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Ntsb Reports On Colgan 3407 Crash  
User currently offlineBUFjets From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 231 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10137 times:

The initial report puts most of the blame on improper action on the part of the captain.......

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/943132.html

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1901 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10143 times:

I also read that the F/O was texting prior to takeoff...

Now, would THAT cause the plane to crash, NO. However it is a violation of the 'sterile cockpit' that needs to be present while at critical moments of the flight.

This will never end.

Have a look at this post:

Pilots Or Slaves? 'Flying Cheap' On PBS (by 797 Feb 2 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Cheers



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineZRB2 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9984 times:

This is pretty easy to understand, even without any knowledge of aviation and engineering. Basically, the pilot was ill-prepared to handle stall recovery. The F/O was not feeling well and both were way too chatty...like a nervous chatter towards the end about the weather conditions...and complacent at the same time. They managed to be completely unaware of the slowing aircraft. All the underlying stuff will hopefully be addressed (i.e training, fatigue, pay, etc..) I still remember this like yesterday. It crashed less than a mile from my sister's house.

User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9930 times:

What a tragedy. Why would the pilot pull back when the stick shaker activated? Is that a typical response to the stick shaker when the a/c is at a low altitude? If so, that wouldn't make any sense....

User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9881 times:

There's a live webcast of the NTSB hearing if you want to listen to it.

http://www.ntsb.gov



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9868 times:



Quoting 797 (Reply 1):
I also read that the F/O was texting prior to takeoff...

Now, would THAT cause the plane to crash, NO. However it is a violation of the 'sterile cockpit' that needs to be present while at critical moments of the flight.

It depends when it was done...sterile cockpit doesn't apply from the moment you board, which is technically "prior to takeoff."

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 3):
Why would the pilot pull back when the stick shaker activated? Is that a typical response to the stick shaker when the a/c is at a low altitude?

It's typical for someone who isn't trained to fly because it's a natural reaction to heading for the ground. Pilots, however, should be trained to not do this.

Tom.


User currently offlineDstefanc From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 63 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9839 times:

Here is another article on the topic.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/02/02...al.crash.inquiry/index.html?hpt=T2

Damian


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9683 times:



Quoting 797 (Reply 1):
I also read that the F/O was texting prior to takeoff...

Do you have a source, or is that a rumor that you may be spreading? For every link that's been posted here, and every story I have read about this crash, yours is the first I've read about texting. Don't spread rumors, back your statement up with a source, or don't post it.


User currently offlineMUWarriors From United States of America, joined May 2005, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9669 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 7):

Do you have a source, or is that a rumor that you may be spreading? For every link that's been posted here, and every story I have read about this crash, yours is the first I've read about texting. Don't spread rumors, back your statement up with a source, or don't post it.

They were and are talking about this during the NTSB board meeting. I doubt if it's a rumor if it's in the NSTB report.


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9642 times:

I doubt it as well. That's why it's important to back up a statement like that by stating the source.

User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21796 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9642 times:



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 3):
Why would the pilot pull back when the stick shaker activated? Is that a typical response to the stick shaker when the a/c is at a low altitude? If so, that wouldn't make any sense....

Depends on the airplane. Some do require the nose to be held up, not so much to increase the pitch but to prevent it from decreasing too much. Minimal altitude loss is the name of the game when it comes to stall recoveries these days (which ultimately may not be a good thing), and so the brisk pitch down that you'd normally see in light trainers doesn't necessarily carry over into larger aircraft.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDstefanc From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 63 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9594 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
Depends on the airplane. Some do require the nose to be held up, not so much to increase the pitch but to prevent it from decreasing too much. Minimal altitude loss is the name of the game when it comes to stall recoveries these days (which ultimately may not be a good thing), and so the brisk pitch down that you'd normally see in light trainers doesn't necessarily carry over into larger aircraft.

-Mir

Are you sure about that? When I was taking my check ride, the FAA examiner asked my about stalls and the main reason why he asked me that question (he explained) was for me to remember that no matter what, if I'm stalling I want to push the nose down. However, that was for a Private Pilot's license, so you stating that it's different for large aircraft might be right. I was just surprised to read that.

