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TWA FA's: We'll Cross The AA FA's Picket Lines  
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5196 posts, RR: 21
Posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15757 times:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...x-twa-flight-attendants-threa.html

Basically stating: APFA screwed us, now we'll screw them back.


Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
184 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6837 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15736 times:

YIKES...good luck with this one AA.


"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineBNAFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15736 times:

Oh, that won't be pretty at all.

User currently onlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15521 times:

Not going to happen. But it is fun to watch the verbal fireworks.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33182 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15460 times:

As stupid as people who join unions (any union, not just AA's) are, they aren't stupid enough to strike in this environment.


a.
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5196 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15413 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):


As stupid as people who join unions (any union, not just AA's) are,

I joined a union because I had to when I got hired, just the nature of the job. I don't consider myself stupid (a few points shy of genius on several IQ tests).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):


they aren't stupid enough to strike in this environment.

I do agree with you here.



Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25551 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15399 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
As stupid as people who join unions (any union, not just AA's) are, they aren't stupid enough to strike in this environment.

Without my US guild - my union - I would be completely screwed now.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15810 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15315 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
As stupid as people who join unions (any union, not just AA's) are, they aren't stupid enough to strike in this environment.

I wouldn't go that far, but many unions these days are causing more harm than good. It is like in some cases the unions exists for the union's sake and screwing the company is the main goal.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5196 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15256 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):


I wouldn't go that far, but many unions these days are causing more harm than good. It is like in some cases the unions exists for the union's sake and screwing the company is the main goal.

Some hotheads in every union. Most of us can differnentiate between BS and common sense. In this case however, it's one union against another, basically a revenge stance. But hey, if I feel that someone screwed me over (and I'm not saying this is strictly the case here, decent arguments on both sides) and I had a chance a few years later to "even the score", I can't with 100% certainty say I wouldn't give it a go.

[Edited 2010-02-04 13:08:32]


Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15256 times:

Good for them! Would be awesome to see. And I also completely agree with Mark's sentiment's above.


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineCrosscheck007 From Poland, joined Jan 2010, 278 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15102 times:

I will first say that it would be a terrible idea for them to strike...in this economy, in this market, it would get them no-where; they would be their own undoing.


That being said, IF they were to strike, then the ex-TW f/as should not cross those picket lines, but rather act with their fellow f/as united. The ex-TW f/as are exactly that, "EX"-Trans World. They are ALL American and should act as such. Is there no such thing as unity and brother/sisterood?

Cheers,

007



Je l'attends pas un homme. J'apporte le parti, j'apporte le feu d'artifice.
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4056 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15022 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
As stupid as people who join unions (any union, not just AA's) are, they aren't stupid enough to strike in this environment.

Thank you for saying that, Mark! It is ridiculous for people to even think about striking. You know, there's been much talk about AA filing bankruptcy even with the cash reserves they have. If this strike were to happen, this would be one way AA could bring down their high operating costs. It's a sad situation for everyone involved.

[Edited 2010-02-04 13:27:18]

User currently offlineNws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15030 times:

I would pay good money to sit down at DFW and watch this happen. Would love to see how the TW FAs screw with the AA ones.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
I joined a union because I had to when I got hired, just the nature of the job.

+1 I was required to join when I took the job. I don't really like the union but I respect the fact that the majority of my co-workers do.


User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15008 times:



Quoting Crosscheck007 (Reply 10):
That being said, IF they were to strike, then the ex-TW f/as should not cross those picket lines, but rather act with their fellow f/as united. The ex-TW f/as are exactly that, "EX"-Trans World. They are ALL American and should act as such. Is there no such thing as unity and brother/sisterood?

I don't know much about TWA's history, but if you read the article in the first post and the comments, it appears that the TWA attendants were screwed by APFA when TWA merged with AA. They have a score to settle, and this is a good opportunity for them.

If nothing else, the threat might force the APFA to accept things they wouldn't have otherwise.


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5913 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 14767 times:



Quoting Crosscheck007 (Reply 10):
Is there no such thing as unity and brother/sisterood?

