Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Trans-Antarctic Routes - Demand For Them?  
User currently offlineVikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12462 times:

As the topic states, there are very few routes that come close to the Antarctic continent. Is there a demand for routes such as PER-EZE that would cross the Antarctic continent and would there be regulations that would prevent such a route from becoming operational? Although quad jets are now required to abide by ETOPS requirements by the FAA and the Australian equivalent, is there anything stopping from Qantas applying for permission to run PER-EZE nonstop?

Thoughts?


...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12453 times:

Doesn't QF already operate SYD-EZE?? I know it doesn't quite cross the Antarctic continent but comes pretty close. SYD-JNB comes relatively close too.

Either way, I think that's what Boeing is pushing ETOPS-330 for, so the 777's and 787's could to Trans-Antarctic flights.


User currently offlineVikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12404 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
Doesn't QF already operate SYD-EZE??

Yes, 3x weekly. However, these can hardly be argued as trans-antarctic. This routing does not surpass 330 minute ETOPS.

What about true antarctic crossings? AKL-CPT and PER-GIG would be a true test.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
Either way, I think that's what Boeing is pushing ETOPS-330 for, so the 777's and 787's could to Trans-Antarctic flights.

Why don't we see Quads operating these routes today? If quads aren't doing them, why do we need twins to do them?



...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12329 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 2):
This routing does not surpass 330 minute ETOPS.

Not in the sense of a straight line routing but given actual dispatch routes, it may very well go into ETOPS-330 territory.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SYD-EZE...=outline&DU=mi&ETOPS=240&ETOPS=330

Even so, the FAA currently only allows up to ETOPS-207, not ETOPS-240. And as you can see, those routes get well into ETOPS-240 territory.

Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 2):
What about true antarctic crossings? AKL-CPT and PER-GIG would be a true test.

Yes but what is the feasibility of these routes?? If there is any market to them, it would only work on light twins like the 787 or A350.

Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 2):
Why don't we see Quads operating these routes today? If quads aren't doing them, why do we need twins to do them?

Because most of the routes you mention would be extreme niche routes and operating them on a 744 or A340 simply is not realistic at all, and *that* is why you don't see them operating those routes and is *exactly* why you want the new generation twins to have longer ETOPS ratings.


User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 780 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12294 times:

SIN-SCL would be transantarctic as well, but out of range of any commercial airliner. That said the demand for such a route would be pretty low.

User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2748 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12225 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 3):
light twins like the 787 or A350.

I thought a light twin was something like a Piper Seneca or a Beech Baron.  


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12196 times:



Quoting Bohica (Reply 5):
I thought a light twin was something like a Piper Seneca or a Beech Baron.

Well you know, metal Baron, composite 787...... about the same  


User currently offlineVikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11966 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 3):
Because most of the routes you mention would be extreme niche routes and operating them on a 744 or A340 simply is not realistic at all, and *that* is why you don't see them operating those routes and is *exactly* why you want the new generation twins to have longer ETOPS ratings.

So, IF there was a market for say, AKL-CPT and say SA wanted to run it with a 744.. They COULD run this? What you're saying is the only reason it isn't done is because there is not a market for any nonstop flight in the southern hemisphere that would include a trans-antarctic crossing?



...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15830 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11906 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 2):
This routing does not surpass 330 minute ETOPS.

It isn't ETOPS anything since it is flown with a 747 if I'm not mistaken.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 3):
If there is any market to them,

I don't think there is, but you never know.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineVikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11877 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
It isn't ETOPS anything since it is flown with a 747 if I'm not mistaken.

Actually, tri and quad jets are subjected to ETOPS rules above 180 minutes since early 2008.



...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
User currently offlineWeb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11811 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think that That is stops procedures if there more than 180 min, not the restrictions.


Boiler Up!
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4700 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11517 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 3):
Yes but what is the feasibility of these routes??

EZE-PER would indeed be a niche route.

However, you could use PER as a fuel stop on the way from EZE to HKG or other airports in Asia. And suddenly, the idea doesn't seem that absurd any more.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineGdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11508 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 2):
What about true antarctic crossings? AKL-CPT and PER-GIG would be a true test.