Damian


User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9444 times:
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Quoting ZRB2 (Reply 2):
he F/O was not feeling well and both were way too chatty...l



Quoting ZRB2 (Reply 2):
All the underlying stuff will hopefully be addressed (i.e training, fatigue, pay, etc..)

Hopefully they'll address poor decision making, i.e. the FO's decision to go skiing in Washington the night before, and redeye in for her flight.

How would have paying these same pilots 2x have prevented the accident?



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9410 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 13):
Hopefully they'll address poor decision making, i.e. the FO's decision to go skiing in Washington the night before, and redeye in for her flight.

This has always been my point about "pilot fatigue" in that in many cases, it's the pilot's own actions that cause it (especially during layovers in "fun" locales), not a lack of a suitable rest period if used correctly. Skiing is tiring, then taking a redeye back east so you could work all day? Irresponsible, and not the fault of Colgan or the FAA or whatever, unless it's because these entities don't require their pilots to use common sense with regard to safety...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9342 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
Some do require the nose to be held up, not so much to increase the pitch but to prevent it from decreasing too much

So, in this case, additional thrust would be required to mitigate the stall, correct? If so, I wonder why the pilot wouldn't have increased thrust while pulling back. It seems as though that's step number 2 after pulling back upon stick shaker activation. Instead, it sounds like the F/O did more to exascerbate the stall by increasing the flap setting along with releasing the gear....


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9306 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
This has always been my point about "pilot fatigue" in that in many cases, it's the pilot's own actions that cause it (especially during layovers in "fun" locales), not a lack of a suitable rest period if used correctly. Skiing is tiring, then taking a redeye back east so you could work all day? Irresponsible, and not the fault of Colgan or the FAA or whatever, unless it's because these entities don't require their pilots to use common sense with regard to safety...

We agree here. The trouble is that, when used responsibly, commuting is a huge perk for pilots, and taking it away may be a change that is not compensable with money. I would expect any effort to curtail commuting to meet stiff opposition from both carriers and pilots.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBUFjets From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9119 times:

Yep, there is definitely a source for the FO texting. Here's a link.....

http://www.buffalonews.com/nationalworld/national/story/942829.html

ZRB2- my sister lives about a mile from the crash site as well.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8929 times:



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 15):
So, in this case, additional thrust would be required to mitigate the stall, correct?

The only way out of a stall is to lower the angle of attack on the wing. If you're not going to drop the nose, the only way to do that is to increase airspeed, which means more thrust.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 15):
If so, I wonder why the pilot wouldn't have increased thrust while pulling back

Thrust management is what got the flight into trouble...it was failing to bring thrust up when they levelled off and put out more drag that caused the stall in the first place.

Tom.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8809 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 3):
Why would the pilot pull back when the stick shaker activated?

If he expected tailplane icing to be the culprit, he might have reasoned that pulling the yoke back was the correct solution to the problem.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 15):
Instead, it sounds like the F/O did more to exascerbate the stall by increasing the flap setting

That she made a change to the flap setting at all without being instructed to do so by the captain/pilot flying is cause for concern.



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently onlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8667 times:



Quoting Dstefanc (Reply 11):
Are you sure about that? When I was taking my check ride, the FAA examiner asked my about stalls and the main reason why he asked me that question (he explained) was for me to remember that no matter what, if I'm stalling I want to push the nose down. However, that was for a Private Pilot's license, so you stating that it's different for large aircraft might be right. I was just surprised to read that.

The difference is that the airlines teach stall recovery techniques based on initiating recovery at the first sing of an impending stall (usually the stick shaker), and not recovery from an actual aerodynamically stalled condition. The idea is to power out of the condition and minimize altitude loss. Typically this leads to a recovery procedure that requires pilots to hold the pitch attitude of the aircraft while adding power, and usually means holding some backpressure in the controls to maintain the pitch.

In an actual stall you would still want to lower the nose, even in a large transport category aircraft. As a result of Colgan 3407, the airline I fly for has added emphasis to this point during recurrent training.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
If he expected tailplane icing to be the culprit, he might have reasoned that pulling the yoke back was the correct solution to the problem.