If you were aware of how the integration went, you'd not ask this question. Because the AA union clearly demonstrated that there is NO SUCH THING.
And I'm from Dallas, and formerly a loyal AA flyer.

I sent MAH a personal message, explaining why not all the people in unions are stupid (though, having been in a union, I can tell you that MANY of them are!). But now that I read the replies, I see a lot of you said it for me!

I generally agree with the sentiment that unions have outlived their purpose. There WAS a purpose.

But, I say good for the TeeDub F/A's. Way to stick it to the company that promised you gold, and handed you a toilet brush.


User currently offlineB767300ER From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14362 times:
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Asa former TWA F/A I had to join the union to work at TWA but happily I saw the writing on the wall prior
to the AAtake over inspite of what my union was telling us and the APFA were promising us. I left for LH
and now at DL and am happy for the move(s). No furlough or threats. Those TWA F/A have no loyality to
the APFA and they shouldn't expect any. If they go out on strike, so be it, there are many F/A out there
looking for employment. APFA didn't give a damn for seniority so all is fare, lets the games begine, watching
from the side lines as an employed F/A.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6157 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14285 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
As stupid as people who join unions (any union, not just AA's) are, they aren't stupid enough to strike in this environment

I am a union member and I have to be if I want to work where I do.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14155 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 14):
If you were aware of how the integration went, you'd not ask this question. Because the AA union clearly demonstrated that there is NO SUCH THING.

ALL union represented employee work groups were "integrated" as their UNIONS wanted. AA (the company) had NOTHING to do with merging ANY union represented work group.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 14):
But, I say good for the TeeDub F/A's. Way to stick it to the company that promised you gold, and handed you a toilet brush.

This comment seems to contradict your previous comment. AA (the company) said from day-1 of the TW purchase that the UNIONS would handle ALL integration issues for their represented work groups. AA did not promise gold nor did it hand them a toilet brush. If anybody has a problem (or praise) with how the integration of unionized employees was handled at AA, they should look to the UNIONS, not the company.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
I am a union member and I have to be if I want to work where I do.

Union membership is NOT "required" at AA; however, if a "closed shop" any non-member is required to pay "contract maintenance fees" to the representing union. For example: a non-APA pilot pays ~83% of "normal" union dues.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33182 posts, RR: 71
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14078 times:

There is never a requirement to join unions. The Supreme Court made that pretty clear in Pattern Makers v. National Labor Relations Board.

If more people would simply quit joining these ridiculous organizations, they would weaken and dissolve. If you don't agree with your union, then quit! You have the right, you won't lose your job.

I apologize for my generalization as union members as "stupid," I realize many don't agree with the unions they belong to, but nobody is forced to join.



a.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17778 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14063 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
If more people would simply quit joining these ridiculous organizations, they would weaken and dissolve.

Between people wising up and Economics 101, they're going away anyway for the most part

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
Without my US guild - my union - I would be completely screwed now.

What industry?

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 9):
Would be awesome to see.

  

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 14):
Because the AA union clearly demonstrated that there is NO SUCH THING.

And USAPA, and NW mechanics, and many others



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15810 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14028 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Between people wising up and Economics 101, they're going away anyway for the most part

Agreed. Back when you had kids working 12 hour shifts in unsanitary and unsafe factories for a meager wage unions were a necessary thing. Now it seems that they are only out to bleed the companies dry, seemingly forgetting that in general what is good for the company is good for the workers.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 582 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13758 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
Agreed. Back when you had kids working 12 hour shifts in unsanitary and unsafe factories for a meager wage unions were a necessary thing.

FYI, the reason those conditions no longer exist is to a large extent because of organized labor, not in spite of it.

I am no union apologist but it never fails to amaze me how many people are reflexively anti-union even at the end of a decade in which the wages of the average American worker have decreased (in real terms, not nominal, mind you) and a 30 year period in which income inequality in the United States has grown at an exponential rate. An interesting parallel with the steady decline of union membership in the last 30 years as well. Just food for thought.

