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Airlines Dominating Certain Markets  
User currently offlineLxmd11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 149 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3448 times:

I wanted to see how many airlines you guys could think of that dominate certain markets or have a strong presence there. A couple that i could think of are:

From the US:

AA - South America
DL/UA - Far East Asia
CO/DL - Europe

From Europe:

IB - Central/South America
AF - North Africa

Couldnt think of many in Asia or Africa. Please dont say something like QF and Australia, airlines home countries are a given.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2865 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

EK, with all of its A380s, is well on its way to dominating ALL of the world's markets  


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3294 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 1):
K, with all of its A380s, is well on its way to dominating ALL of the world's markets

Why would anyone want to fly EK when you can find much cheaper...
(I dont know about the rest of the world,but I know that EK is usually the expensive option around the middle east)



rolf
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3239 times:



Quoting Rolfen (Reply 2):
(I dont know about the rest of the world,but I know that EK is usually the expensive option around the middle east)

Not out here! They are often the cheapest, especially to "secondary" European markets and often Trans Tasman.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3140 times:

DL/US southeast domestic service AA? No MIA is too far south...


Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25291 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3078 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 3):
Quoting Rolfen (Reply 2):
(I dont know about the rest of the world,but I know that EK is usually the expensive option around the middle east)

Not out here! They are often the cheapest, especially to "secondary" European markets and often Trans Tasman.

It's very common for airlines to charge high fares on direct flights to/from their hubs, where they usually have the most convenient and frequent service. But on 6th freedom services connecting at their hubs, their fares are often much lower since on those routes they're competing with many other carriers via numerous other hubs, and often with carriers offering direct or nonstop service. Within the Middle East, most of the bilaterals are also still quite restrictive so there isn't much competition on many routes, which also helps keep fares high compared to Open Skies markets like within the EU.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7530 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3027 times:



Quoting Lxmd11 (Thread starter):
From Europe:

IB - Central/South America

I think it is possible that IB is the strongest airline between Europe and Central and South America, but I think TP will run it pretty close and I doubt that IB dominates this market.

For example TP serves Belo Horizonte, Brasilia, Fortaleza, Natal, Recife and Salvador de Bahia. None of these 6 destinations are amongst the 8 South American cities served by IB. Indeed as TP flies to Caracas, Rio and Sao Paulo that are also served by IB it serves more South American destinations than the Spanish airline.

And here, as another example, is a comparison between IB and AF to South America:

BOG: IB daily. AF daily
CCS: IB daily. AF daily
EZE: IB 3 x daily. AF daily
GIG: IB daily. AF 2 x daily
GRU: IB daily. AF daily
MVD: IB daily
SCL: IB daily. AF daily
UIO: IB daily

(In the above list I have counted 5, 6 and 7 times weekly as 'daily' so as not to over complicate the table. So, for example, the 3 x daily IB service to EZE is actually 17 and not 21 x weekly.)

Then there is KL who operate to LIM which I do not think is served by IB, LH who fly to CCS, EZE and GRU and BA flying to EZE, GIG and GRU. And on the majority of all of these routes there is usually one South American airline operating a reciprocal service.

Of course none of the above reflects the Central America situation. But there other factors come into play. These include the strength of both KL and AF and a number of British airlines including both BA and VS flying all flying to the Caribbean islands in a market sub-segment where IB is not so strong.


User currently offlineSteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

Just a couple thoughts...

Quoting Lxmd11 (Thread starter):
DL/UA - Far East Asia
CO/DL - Europe

In my opinion, if two airlines qualify for the same markets, than neither one is really "dominating" it.

Quoting Lxmd11 (Thread starter):
Please dont say something like QF and Australia, airlines home countries are a given.

Well, essentially none of these should count then. The rest of the examples you give are airlines serving foreign markets from their home country. At the very least, QF should be included as dominating the North American market from Australia. LAX practically looks like a QF hub in the evening.


User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2866 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
It's very common for airlines to charge high fares on direct flights to/from their hubs, where they usually have the most convenient and frequent service. But on 6th freedom services connecting at their hubs, their fares are often much lower since on those routes they're competing with many other carriers via numerous other hubs, and often with carriers offering direct or nonstop service. Within the Middle East, most of the bilaterals are also still quite restrictive so there isn't much competition on many routes, which also helps keep fares high compared to Open Skies markets like within the EU.

