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Delta - Questions About Ex-NW 5500-series 752s  
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6445 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 10173 times:

I have a few questions about the DL's ex-NW 5500-series 752s, now that it has been confirmed that DL will be keeping them.

My first question is: When should we expect the first repaint of these aircraft? So far, none have been repainted as DL didn't make their final decision on these aircraft until recently.

My second question is: What type of interior upgrades will these aircraft get? I am pretty sure they will get the overhead bin extensions like the rest of DL's pre-merger 752 fleet, as well as new seats with AVOD. However, I would also like these aircraft to get new PSUs and fluorescent No Smoking/Fasten Seat Belt/Lavatory signs, as well as curved ceiling panels. These aircraft have the most outdated interior in the entire ex-NW fleet.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVctony From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 10171 times:

I'd say that they'll likely get re-painted and get wifi installed and DL will call it a day. While they are not leaving the fleet at this exact moment, I highly doubt that there will be much more expensive modifications done to them (as they still may leave the fleet over the next 2-4 years or so).

User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 10151 times:



Quoting Vctony (Reply 1):
While they are not leaving the fleet at this exact moment, I highly doubt that there will be much more expensive modifications done to them (as they still may leave the fleet over the next 2-4 years or so).

Why will they leave the fleet? Is there a commonality issue that makes keeping them too costly?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineVctony From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 10122 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 2):
Why will they leave the fleet? Is there a commonality issue that makes keeping them too costly?

I believe it's more of a high cycles and age issue (as many of the 5500s are mid-1980s build 752s). On the other hand, many of DLs 752s are mid-late 1990s builds (and the ex-NW 5600s are late 1990s and early 2000s builds, IINM).


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 9924 times:



Quoting Vctony (Reply 3):
I believe it's more of a high cycles and age issue (as many of the 5500s are mid-1980s build 752s). On the other hand, many of DLs 752s are mid-late 1990s builds (and the ex-NW 5600s are late 1990s and early 2000s builds, IINM).

The same could be argued for the DC-9-50s, which are older. However, DL will be keeping these aircraft for quite a while. DL actually has several 752s that are about the same age as the ex-NW 5500-series aircraft, some (most notably N610DL, the Pink Breast Cancer Awareness aircraft) even with AVOD.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months ago) and read 9853 times:

The NW 757 5500s are TERRIBLE. Not only do they look terribly out of date and have under-sized bins, they are in terrible shape. The carpet is stained and torn, the seats are likewise tattered, I've experienced a number of broken tray tables and even cracks in the plastic sidewalls.

If DL is going to keep them, they have a lot of work ahead of them in terms of making them pleasant, attractive, and brand-conforming aircraft, because as it is, they are embarssing. It seems to have been a forgone conclusion that they are leaving the fleet and so they have been let go.

It's amazing to me that with the new 737s and now more MD-90s they will even need the lift of the old and poorly cared for old 5500s.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9682 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
Quoting Vctony (Reply 3):
I believe it's more of a high cycles and age issue (as many of the 5500s are mid-1980s build 752s). On the other hand, many of DLs 752s are mid-late 1990s builds (and the ex-NW 5600s are late 1990s and early 2000s builds, IINM).

The same could be argued for the DC-9-50s, which are older. However, DL will be keeping these aircraft for quite a while.

Douglas aircraft usually have fewer ageing aircraft maintenance issues than Boeing aircraft of the same age. The DC-9 was built to last (many would say overbuilt) with fewer problems with things like corrosion which often affects Boeing aircraft of the ame age and sometimes makes it more cost-effective to retire them once they reach the point where they need a lot of expensive heavy maintenance..


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9568 times:



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 5):
The NW 757 5500s are TERRIBLE. Not only do they look terribly out of date and have under-sized bins, they are in terrible shape. The carpet is stained and torn, the seats are likewise tattered, I've experienced a number of broken tray tables and even cracks in the plastic sidewalls.

