive and surely make this flight popular...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
Aeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 2957 posts, RR: 30 Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9405 times:
Will JL from from DME to SVO after the move?
25 Aeolus: Is this actually a fact? Last I heard it was a plan not a fact... if it is the latter, can anyone provide a possible date of switch/entry to SkyTeam?
26 DL Widget Head: From what I've read, DL has stated they will cover JAL's costs for switching alliances. Of course, there's no way you could know what the "big" quest
27 Airbuseric: I wonder actually. How about JL leaving Moscow completely? Since SU is part of Skyteam, and operate already a daily A330 flight to NRT, this might be
28 PRGLY: And PRG can possible be the one that will get it.....
29 Aeroflot777: I'm not sure about that. Moscow gets A LOT of revenue off of Japan. SU's Tokyo flight is one of the most important in the entire network, with a very
30 Kiwiandrew: That should read "Almost all of Star is in T1" NZ have stayed in T2 because of the codesharing of New Zealand- Japan routes with JL . Anyway , back o
31 MAH4546: They aren't blaming it on anybody, although in reality, the fact that other airlines in OW have not strongly cooperated with JAL is likely a key driv
32 LAXtoATL: I'm not saying that OW will lose another carrier, but it is comical for you take this stance since you said AA losing JAL wouldn't happen either!
33 NYCAdvantage: I agree, If there is someone to be blame is the OneWorld partners, if AA didn't have a strong relationship, than what else JL had to decide, I said t
34 KL911: Indeed very likely. AA has to blame itself for this and their massive debts. I was thinking about that as well, let's wait and see. OK is not going l
35 Jetlanta: Let's not scapegoat the other OW carriers. The ultimate blame goes to AA's network. As I've stated all along, a rational analysis of long-term benefi
36 MAH4546: The reasons that JAL may defect to Star would support why TAM would join oneWorld - huge concentration of power in LatAm with AA, MX, LA, and IB. It
37 Jetlanta: Mark, that's the point. Delta's is obviously stronger. "Just fine" isn't good enough under these circumstances. It's not a knock on AA, just a statem
38 CYSAFAN: It is truly a good news for the NRT-AMS flyers because you can get into the heart of Tokyo within minutes instead of Narita which is quite far from th
39 CYSAFAN: Next International flight to go to HND will be the former SIN-NRT SQ A380 flight ......Very good for aviation spotters!!! A combination of A380 and Do
40 LJ: Should this route become reality I doubt BA will be pleased as well. Already some Japanese travel via AMS to London (City airport). If the new route b
41 MAH4546: But, thankfully for AA (although I personally believe in market forces self-correcting, so I have no problem with DL-JL), we have a government that s
42 Airbuseric: I guess this is not a problem. On my recent flight to LCY I noticed cabins only used max 50%, so ample available seats on this route. And otherwise,
43 Jetlanta: "Significantly" is not the word I'd use here. JAL is shrinking regardless. There will be slots released regardless, due to JAL's bankruptcy. Except f
44 Jfk777: Some of these airline are too geographocally challeneged to help JAL very much. IB feeds JAL's AMS flight with traffic from Madrid. AY is too far fro
45 Blueman87: did i miss the official announcement sense the article said it would be released monday unless they ment japans monday which i think is tomorrow which
46 Avek00: How so? LHR is poorly positioned to be a connecting hub for onward Europe flights for Japan/Asia travelers. CDG and AMS work much better.
47 Jacobin777: There's practically no difference in terms of NRT-LHR-Europe versus NRT-CDG/AMS-Europe. "Backtracking" is minimal to none.
48 MAH4546: No, it's not. Madrid definitley is, but not Heathrow, nor Helsinki, which, while a small local market, would certainly play an important role in conn
49 Teme82: Yeah AY is a bit too far from Central and Western Europe.. It's mainly feeding pax from Scandinavia to NRT. I don't have info do they continue with J
50 Avek00: There is a difference, with respect to time. LHR has the disadvantage of being one hour behind the rest of Western Europe.