Actually, the truest test would indeed be PER-EZE, dead across the center of Antarctiva:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=per-eze,+akl-cpt,+per-gig


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6456 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11482 times:

I thought there were regulations on how far south you could go, something like not anywhere south of 60 degrees S?


It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineVikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11448 times:



Quoting NZ107 (Reply 13):
I thought there were regulations on how far south you could go, something like not anywhere south of 60 degrees S?

I believe that the ruling for below 60 degrees south is that the aircraft must be polar equipped, which is a new regulation of the amended ETOPS rules from early 2008. Flights that pass north of 78 degrees north and south of 60 degrees south have to abide by these extra requirements.

SYD-EZE surely passes past 60degrees south. If not, it would not be travelling the great circle distance.



...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1761 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11446 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 11):
EZE-PER would indeed be a niche route.

However, you could use PER as a fuel stop on the way from EZE to HKG or other airports in Asia. And suddenly, the idea doesn't seem that absurd any more.

Even this is probably quite unlikely. At only 125nm additional distance, EZE-JNB-HKG would probably be a more desirable routing in terms of demand and doesn't require coming remotely close to Antarctica. There just isn't much need for Antarctic crossings because the world's land mass and population base is notably skewed toward the northern hemisphere.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4700 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11350 times:



Quoting Steex (Reply 15):
At only 125nm additional distance, EZE-JNB-HKG would probably be a more desirable routing in terms of demand and doesn't require coming remotely close to Antarctica.

In theory, that's true. In the real world, JNB's elevation will result in very substantial payload restrictions for nearly all aircraft except the A345 and 772LR (JNB-HKG is over 5700nm).



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11328 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 14):
SYD-EZE surely passes past 60degrees south.

If they don't pass 60 S, total distance is maybe 70 nm longer than the great-circle minimum. So probably they don't?


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5216 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11254 times:



Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 9):
Actually, tri and quad jets are subjected to ETOPS rules above 180 minutes since early 2008.

These types are grandfathered for ~ 8-years, I believe.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 13):
I thought there were regulations on how far south you could go, something like not anywhere south of 60 degrees S?

 checkmark  Certainly so far as Australian ( and when implemented, N.Z's ) EDTO standard's are concerned.

Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 14):
believe that the ruling for below 60 degrees south is that the aircraft must be polar equipped,

I don't believe the term "polar equipped " appears in the afore mentioned EDTO standard. For operations south of 60S the standard requires operators to put forth a comprehensive plan to recover passengers from a adequately equipped alternate airport. The "kicker" is of course there are no such alternates in Antartica !


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25983 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11150 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 17):
Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 14):
SYD-EZE surely passes past 60degrees south.

If they don't pass 60 S, total distance is maybe 70 nm longer than the great-circle minimum. So probably they don't?

I recall another thread some time ago on the same subject where it was mentioned that QF has a policy not to go further south than 60 deg. (or some figure close to that). I've forgotten whether than was a QF policy or an Australian regulatory restriction. Unlike routes over the Arctic, the nearest alternate airports are a long way away if you're over the middle of Antarctica. Ove the North Pole you're within 2 hours flying time of an airport that can handle widebodies. I expect Thule Air Base in northern Greenland is probably the closest.


User currently offlineAquariusHKG From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2010, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10558 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 16):

In theory, that's true. In the real world, JNB's elevation will result in very substantial payload restrictions for nearly all aircraft except the A345 and 772LR (JNB-HKG is over 5700nm).

Probably, but JNB-HKG should still be profitable for airlines even without C market aircraft

CX fly the route with 77W, A343 and 744, and SA used 742, 747SP, A346 on the route


User currently offlineGarethW From New Zealand, joined Apr 2006, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10401 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
I recall another thread some time ago on the same subject where it was mentioned that QF has a policy not to go further south than 60 deg. (or some figure close to that).

The SYD-EZE-SYD route is of particular interest to me, as I currently live in CHC New Zealand. While the GCM routing of SYD-EZE is way south of NZL's South Island, in reality I see this flight overhead CHC city regularly (both east & westbound). That suggests either QF is routing further north (& around 135nm further than most direct routing) for winds (understandable eastbound) or for the factors you & others above suggest.