If DL is going to keep them, they have a lot of work ahead of them in terms of making them pleasant, attractive, and brand-conforming aircraft, because as it is, they are embarssing. It seems to have been a forgone conclusion that they are leaving the fleet and so they have been let go.

I am pretty sure they will initially get new carpet, seat covers, and Wi-Fi, but if Delta plans on keeping them in the long run, they will probably get new seats, AVOD, overhead bin extensions, and perhaps new PSUs. I agree that the interiors of the 5500-series 752s are in desparate need of an overhaul, and hopefully DL does something about it.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9494 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 5):
The NW 757 5500s are TERRIBLE. Not only do they look terribly out of date and have under-sized bins, they are in terrible shape. The carpet is stained and torn, the seats are likewise tattered, I've experienced a number of broken tray tables and even cracks in the plastic sidewalls.

If DL is going to keep them, they have a lot of work ahead of them in terms of making them pleasant, attractive, and brand-conforming aircraft, because as it is, they are embarssing. It seems to have been a forgone conclusion that they are leaving the fleet and so they have been let go.

I am pretty sure they will initially get new carpet, seat covers, and Wi-Fi, but if Delta plans on keeping them in the long run, they will probably get new seats, AVOD, overhead bin extensions, and perhaps new PSUs. I agree that the interiors of the 5500-series 752s are in desparate need of an overhaul, and hopefully DL does something about it.

Generally (but not always), NW seems to assign the 5500s to shorter routes, often not much more than 3.5-4 hours. If DL wanted to, they could upgrade the 5600s to new Delta standards, like the DL south birds, and use them for 3+ hour flights and just upgrade the 5500s to new carpet, seats, bin extensions, and assign them as a sub-3 hour sub-fleet, since ultimately, they will still probably be the first 757s to go.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9352 times:

I have heard that they will get new seats, a slightly more dense layout (mostly more F class seats because of a new Atlas galley), new overhead bins, new carpeting, side wall laminate, but only overhead IFE and the untouched lavatories. Basically about 75% of what would be a total gut/redo of the plane.

I have heard they will probably be committed to mostly hub-to-Florida type routes rather than transcons and the like.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9287 times:



Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 9):
I have heard that they will get new seats, a slightly more dense layout (mostly more F class seats because of a new Atlas galley), new overhead bins, new carpeting, side wall laminate, but only overhead IFE and the untouched lavatories. Basically about 75% of what would be a total gut/redo of the plane.

I have heard they will probably be committed to mostly hub-to-Florida type routes rather than transcons and the like.

I'm not sure about the overhead IFE. After all, it has been stated that the plans are to install AVOD on all aircraft except the MD-88s and DC-9-50s (and any aircraft DL will be eliminating, including DC-9-30s and DC-9-40s). However, this decision was made before DL decided on keeping the 5500-series 752s, so anything can happen.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDLMD90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9184 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 10):
I'm not sure about the overhead IFE. After all, it has been stated that the plans are to install AVOD on all aircraft except the MD-88s and DC-9-50s (and any aircraft DL will be eliminating, including DC-9-30s and DC-9-40s). However, this decision was made before DL decided on keeping the 5500-series 752s, so anything can happen.

This is what I heard as well, but this was not mentioned on the call, and there was no conformation of this in any recent press, has this actually been confirmed?


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8962 times:



Quoting Vctony (Reply 3):
I believe it's more of a high cycles and age issue (as many of the 5500s are mid-1980s build 752s). On the other hand, many of DLs 752s are mid-late 1990s builds (and the ex-NW 5600s are late 1990s and early 2000s builds, IINM).

I did a little research on this and found that a surprising number of the DL-South 752s are in fact older than the 5500 series DL-North Airplanes. Ship 601 is retired, I believe already chopped up, but 602-630 and 6901-6904 are in fact earlier builds than any of the 5500 series. This says nothing of the number of cycles or hours as every airline uses their airplanes differently.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 5):
If DL is going to keep them, they have a lot of work ahead of them in terms of making them pleasant, attractive, and brand-conforming aircraft, because as it is, they are embarssing. It seems to have been a forgone conclusion that they are leaving the fleet and so they have been let go.

