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AirTran Will Not Return To BTV  
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 951 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5469 times:

As mentioned in another thread today, AirTran is launching new daily JAX-BWI service. Looks like the new flights are at the expense of BTV as it has been removed from AirTran's route map. Looks like the only LFC/LCC (whatever you want to call them) at BTV is JetBlue.


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5203 times:
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All surprised , raise their hand.........

Too bad. It really makes me wonder how much brains one has to have to decide what routes to start? Hpw many times have we seen a new route commence with the carrier 'all excited and this will be a real boon for business...' only to see it pulled rather fast?
Gets old after a while!



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5162 times:

Well if a market isnt making money doesnt make sense to keep it for posterity sake. The route planners have a difficult task. For all the focus groups, sampling and raw data they can collect if it doesnt work oit doesnt work. I bet it will come back just later on.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5121 times:



Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Thread starter):
As mentioned in another thread today, AirTran is launching new daily JAX-BWI service. Looks like the new flights are at the expense of BTV as it has been removed from AirTran's route map. Looks like the only LFC/LCC (whatever you want to call them) at BTV is JetBlue.

I question how viable BWI really is as a "hub" for FL. BOS -BWI is under siege. I don't give GRR-BWI much hope if BTV-BWI failed.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6578 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5109 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 3):
I don't give GRR-BWI much hope if BTV-BWI failed.

Why? GRR has an air service market that's 4x the size of BTV. And other markets similar to GRR in size, PWM (smaller), ROC and DAY have maintained BWI service on FL.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5076 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 4):
Why? GRR has an air service market that's 4x the size of BTV. And other markets similar to GRR in size, PWM (smaller), ROC and DAY have maintained BWI service on FL.

BTV is also an easy drive from Montreal. I've seen many people at BTV from Montreal catching cheaper flights around the U.S. If marketed correctly, BTV can be a huge draw. PeoplExpress did it very well from what I recall. That does not guarantee a route's success, though.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineBNAFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5040 times:



Quoting Texan (Reply 5):
BTV is also an easy drive from Montreal. I've seen many people at BTV from Montreal catching cheaper flights around the U.S. If marketed correctly, BTV can be a huge draw. PeoplExpress did it very well from what I recall. That does not guarantee a route's success, though.

While I realize G4 is a totally different business model, does it's Plattsburgh service across the lake from BTV siphon any pax?


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4987 times:



Quoting BNAFlyer (Reply 6):
While I realize G4 is a totally different business model, does it's Plattsburgh service across the lake from BTV siphon any pax?

I would expect it to, but don't have any facts to back it up. Honestly, I don't know how it could survive without passenger creep from Montreal.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4862 times:
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Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 2):
Well if a market isnt making money doesnt make sense to keep it for posterity sake. The route planners have a difficult task. For all the focus groups, sampling and raw data they can collect if it doesnt work oit doesnt work. I bet it will come back just later on.

It just makes me wonder, as much money they get, they may as well throw darts at a map. Success rate would be about the same, lol.

I understand variables ( fuel and such) can make the most profitable route a dog, or number one employer in a place shutting down. Or as happened to Horizon/QX in '85. Did the research and started PSC-SFO, only to have PSA start same in late '85. Needless to say, QX didn't stay in it long.

Perhaps they should pay 'em on a routes results and see what happens lol. Anyway, that's it for now.  



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4787 times:

I'm not surprised either, but the word was that FL would be back sometime this year. Guess not.


In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

Hey, it sucks for BTV. But, GSP isn't (and never was) on FL's, WN's, or B6's route maps despite continuing growth, robust business activity and a catchment area that can easily encompass parts of 2 other major metro areas in addition to its own immediate region, so we feel your pain.


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4486 times:



Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 10):
a catchment area that can easily encompass parts of 2 other major metro areas in addition to its own immediate region, so we feel your pain.

This can be reversed to say that two major metro areas have a catchment area that has the GSP area covered. GSP has adequate service as opposed to say DAB or MLB.



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3795 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4256 times:



Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 10):
Hey, it sucks for BTV. But, GSP isn't (and never was) on FL's, WN's, or B6's route maps despite continuing growth, robust business activity and a catchment area that can easily encompass parts of 2 other major metro areas in addition to its own immediate region, so we feel your pain.