Thanks. I think Beirut airport adopted open skies policy in the end of the 90ies. What it means, I am not sure. I also know that EK to Dubai costs about $560, and Al-Jazeera costs $280.
Thanks for your answer  



rolf
User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

Don't forget AC, also dominate Asia and South America, also AC is the dominate player for transborder flights to the US and Canada.

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

I don't think it's proper to suggest dominance (or lack thereof) by an airline of a particular market without taking into account that airline's ATI partners. For instance, UA might be weak to Europe on paper, but that's primarily because they work so closely with the Lufthansa family.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2459 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
Then there is KL who operate to LIM which I do not think is served by IB, LH who fly to CCS, EZE and GRU and BA flying to EZE, GIG and GRU. And on the majority of all of these routes there is usually one South American airline operating a reciprocal service.

LIM is served daily by IB, and UIO-GYE are served daily by KL.

I don't think one could talk about market dominance on Europe-Latam, but IB is clearly the leader.

Another market that is heavily dominated is Belgium-Africa by Brussels Airlines.



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 573 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2414 times:

Quoting Lxmd11 (Thread starter):
CO/DL - Europe

The only area in which CO and DL are comparable over the transatlantic is in number of destinations served. When measured by RPMs, passengers enplaned, flights operated, or revenue, DL is significantly larger.


User currently offlinenormie999 From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2414 times:

Icelandair utterly dominated the Icelandic market for many years. Now Iceland Express is on the scene, FI merely dominates it.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25291 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
I think it is possible that IB is the strongest airline between Europe and Central and South America, but I think TP will run it pretty close and I doubt that IB dominates this market.

TP is only a major player in Brazil for obvious historical reasons. You can't compare TP with IB's extensive service to almost all major countries in Latin America. The last statistics I saw showed IB as by far the largest passenger carrier between Europe and Latin America.


User currently offlineJQFlightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 978 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

JQ/QF - Australia to Japan markets SYD/OOL/CNS - NRT SYD/OOL/CNS - KIX, all with domestic JQ flights that connect in OOL for NRT flight
JQ/QF - Australia to Indonesia SYD/PER - CGK, MEL/SYD/DRW/PER - DPS
JQ/QF - Australia to Singapore SYD/MEL/BNE/ADL/DRW/PER/CNS - SIN
JQ/QF - Australia to USA SYD/MEL/BNE - HNL/LAX/SFO/JFK



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4505 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Quoting Lxmd11 (Thread starter):
From Europe:

IB - Central/South America

I would analyze the [Europe-Central America] scenario:

IB MAD-SJO-MAD...............7x weekly
IB MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD......[4-5]x weekly
KL AMS-PTY-AMS...............5x weekly

Rumor has it that UX MAD-PTY-MAD may come into service shortly.
TACA provides code-share cooperation in order to load IBERIA's flights with passengers coming from the rest of Central America.
COPA provides code-share cooperation in order to load KLM's flights with passengers coming from the rest of Central America.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7530 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2007 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
TP is only a major player in Brazil for obvious historical reasons. You can't compare TP with IB's extensive service to almost all major countries in Latin America

Isn't IB a major player in the rest of South America for very similar historical reasons? And are you saying that I should ignore TP's extensive services to what is very slightly more than half the South American population?

Currently Brazil's population is estimated at 198.7 million. The population of the whole of South America (including Brazil) is estimated at very slightly less than twice this figure at 392.6 million. Therefore Brazil has a fraction more than half of South America's total population. (Of course in geographical area terms Brazil is not quite half of South America. At 8,512,000 sq km it is only 47.6 per cent of South America's 17,864,000 sq km!)

So we have TP serving 6 cities in the slightly more populous half of South America and 3 cities in the the slightly less populous half. But for some reason I cannot compare this with IB who serve 7 cities in the slightly less populous half and only 2 cities in the slightly more populous half. Why not? To me it seems that the operations of these two airlines to South America are very comparable although, as I said earlier

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
I think it is possible that IB is the strongest airline between Europe and Central and South America, but I think TP will run it pretty close and I doubt that IB dominates this market.