These are mostly cosmetic issues and really say nothing to the condition of the airworthiness of the airplane. I would take a rag tag worn out interior with a solid well maintained airframe any day over an airplane with a shiny new interior that has been pencil whipped to airworthiness.

I am glad that DL has decided to keep the 5500 series airplanes. I know that many folks on a.net are quite critical of the 757 but I have found that as a pilot there is nothing out there that can come close in the performance department. I know the A320/321 fanboys like to talk a great deal about that airplane but they are always coming from a position of defending that airplane versus the 757. With the winglets performance enhancement I'd put that 20 year old 757 up against an A321-200 any day. The 757 will probably still burn a little more fuel, but she should be more than paid for by now and will make up for that fuel and then some. The 757s are creaping up there in age, but with good maintenance there is no reason why we can't still be seeing even the mid 80's builds flying faithfully through the next decade or at least until a true replacement is built.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8909 times:

Could someone answer these questions for me:

How many NW 752 5500 are there?

How many NW 752 5600 Domestic? interior upgrade? winglets?

How many NW 752 5600 Pacific? interior upgrade? still 20 business seats? what kind of seat is that? winglets?

How many NW 752 5600 Atlantic? interior upgrade? still 16 business seats? what type of seat is that? winglets?

Just trying to figure out how DL will integrate these 4 versions.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8489 times:



Quoting Peanuts (Reply 13):

Could someone answer these questions for me:

How many NW 752 5500 are there?

How many NW 752 5600 Domestic? interior upgrade? winglets?

How many NW 752 5600 Pacific? interior upgrade? still 20 business seats? what kind of seat is that? winglets?

How many NW 752 5600 Atlantic? interior upgrade? still 16 business seats? what type of seat is that? winglets?

Just trying to figure out how DL will integrate these 4 versions.

According to Wikipedia, there are:
  • 23 5500-series 752s
  • 9 domestic 5600-series 752s
  • 5 Intrapacific 5600-series 752s
  • 8 Transatlantic 5600-series 752s



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1540 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8270 times:



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
According to Wikipedia, there are:

23 5500-series 752s

9 domestic 5600-series 752s

5 Intrapacific 5600-series 752s

8 Transatlantic 5600-series 752s

That's close. There are 23 5600s in total but I'm not sure of the breakdown and there are 22 5500s but Airfleets only shows 20 of them in service right now.



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User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8224 times:



Quoting 727forever (Reply 12):
These are mostly cosmetic issues and really say nothing to the condition of the airworthiness of the airplane. I would take a rag tag worn out interior with a solid well maintained airframe any day over an airplane with a shiny new interior that has been pencil whipped to airworthiness.

I think you're creating a false dichotomy. You don't have to choose between having a nice, clean, properly maintained interior OR a safe, airworthy craft. I love flying the 757, but these ex NW 5500s are in terrible shape, from the pax perspective.

It is to be expected that all aircraft will be properly maintained. Period. If you want to be a world-class airline, as DL purports to aspire to, then aircraft in the sore interior condition that the 5500s are in are unacceptable, and need a pretty good amount of work to bring up to par.

If you stepped off of a renovated DL 757, 737, or domestic 763 (now front to back AVOD) onto one of these nasty old 5500s, you'd strain to imagine you were still flying the same airline - and that is the problem.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineTimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7931 times:
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The exact breakdown is:

19 5500 Active
3 5500 Stored @ MZJ
22 Total 5500

9 5600 Domestic 20-22F/162Y configuration
2 5600 Domestic 16J/144Y configuration
6 5600 NRT-based 16J/144Y configuration
6 5600 NRT-based 20J/162Y configuration
23 Total 5600

It's also important to note at this time only the 747s, 767s, new delivery 737s, and second-hand MD-90s are slated to get AVOD added. All other aircraft are purely rumors, and given the fact that they were not included in the recent press release, I would not expect any of them to get AVOD anytime soon. The NW 757s will likely get their overhead monitors restored as part of the refurbishment, but the A319/A320 fleet will be limited to Wi-Fi only for the near future.