Then he was lacking in systems knowledge. The stick shaker does not activate for tailplane stalls, only wing.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8588 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
That she made a change to the flap setting at all without being instructed to do so by the captain/pilot flying is cause for concern.

I don't know if that's true for this particular procedure in a Dash-8, but there are non-normal procedures where it's acceptable to execute memory items without explicit verbal command for each step from the PIC.

Tom.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21796 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8332 times:



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 15):
If so, I wonder why the pilot wouldn't have increased thrust while pulling back. It seems as though that's step number 2 after pulling back upon stick shaker activation.

Thrust is actually step 1. Step 2 is to pitch for the recovery attitude, which means letting the nose come down a bit, but not as much as it would like to. Of course, the two happen pretty much simultaneously in practice.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSAS-A321 From Denmark, joined Mar 2002, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7637 times:

NTSB's animation of the accident can give you a good idea of how they controlled the aircraft. Data was taken from the FDR and CVR.

NTSB's Colgan Flight 3407 Accident Animation

Without having knowledge of the stall recovery procedure in the Dash 8-Q400 it looks like the NTSB conclusion of the Captain stalling the aircraft is correct. They also did not pay attention to the airspeed, as there was no increase in throttle setting after extending the gear and flaps 10 was selected shortly before entering the stall. Throttle was not increased before the stick shaker came on.

[Edited 2010-02-03 03:35:16]


It's Scandinavian
User currently offlineAlwaysontherun From Netherlands Antilles, joined Jan 2010, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7550 times:



Quoting ZRB2 (Reply 2):
The F/O was not feeling well

That is, I imagine, hard to judge for a pilot: whether you feel good enough or not.
A broken fingernail or a bad hair day, no prob. But a good nausea or a severe cold could perhaps influence your performance.
Should be a major consideration for a pilot to assess what exactly that borderline is………and then there´s probably the commercial pressure if you decide not to fly unless they have a spare pilot on stand-by.

Quoting ZRB2 (Reply 2):
It crashed less than a mile from my sister's house.



Quoting BUFjets (Reply 17):
ZRB2- my sister lives about a mile from the crash site as well.

Perhaps you two are related, no?

### "I am always on the Run"###



"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
User currently offlineTtailfan From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5750 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 13):
Hopefully they'll address poor decision making, i.e. the FO's decision to go skiing in Washington the night before, and redeye in for her flight.

How would have paying these same pilots 2x have prevented the accident?

I agree. This crash was brought on by poor decisions and lack of attention. It was a crew issue. I know that when you're not feeling well, you are not at peak performance. However, neither should you be in such a state that you create this kind of situation either.

Whether it was poor training, poor cockpit resource management, any other distraction (ala NWA overfly of MSP for instance)...when you are at the pointy end, it is your job to be "on your game" and to keep your situational and operational awareness. To allow the speed of that aircraft to deteriorate to a stall with two pilots having instruments directly in front of them clearly displaying this fact if they took the time to notice, is a clear indicator that it was the human element that was amiss on that flightdeck that terrible day.

I'm not bashing the crew, may they rest in peace. I'm simply stating that the short comings of this crew have to be analyzed and corretive action inplemented to prevent this type of thing from happening again. I get tired of the crew always being blamed in many cases, but in this instance, it is at their feet that the blame must be placed. Let's not let the deaths of their passengers and crew be in vain...learn what we can, change what we can to mitigate this type of incident in the future.


25 DualQual : Mir and Alias brought up some good points. Every airplane responds a bit differently in the stall/approach to stall and the recovery techniques, while
26 Ttailfan : All this is true, but it doesn't mitigate the failures of the crew to properly manage the aircraft. As flight crew with a type rating for that specif
27 DualQual : You'll find no disagreement from me on that.
28 Jonathan L : That's pretty scary to watch. Why would anybody react in the way that he did? It looks crazy.
29 Rolfen : I dont know what kind of *** you people are discussing, but the moment the stick shaker went off, the pilot pulled back, then he gave huge rudder inpu
30 MPDPilot : Just to add my two cents about aircraft in stalls, having just completed some CRJ Training. With a stick shaker and a stick pusher there are a few th
31 Rolfen : I just noticed that at the moment the stick shaker went off, the autopilot got disconnected too. That might explain the difference in stick position.
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