51 AAExecPlat: How does that matter to someone that connects to somewhere else in Europe? They will just make that hour back one way or another. LHR isn't as out of
52 AAExecPlat: Really? How much of the US-NRT traffic is run by a combined JL/DL? What percentage of slots are held at NRT between DL and JL? You don't think that t
53 Jetlanta: Again, those criteria are not how the law judges anti-competitive behavior. You can think it is anti-competitive, I don't care. But the law does not
54 AAExecPlat: Jetlanta. Agreed on all counts. But I do wonder if NRT, like LHR, will get "special scrutiny" because of the closed nature of the airport, because of
55 Jetlanta: Thanks. I understand what you are saying. However, this all isn't happening in a vacuum. JAL is shrinking regardless. ANA & Star are not. Today JL &
56 LAXtoATL: The interesting thing is if you ignore the rhetoric, that Star would actually be the #1 carrier between NRT and the U.S. mainland even if JAL switche
57 AAExecPlat: LAXtoATL. That is very interesting and something I didn't know. I thought, based on all the threads here, that DL was the largest carrier between Jap
58 AAExecPlat: I agree with you. That said, I wonder if JL will make a decision that might not be in its best financial interest in the hope that it might avoid bec
59 Jetlanta: I think there are a number of reasons why JAL might not make a decision that would be in its best interest. This is just one of them. LOL
60 Airbuseric: All the thinking about the fact of JAL using LHR as 'hub' so far in oneworld; it IS a bad location and airport for JAL and the alliance; 1) Flighttime
61 Peanuts: This sums it up nicely: http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...tion-but-stronger-2-alliance/page1 StarAlliance, according to the table in this articl
62 MAH4546: The applications will likely be considered in the greater scheme of things concurrently. Star won't sail through if JAL/DAL apply. Star will probably
63 AAExecPlat: 1) KLM is scheduled for 11:45 hours NRT to LHR on 2/2/10 BA is scheduled for 12:15 hours NRT to LHR on 2/2/10 This suggests your estimate is exaggerat
64 AAExecPlat: Except for the data in the table seems incorrect. I am going to reconstruct the table myself, but there is no way ANA carries twice as many pax betwe
65 AAExecPlat: Here's what I have reconstructed: JL NRT JFK 77W 250 LAX 77W 250 ORD 77W 250 SFO 77W 250 1000 AA NRT DFW 772 504 JFK 772 252 LAX 772 252 ORD 772 252 1
66 Kiwiandrew: Interesting analysis , bearing in mind that JL is expected to shrink considerably under restructuring it will be interesting to see what a combined J
67 AAExecPlat: Thanks for the two pointers. Bear in mind that I didn't include any Asia flying for JL nor any 5th freedom flights for DL. As a share of NRT airport,
68 EI564: This article might be useful also for your discussion http://www.anna.aero/2009/12/18/will...emand-access-to-haneda-may-be-key/
69 Airbuseric: Aircraft don't fly as per your Great Circle Mapper, but aircraft use airways. Actual flighttimes are rougly 1 hours different compared between AMS an
70 AAExecPlat: Look at the actual flighttimes I provided you in my post. It is an extra 30 minutes to LHR as opposed to AMS. That's independent of the GCM. Are you
71 Jetlanta: Also keep in mind that a share of JAL seats routed through the U.S. have actually been Brazil and Mexico capacity.
72 Viscount724: And not only before takeoff. It is very common (the majority of my flights) for flights arriving at LHR to be put in a holding pattern, sometimes for
73 AAExecPlat: Wouldn't that mean that DL and UA have similar situations with their tags from NRT?
76 Centrair: If some of JL's NRT flights are shifted to HND, there might be better chances for AA to increase (don't know where from though), AM to increase US to
77 Airbuseric: No I don't say that. BA uses the quicker B747-400, JAL uses B777-300/200. Difference on these sectors can be up to 45 minutes (!) Beware of that too.
78 AAExecPlat: Airbuseric. You continue to try to justify your unsubstantiated opinions. Here are the facts: JAL does not use 11:30 hours timetable between AMS-NRT.
79 TR: This is not correct. A quick look in a GDS will tell you that BA uses 12h15mins on 744 while JL uses 12h45mins on the 77W. I did the flight on BA on
80 AAExecPlat: You are correct. I misread the OW timetable. Thanks for catching the error. What that then says is that LHR is still only 30 mins more than LHR since
81 Jfk777: This would be the time for BA to show us they don't have an "allergy" to another airline using Terminal 5, welcoming JAL's 1 daily 77W to T5 would he
82 Airbuseric: JAL does ONLY fly B772 AMS-NRT, so what about your facts ?! JAL DO use 11H30 minutes timetable between AMS-NRT (end of discussion about this also) JA
83 AAExecPlat: Good catch. I misread the schedule. My bad. Unlike you, I can admit when I'm wrong. Indeed they do, but that is not relevant. I have compared NRT-AMS
84 airbuseric: OK, to come back on that one. Agree with you indeed that sometimes LHR is quicker, sometimes similar. But,... as I mentioned, don't forget a passenge
85 FFlyerWorld: Well nothing is for sure in life is it ?? With this article today, appears now AA may hold the upper hand. Must admit I am quite surprised by this lat
86 kiwiandrew: I am not too sure that this changes things too much , I have always believed that JL favours staying with OW and AA while the Japanese Government and
87 LHCVG: You've got it there. whatever happens will happen and it all depends on who can exert the most leverage.
88 EI787: Please continue the discussion here: JAL Says NO To Delta/SkyTeam (by ariis Feb 7 2010 in Civil Aviation) Many thanks. Any additional posts that are m
Sponsor Message: 
From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, 
From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5217 posts, 
From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3555 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1209 posts, 
From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3597 posts, 
From France, joined Aug 2003, 7313 posts, 
From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, 
From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5057 posts, 
From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 2957 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