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7919 times:



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
If you stepped off of a renovated DL 757, 737, or domestic 763 (now front to back AVOD) onto one of these nasty old 5500s, you'd strain to imagine you were still flying the same airline - and that is the problem.

Yes, even DL's oldest 752s (several of which are older than the NW 5500s) have a much nicer interior than the NW 5500s. The recovered seats, new PSUs, and cool-white lighting gives these old aircraft a fresh look. The only thing that really shows its age to the average passenger is the old CRT monitors.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7744 times:



Quoting Timf (Reply 17):
new delivery 737s, and second-hand MD-90s are slated to get AVOD added. All other aircraft are purely rumors, and given the fact that they were not included in the recent press release, I would not expect any of them to get AVOD anytime soon.

Um, nothing was said in the PR about any of this. The only time the 737s were talked about was with the winglets. M90s weren't even in the PR. And what is soon? 5 mos? sure, 3 years? yea right.



yep.
User currently offlineTimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7517 times:
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I didn't mean to imply that the MD-90s and 737s were discussed in the press release. We know about the MD-90s because the first one is already done and waiting for STC, and the 737s (there's only two of them) have been mentioned through other sources that I can't recall at this time (the blog maybe?). As far as what "soon" means, I don't see anything happening for at least a year, although it's feasible they might announce additional plans before the 3 years is up.

User currently offlineDLMD90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7433 times:

So are they going to install AVOD in all the recently purchased MD90s and leave the rest of the fleet w/o?

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7417 times:



Quoting Timf (Reply 20):
I didn't mean to imply that the MD-90s and 737s were discussed in the press release. We know about the MD-90s because the first one is already done and waiting for STC, and the 737s (there's only two of them) have been mentioned through other sources that I can't recall at this time (the blog maybe?). As far as what "soon" means, I don't see anything happening for at least a year, although it's feasible they might announce additional plans before the 3 years is up.

Who says they will announce anything? "Upgrading the Pre-merger NWA fleet" could be the announcement. Delta has never said anything about the 90s(AFAIK).
(and I'm not saying it will happen, But i believe DL said in the Q3 report that they want to start to re-config some of the fNWA fleet this year. If this is going to happen then i expect they will add IFE at that time. My point is, It doesn't have to be announced at all or before they start.)



yep.
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3037 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7247 times:

Let's just say, if they are staying, they better start putting lipstick on the the pig.

They will probably do what US did with there ETOPS birds. They got new overhead bins, new CRT screens, new fasten seatbelt/no smoking sign, and the new boeing oxygen mask compartment door(the one that has the speakers on the door, rather than to the side)



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User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7076 times:



Quoting 727forever (Reply 12):
I would take a rag tag worn out interior with a solid well maintained airframe any day over an airplane with a shiny new interior that has been pencil whipped to airworthiness.

And what makes you think the airframes are solidly maintained? Remember they are exnwa aircraft. An airline that replaced all it's knowledgeable verteran aircraft mechanics with rag tag gypsies with an A&P. And not many at that. I remember Richard Anderson making the statement one time that " NW is not in the aircraft maintenance business". Yeah you were right on that statement Richard...I for one am glad to see NW gone...