Are you related to ERJ170? Because he turned aaany thread into an RDU thread.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 3):
I question how viable BWI really is as a "hub" for FL. BOS -BWI is under siege. I don't give GRR-BWI much hope if BTV-BWI failed.

It's got to be teetering on "hub" status. I think I read that 30% of their operation is BWI. GRR should be a much bigger market than BTV.


User currently offlineJBAirwaysFan From United States of America, joined May 2009, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4153 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 12):
It's got to be teetering on "hub" status. I think I read that 30% of their operation is BWI. GRR should be a much bigger market than BTV.

I believe BWI is a secondary hub along with MCO.



In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4137 times:

They weren't even marketing it as BTV it was "Montreal Area"


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User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4088 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 12):
Are you related to ERJ170? Because he turned aaany thread into an RDU thread.

Nope.... Just sayin'...

Besides, SOMEBODY's got to keep GSP "out there", because city/airport leaders sure aren't.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently onlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1540 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3925 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 12):
I think I read that 30% of their operation is BWI.

FL has grown BWI a lot but that's definitely not true. You may have read that 30% of FL's operation does not involve ATL, which is basically correct. On a day like tomorrow about 59% of flights involve ATL, 16% involve MCO, 15% involve BWI, and 9% involve MKE.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3907 times:



Quoting FL787 (Reply 16):
FL has grown BWI a lot but that's definitely not true. You may have read that 30% of FL's operation does not involve ATL, which is basically correct. On a day like tomorrow about 59% of flights involve ATL, 16% involve MCO, 15% involve BWI, and 9% involve MKE.

FL did you see the investors day slides in January i believe, it clearly says BWI is 29% of the flying and operations for FL, thats why those on the inside have been surprised by BWI not becoming the official second hub and fourth crew base before MKE. Now ill agree that probably on a day to day it may fluctuate a bit but it definitely is a lot more action and busier then even Orlando



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently onlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1540 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3888 times:



Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 17):
FL did you see the investors day slides in January i believe, it clearly says BWI is 29% of the flying and operations for FL,

Not for flights or capacity it's not.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 17):
thats why those on the inside have been surprised by BWI not becoming the official second hub and fourth crew base before MKE.

For pilots I wouldn't be surprised to see it as the third crew base. But I bet it would be the opposite of MKE and they would make it 717 only.

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 17):
Now ill agree that probably on a day to day it may fluctuate a bit but it definitely is a lot more action and busier then even Orlando

Orlando always has more flights than BWI. MCO is normally in the upper 50s while BWI is high 40s or low 50s. On weekends MCO jumps to the 60s or 70s and BWI falls to the lower 40s. Check out Flightstats.com:

http://www.flightstats.com/go/Airline/airlineScorecard.do

Just type FL in the scorecard box.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3869 times:



Quoting FL787 (Reply 18):
For pilots I wouldn't be surprised to see it as the third crew base. But I bet it would be the opposite of MKE and they would make it 717 only.

Yeah ive been hearing that it might become a 717 base. It wont be one for Flight attendants till the contract and the whole virtual base issue is worked out. Though it would be nice as a hard base. I know many who would opt in there much more then the MKE base.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineB595 From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2009, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

The stats for AirTran's BTV-BWI service exceeded expectations last July and August, according to this story:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...or-AirTran-will-not-return-in-2010

It claims that GRR won because of a superior incentive package, not because BTV couldn't support the BWI service.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2853 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3633 times:



Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Thread starter):
Looks like the only LFC/LCC (whatever you want to call them) at BTV is JetBlue.

And when you remember just how small of a market BTV is, they are very lucky to have even one LCC! 4x daily to JFK and daily to MCO on full size jets is nothing to take for granted...

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 1):
All surprised , raise their hand.........

Of course we aren't surprised. After all, this is the airline that has yanked flights from many of the smallest markets (DAB, SAV, etc.) that it has served. Yet, we still see FL at BMI and MLI, and those shocking new flights to the likes of CRW and TYS seem to be sticking around...

Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 2):
I bet it will come back just later on.

I'm not so sure. AirTran hasn't shown much willingness to give markets a second chance. In their mind, if it doesn't work out the first time, it won't ever work..

Quoting Enilria (Reply 3):
I question how viable BWI really is as a "hub" for FL. BOS -BWI is under siege. I don't give GRR-BWI much hope if BTV-BWI failed.

Before they began flying internationally from BWI, I would have agreed with you. But FL now offers nonstops to CUN, NAS, and MBJ - when was the last time Baltimoreans enjoyed this much service to foreign hotspots? Between serving int'l markets, SJU, and smaller markets that WN doesn't fly to (PWM, SRQ, etc.) I'd say FL has really carved out a nice niche for itself at BWI. I think as long as they stay away from BWI to MDW or HOU WN shouldn't pose too great a threat...

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 10):
GSP isn't (and never was) on FL's, WN's, or B6's route maps despite continuing growth, robust business activity and a catchment area that can easily encompass parts of 2 other major metro areas in addition to its own immediate region, so we feel your pain.

But Allegiant has all of the major Florida markets covered from GSP. What more could you support? Another airline flying full size jets to Florida? B6 to JFK and BOS? I'd say GSP has a very reasonable level of service...

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 11):
GSP has adequate service as opposed to say DAB or MLB.

Absolutely. GSP is well connected to the important Texan (DFW/IAH), Southern (CLT/ATL), Midwestern (ORD/DTW/CLE/CVG), and Eastern seabord (IAD/DCA/PHL/EWR/LGA) hubs, plus you have Allegiant serving the major Floridian markets of Orlando, Tampa Bay, Southwest Florida, and the Gold Coast (FLL). DAB and MLB, on the other hand, only have service to ATL and CLT. More service would be welcome, although numerous past attempts have not worked out.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3481 times:

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 12):
Are you related to ERJ170? Because he turned aaany thread into an rdu thread.

I resemble that remark and I have not hijacked a thread in a LONG time..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 21):
But Allegiant has all of the major Florida markets covered from GSP. What more could you support? Another airline flying full size jets to Florida? B6 to JFK and BOS? I'd say GSP has a very reasonable level of service...

I'm just saying we need service on G4 (or ANYONE else) to a destination BESIDES Florida!! You're right - G4 pretty much has Florida covered from GSP. Give us LAS or something else.... PLEASE!



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineflytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3358 times:

Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 14):

They weren't even marketing it as BTV it was "Montreal Area"

While it was likely done, maybe 100 miles is too far for advertising purposes. 50 or 60 miles is maybe the farthest one can push it for advertising.

They anways only do that for CAK for Cleveland area, but CAK is really Akron-Canton. If they put Akron-Canton on their website drop down but not Cleveland, I'm thinking someone looking to fly into Cleveland unfamiliar with OH geography might not select CAK Akron-Canton.

Given how close Dayton and Cincinnati and the overlap, I'm suprised they don't advertise Dayton-Cincinnati or C-D for DAY. Let's face it, they went to DAY to also capture some Cincinnati. At one time TV stations in Cincinnati used to be carried in well inside the Dayton market, and vice versa, like Baltimore and DC. If its that close, its close.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 21):
I think as long as they stay away from BWI to MDW or HOU WN shouldn't pose too great a threat...

They might pose a threat on certain routes, including nonstop flights to the west, e.g. Seattle and Los Angeles, or other cities, where it's less of a connection based itinery and a real O&D between the two cities, I'm guessing.

Also if WN starts CLT-BWI service, it'd impact FL's CLT-BWI. If WN did CVG-BWI, it'd impact FL's DAY-BWI.





[Edited 2010-02-04 22:45:44]

25 Post contains links B595 : Here's a more comprehensive story from the Burlington Free Press: http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...-won-t-return-to-Vermont-this-year Fair-use q
26 Atlwest1 : If this unfortunate move has to do with not enough equipment to meet expansion plans for the year, then perhaps there might be a couple of planes that
27 JBAirwaysFan : Absolutely! BTV is beyond lucky to have JetBlue giving them what they have. Yes, past attemps have failed. I think we may get another couple of shots
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