SYD-EZE%0D%0ASYD-CHC%0D%0ACHC-EZE&MS=wls&RS=outline&DU=nm" target=_blank>http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SYD-EZE...%0ACHC-EZE&MS=wls&RS=outline&DU=nm

Regards,
GW



How good is it?
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8932 times:

1) NZ has a self-imposed restriction on not flying to/from/over Antartica ever since the Erebus tragedy.
2) The only routes that would seemingly benefit such flights would be AKL-JNB (or similar). Australia flights have great circles outside of Antarctica (except PER-South America).



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8873 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
I recall another thread some time ago on the same subject where it was mentioned that QF has a policy not to go further south than 60 deg. (or some figure close to that).

The mentioned thread is here: Most Desolate Long-Range Routes? (by Faro Jul 9 2009 in Tech Ops), and related post is N° 40 by SunriseValley.

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineTayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8502 times:



Quoting KL577 (Reply 4):
SIN-SCL would be transantarctic as well, but out of range of any commercial airliner. That said the demand for such a route would be pretty low.

SIN-MEL-EZE/GRU/GIG would be trans-antarctic and overfly HBA en route south.

i.e A380 is pretty much beyond reach from Singapore to Brazil's two main cities direct (A388 = 8200nm) without a stopover in JNB, CPT, PER, ADL, MEL, SYD or AKL.

SIN-GRU 8644nm
SIN-GIG 8511nm

SIN-MEL 3253nm
MEL-GRU 7094nm (10347nm)
MEL-GIG 7158nm (10411nm)

SIN-SYD 3395nm
SYD-GRU 7228nm (10623nm)
SYD-GIG 7312nm (10707nm)

SIN-AKL 4540nm
AKL-GRU 6504nm (11044nm non-transantarctic)
AKL-GIG 6631nm (11171nm non-transantarctic)

pity Australia's a tightarse with giving 5th freedoms. Imagine SQ flying SIN-MEL-GRU-JNB-SIN and reverse on A380s?