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
25 YXwatcherMKE : Oh Ok I am have a total brain melt down what is AVOD?
26 USAirALB : Audio-Video-On-Demand
27 YXwatcherMKE : Wow,I knew that and I could not come up with it. Do I ever need sleep!!!
28 Wjcandee : I have to say that this seems a little simplistic. There is "maintained to the minimum required" and then there is "very-well-cared for". DL has a re
29 Wjcandee : Most of those "rag tag gypsies" were the very same people that were "knowledgeable veteran aircraft mechanics" before they crossed the line that thei
30 Transpac787 : The MD90 fleet is small and all ships will get both cabin reconfiguration and AVOD installation.
31 Post contains links Flashmeister : For now. Per this thread, Delta could realistically build the fleet up to something pushing 50 frames. At that point, I don't think that it could be
32 Lightsaber : There is also another issue with the 757, expensive engine maintenance. In particular, for the older engines. I'm not finding the link, but there is
33 Post contains images Transpac787 : The issue at hand were those ships already in the fleet Those ships already in the fleet number 16, which is indeed a very small fleet. Those second-
34 727forever : Exactly. I think FlyDreamliner missed my point. There is a large gap between minimally acceptable and tip top. On one extreme we could use YV as an e
35 Jetjack74 : Actually, according to Richards announcement on DeltaNet last week, the entire A320/319,757(including the 5500 series) fleet will get the Delta interi
36 The777Man : So it seems it's a matter of time before a 5500 aircraft is repainted into DL colors ? If they will refurbish the aircraft, they will surlely repaint
37 Drfix2fly : Interiors well these things take time. I have been on most of the Northwest product now and do agree the 5500 interiors are really.... frayed to say i
38 Bobnwa : Would you by chance be one of the ex NWA mechanics who walked off the job on strike in 2005, then claimed you were locked out months later? The numbe
39 Post contains images Transpac787 : Which speaks little to nothing about the number of deferrals done as opposed to actually fixing the problems, much less the quality of maintenance it
40 Fiveholer : Ok, I don't follow NW/DL very closely but by reading some of the replies in this thread, I am gathering the series numbers have to do with the dating/
41 Bobnwa : Please explain how "cattle car " boarding would affect completion rate. Do you have any numbers that would back up that contention?
42 Post contains images Transpac787 : NW bought 757's in three major blocks. The first delivery subset later came to be known as the "5500 series", as 5500 refers to their ship numbers. N
43 Post contains images Transpac787 : Do you??   Although it does seem I do offer a far more logical explanation as to how on-time was improved, other than the witch-hunt and demonizing
44 Fiveholer : Thank you! I was thinking it was some sort of different config'd interior, etc or something like that. Danny
45 Wjcandee : Sure it does. Because failures to fix problems result in much longer delays when things break than possibly could be gained by improved boarding proc
46 Tommy767 : Turning into a great thread BTW... That is still very good news compared to the current IFE systems the 5500s have...which are none. This however woul
47 Transpac787 : That would be impossible, then. All 5600's have the 6 main / 4 overwing configuration. No 5500's have been painted. It was most definitely a 5600, an
48 Tommy767 : Date was 12/1/09 and left between 5 and 5:30pm MSP-LAX. Not sure of the flight number though...
49 Post contains images Transpac787 : The December stats should be uploaded to BTS in a few days... blah!! No problem though, you can search by departure time. So give it a day or two and
50 AKelley728 : Could this had been an ex-TWA bird? They have the same exit configuration as the 5500 series, have winglets, and are of course in DL paint.
51 Tommy767 : Thanks! I'm interested in finding out the age of the bird. One more clue. It had a decal on one of the bulkheads that said "50 years of flying the pa
52 Bobnwa : On time and completion factor did go up which you seem to agree to. Saying that either of those facts had anything to do with what you call "cattle c
53 DeltaL1011man : Wasn't most of NWs work, at the time of the strike, already being done by 3rd partys? I can't remember but I didn't think that NW was doing alot of M
54 PSU.DTW.SCE : Agreed. Ontime and completion factor are not the primary metrics used to measure maintenance performance and aircraft reliability. Dispatch reliabili
55 Bobnwa : You are correct in this. At the time of the AMFA strike a lot of the work had alrady been farmed out to third parties. NWA hardly skipped a beat when
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