User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1938 times:

AA MIA-West Coast US.
AA MIA-DC

Quoting Lxmd11 (Thread starter):
CO/DL - Europe

CO and DL may fly to more destinations but I would not say they dominate over AA. AA is huge in LHR.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25291 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
TP is only a major player in Brazil for obvious historical reasons. You can't compare TP with IB's extensive service to almost all major countries in Latin America

Isn't IB a major player in the rest of South America for very similar historical reasons? And are you saying that I should ignore TP's extensive services to what is very slightly more than half the South American population?

I was referring to the overall network coverage, frequency, and capacity. TP serves 8 cities in South America, 7 of which are in Brazil, and 5 of the 7 have less than daily service. CCS is only 3 weekly. Total TP weekly frequency 52 flights.

IB serves 9 cities in 7 countries in South America, all daily or greater except UIO which is 5 per week. More than daily service to 3 cities, and even more than twice daily to EZE. Total IB weekly frequency to South America 73 flights, 40% more than TP (and many IB flights use larger aircraft).

That doesn't include IB's 7 other destinations in 7 other countries in Latin America (Central America, Mexico, Caribbean). Those flights total 36 weekly, and 4 of the 7 destinations have daily service.

Thus, to Latin America in total:

IB - 109 flights weekly to 16 cities in 14 countries, with daily or greater service to 12 of the 16 cities.
TP - 52 flights weekly to 8 cities in 2 countries, with daily or greater service to only 2 cities.

I still argue that you can't compare TP's service to IB's, either to South America in isolation, or to Latin America as a whole. To Brazil, yes, TP has more flights than IB. But even there, to the two major markets and primary high-yield business traffic destinations, GRU and GIG, IB is very close to TP's total frequency with 18 weekly (11 GRU and 7 GIG) vs. TP's 21 weekly (11 GRU and 10 GIG).


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7530 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
I still argue that you can't compare TP's service to IB's, either to South America in isolation

Thanks for providing this comparison:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Total IB weekly frequency to South America 73 flights, 40% more than TP


Can I add to this:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Thus, to Latin America in total:

IB - 109 flights weekly to 16 cities in 14 countries, with daily or greater service to 12 of the 16 cities.
TP - 52 flights weekly to 8 cities in 2 countries, with daily or greater service to only 2 cities.


AF - 60 flights a week to 7 South American cities and 63 flights a week to Caribbean cities
KL - 23 flights a week to 4 South American destinations and 33 flights a week to Central American and Caribbean destinations

So by itself AF is over 10 per cent bigger to the total area than is IB while AF/KL is over 60 per cent bigger than IB.

When I said

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
and I doubt that IB dominates this market

I was clearly right
But when I originally said

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
I think it is possible that IB is the strongest airline between Europe and Central and South America


I was wrong


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
IB - 109 flights weekly to 16 cities in 14 countries, with daily or greater service to 12 of the 16 cities.
TP - 52 flights weekly to 8 cities in 2 countries, with daily or greater service to only 2 cities.

Very interesting. I never had time to put both together and compare.


User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1764 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1617 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 20):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Thus, to Latin America in total:

IB - 109 flights weekly to 16 cities in 14 countries, with daily or greater service to 12 of the 16 cities.
TP - 52 flights weekly to 8 cities in 2 countries, with daily or greater service to only 2 cities.


AF - 60 flights a week to 7 South American cities and 63 flights a week to Caribbean cities
KL - 23 flights a week to 4 South American destinations and 33 flights a week to Central American and Caribbean destinations

So by itself AF is over 10 per cent bigger to the total area than is IB while AF/KL is over 60 per cent bigger than IB.

We're comparing apples and oranges here. Initially the thread starter was talking about IB dominating Central/South America, and now you're including the Caribbean when calculating flights by AF and KL. None of the Caribbean is considered Central/South America. And aside from Dominican Republic, Cuba and Puerto Rico, the other islands which account for most of the AF/KL frequencies are not considered part of Latin America either.

In the case of KL, you say "33 flights a week to Central American and Caribbean destinations". Of those 33, probably only 5x count as Central America (PTY). The other remaining 28 would be to Dutch-speaking non-Latin Caribbean islands.

Which....

Quoting VV701 (Reply 20):
But when I originally said

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
I think it is possible that IB is the strongest airline between Europe and Central and South America


I was wrong

Again, based on the previous KL Caribbean miscalculation.


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