25 AirPacific747 : Actually far from. It doesn't go much further than about 50 degrees south according to google earth. That's at about the same latitude as London in t
26 AA777223 : Why can you fly northern polar routes, but not southern ones? Seems kinda stupid to me.
27 AquariusHKG : Because there's no airport on the continent of Antarctica suitable for emergency diversion, and airport in the southern ocean are very limited, becau
28 AirPacific747 : I don't think there is a single one.. especially with a runway capable of handling a heavy. Cape Horn is at about 56° S, so any commercial airport b
29 Post contains links VikingA346 : There is an ice runway on Antarctica, called Wilkins. YWKS. http://www.gcmap.com/airport/YWKS This airport handles an Airbus A319 in the summer months
30 Gemuser : There are others. McMurdo/Scott [the main USAF Operation Deep Freeze "airport" served from CHC] to name one and I am sure there are one or two others
31 VikingA346 : I'm considering writing a thesis on the future feasibility of equipping one of these antarctic airports with the infrastructure required in order to
32 Post contains images Gemuser : Good luck! It would be an interesting thesis. You would obviously have to look at locations in relation to potential air routes, which means you'd ha
33 DavidByrne : The ice runway at McMurdo ("Williams Field") is, to my recollection, summer-only, and is "recreated" each year after the ravages of the winter. It do
34 Post contains images RJ111 : 9 Airfields and 1 Heliport (GC0012) according to the GCM. You may be thinking, but there are only 8 dots. Well, the one closest to New Zealand is in
35 DavidByrne : Yes, checking GCM, it seems that Williams Field (NZWD) has a runway length of 10,000 ft, which probably imposes a few constraints on its use by C-17s
36 AquariusHKG : I believe the runway @ McMurdo can be made to handle 747? As I recall reading some article about Qantas landing 747 there
37 DavidByrne : I am 99.9999% sure that this has never happened! We're not talking about an "airport" as such at McMurdo, but IIRC a strip which is marked out on sea
38 VikingA346 : If you can find that article it would be much appreciated! You're probably right. However, Wilkins runway (YWKS) caters to an Airbus A319 in the Anta
39 Gemuser : True, but its an ICE runway, not an airport. I believe it has no nav aids, certainly no ILS, operations are only VFR. I also seriously doubt that an
40 DavidByrne : But the ice runway at McMurdo will support C-141s and (I think - can anyone confirm?) C-17s.
41 Zeke : AFIK QF company policy is not to fly below 65 deg S, except on the the specific south pole charters. Also depends where they are registered, FAA rule
42 Rafabozzolla : JJ is receiving more A332s and apparently has no use for them. They could put those on MXP and free up the two A345s to run GRU-AKL-(SYD). I think the
43 Zkpilot : 3 main factors: 1) Not as far from inhabited places (versus Antarctica which is thousands of kilometres from the nearest country) 2) Alternative airp
44 VikingA346 : mmm... The coldest temperature EVER recorded was -89deg C. Are you referring to temps at the flight levels that aircraft fly at? If so, would be inte
45 Gemuser : Yes, but both of them have lower pavement loading than the B777. The ice runway could probably support a C5. All these types have lots & lots of
46 zkpilot : sorry got my F and C mixed up -129degF and yes -89.2degC in Antarctica. It is possible however that the air further up in the atmosphere is colder if
47 DLPhoenix : I heard somewhere that crews flying polar routes were subject to radiation quotas. Will such restrictions apply trans antarctic flight crews as well?
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
FR's Winter Routes Back For The Season... posted Tue Sep 1 2009 01:29:53 by Pe@rson
Hurricane Bill And Trans-atlantic Routes posted Sun Aug 23 2009 15:55:44 by Pegasus01
Trans-Tasman Routes To Become "domestic" posted Thu Aug 20 2009 04:58:28 by Slats
Longhaul Routes Accounts For Half The SAS Loss! posted Tue May 26 2009 10:58:54 by OyKIE
El Al Reports Strong Demand For New Brazil Flights posted Sun Mar 15 2009 22:21:56 by Semsem
Enough Demand For 3rd Daily BA LHR-SFO Flight? posted Wed Mar 26 2008 14:07:24 by 8herveg
Any New Routes Planned For Karlsruhe? (FR) posted Mon Jan 7 2008 11:49:13 by LHStarAlliance
Videos Like World Air Routes But For Maintenance? posted Wed Dec 5 2007 00:38:41 by Jawed
Trans-Tasman Routes-no Longer Flown & New? posted Tue Dec 4 2007 00:49:12 by ECONOMICS
Sukhoi Sees High Demand For VIP-version Of Superje posted Fri Sep 14 2007 11:58:58 by Flying-Tiger
Enough Demand For 3rd Daily BA LHR-SFO Flight? posted Wed Mar 26 2008 14:07:24 by 8herveg
Any New Routes Planned For Karlsruhe? (FR) posted Mon Jan 7 2008 11:49:13 by LHStarAlliance
Videos Like World Air Routes But For Maintenance? posted Wed Dec 5 2007 00:38:41 by Jawed
Trans-Tasman Routes-no Longer Flown & New? posted Tue Dec 4 2007 00:49:12 by ECONOMICS
Sukhoi Sees High Demand For VIP-version Of Superje posted Fri Sep 14 2007 11:58:58 by Flying-Tiger
FR's Winter Routes Back For The Season... posted Tue Sep 1 2009 01:29:53 by Pe@rson
Hurricane Bill And Trans-atlantic Routes posted Sun Aug 23 2009 15:55:44 by Pegasus01
Trans-Tasman Routes To Become "domestic" posted Thu Aug 20 2009 04:58:28 by Slats
Longhaul Routes Accounts For Half The SAS Loss! posted Tue May 26 2009 10:58:54 by OyKIE
El Al Reports Strong Demand For New Brazil Flights posted Sun Mar 15 2009 22:21:56 by Semsem
Enough Demand For 3rd Daily BA LHR-SFO Flight? posted Wed Mar 26 2008 14:07:24 by 8herveg
Any New Routes Planned For Karlsruhe? (FR) posted Mon Jan 7 2008 11:49:13 by LHStarAlliance
Videos Like World Air Routes But For Maintenance? posted Wed Dec 5 2007 00:38:41 by Jawed
Trans-Tasman Routes-no Longer Flown & New? posted Tue Dec 4 2007 00:49:12 by ECONOMICS
Sukhoi Sees High Demand For VIP-version Of Superje posted Fri Sep 14 2007 11:58:58 by Flying-Tiger