Regarding the AA/APFA issue, it is what it is. The President has limited powers of intervention and I suspect that politically, he will have no choice but to use them. Even if a strike did occur, bringing back the TW flight attendants would be ruinous for labor relations at AA if we are to assume that the strike would eventually end and the APFA folks would come back to work.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25551 posts, RR: 86
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13681 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
What industry?

More than somewhat off-topic? I am a very strong union man and I have worked in more than one industry and in different countries.

I have also taken a union to court - and won.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineWN700Driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13663 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
As stupid as people who join unions (any union, not just AA's) are, they aren't stupid enough to strike in this environment.

First, it's not as simple as all that, as some have already pointed out. You'll never hear anything nice about unions from me, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily stupid to join one. Selfish, and opportunistic, yes, but not always stupid. Besides, many shops here in the states are closed, so one must join a union for a minimum of six months (in most cases) before one can opt out.

Second, yes it would disasterously stupid for the APFA, or any other group, to strike in this case. But in spite of what I just posted, do not underestimate how short - sighted these people are. A strike is certainly possible. And a great casus belli for that BK AA is starting to consider as an option. . .


User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 582 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13626 times:
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Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 23):
And a great casus belli for that BK AA is starting to consider as an option. . .

Nice insight. A good question to ask from there is what a journey through Chapter 11 would be like in the present financial and industry environment.


25 OzarkD9S : Apology accepted. I kinda hoped this thread would not turn into an anti- vs. pro- union thread, rather we could discuss what this meant for the AA ne
26 Post contains links and images JQFlightie : Are you serious? Stupid? i dont think so, i am a Union member... and actually im the go to person in my base on union matters! So your saying that im
27 nws2002 : No, but I would still have to pay dues. Might as well get the meager benefits if I have to pay anyways.
28 WN700Driver : In a word. . . Rough. Right now, an educated guess would tell me that Shareholder Loss is the biggest block to entering BK. For those that think prid
29 goldenstate : Agreed. I would simply add the thought that AA would theoretically enter BK at a time when the industry appears to be emerging from a downturn rather
30 Buddys747 : Care to show some proof of that? In a closed shop private sector at will state, you are required to belong to the union, you don't have to carry card
31 Crosscheck007 : Okay, both those statements are utterly childish. These flight attendants are older than dust, isn't it past the point of playing kindergarten games?
32 Post contains images WarRI1 : Silly, silly and so immature. Many oviously do agree with their union.   
33 Post contains images WarRI1 : Some of the childish statements amaze me also.       Realistic assessment, certainly not hysterical, like some.
34 MAH4546 : It has nothing to do with a particular unions. All unions are shams, and its a disgrace that in the year 2010 the government continues to allow these
35 Post contains images WarRI1 : Once again, hysterical and so silly. The interests of a corporation and its employees are naturally aligned? I now have an upset stomach.   
36 Post contains links MaverickM11 : I think it's perfectly relevant. Has your union created jobs? Take your pick: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/feb2010/unio-f03.shtml
37 WarRI1 : I do not recall unions being job creators, that is the job of the business leaders. The job of the union is to protect and improve the union members
38 QQflyboy : I'll repost my comments from that article here, with some additional information: I still, to this day, don't understand ex-TWA flight attendants' ang
39 LMP737 : I wonder what's more stupid. Joining a union or getting on plane that maybe flown and/or maintained by someone in a union.
40 Post contains images JCS17 : Yuck. I agree with you.   My best friend's mother from childhood is a very senior militant AA F/A. From Crandall (when AMR was raking in the dough)
41 Post contains images WarRI1 : It does not surprise me really, that such a statement has been made here. Man! now we are advocating losing the freedom to join a union. How about th
42 FlyPNS1 : What's so ridiculous about them? The fact that they helped create a middle class and brought tremendous prosperity to American workers. Or the fact t
43 Post contains images WarRI1 : I suggest you discuss that directly with your friend who was supported by union wages, see how he feels. In fact sit down and discuss it with him and
44 WarRI1 : Well said, we know who is ridiculous, not the unions and the benefits won by them, not given, hard fought, hard won. All still benefit from them toda
45 MaverickM11 : Funny you mention free elections, since unions want to get rid of those. Exactly.
46 EWRkid1990 : I have to fly on AA in less than a month...and it would be MIGHTY nice if there were F/A's onboard so my flight could get off the ground. -EWRkid1990
47 cpd : Without mine, the powers that be would get away with outrageous things. I'm not required to join - it's my choice, and the choice of my colleagues. T
48 WN700Driver : Would these benefits include labor so rediculously expensive that it now has to be outsourced? That's no joke either. Ask an out of work mechanic or
49 MaverickM11 : Especially in a world of 10+% of unemployment and a company that doesn't exactly have cash to burn
50 Post contains images mariner : I never understood it to be the function of a union to create jobs.    mariner
51 WarRI1 : You should be able to do better than that. That says nothing and means nothing. Once again, read carefully, unions were created to PROTECT, AND IMPRO
52 skyguyB727 : I wonder if, instead of hiring strike breakers, AA will fly planes around the world empty like they did in 1993. It was so strange to see the tag "Fli
53 WN700Driver : Fair enough. But what you're not seeing is that those things are not protected at all when unions pull shennanigans like this in addition to pricing
54 WarRI1 : I do not know who said that about AA about boldness etc. It was not me. We call it a living wage, you know where you can raise your children in a goo
55 WN700Driver : entitled, huh?
56 WarRI1 : Over simplistic, one has to go back to the day when nobody was anything but a Serf, an economic slave, so easily forgotten now. Things improved for t
57 FlyASAGuy2005 : For what reason exactly? I would applaude any of these people that cross the 'line' right on into work. The union didn't seem to care much 9 years ag
58 WarRI1 : Just as a returning vet who fought for us is entitled. When you fight as a union for the benefits, you are entitled to them. As old as the history of
59 spacecadet : All I know is before the New York State Nursing Association got involved, nurses in New York were working 18 or 24 hour shifts instead of 12. It was t
60 ckfred : Take it from someone whose father: a) started out as a union member, and b) spent 7 years in labor relations executive for a Fortune 50 company My fa
61 MaverickM11 : Why won't you tell me what industry you're in? It's not like I'm asking for you job title or your salary. Are you embarrassed? Speaking of saying not
62 mariner : Why on earth should I be embarrassed? LOL I just don't think it is anything to do with this thread. This thread is about FA's possibly crossing a pic
63 Jacobin777 : I think that's the biggest problem with most (but not all) modern-day unions. The lack of incentive to excel or move "forward". Many non-union employ
64 NWAESC : Maybe you should post your own thoughts, and not your dad's. You're an adult now; you can think your own thoughts based on your own experiences.
65 tys777 : Just curious as to what you want Congress to do to these corporations to stop them from overseas operations? Tax the hell out of overseas earnings? T
66 Crosscheck007 : Its not an issue of working or not. If you re-read what I wrote, I said they SHOULDN'T strike. My point is they need to be united. They must act as o
67 goldenstate : This is the biggest load of trash I've read in a long time. Your suggestion that unions should be illegal would put the US in the company of nations
68 cpd : Outsourced labor can often be more expensive - with the added risk that they can up and go with little or no notice, costing you money and time to re
69 Buddys747 : I suggest you read the employee free choice act rather than listen to other peoples version of it.
70 MAH4546 : If my travelling habits could be easily accomodated by avoiding unionzed airlines, I would certainly avoid them. Unfortunately, I do not have that ch
71 SPREE34 : No, there's not. It's all about the money. Union or management, follow the money. The union folks at AA have better total compensation packages than
72 777STL : I'm not affiliated with a union currently, but I have been in the past. That being said, the certain well known package company I worked for while uni
73 BMI727 : That's not what I said. What I was saying is that unions are now largely unnecessary and are a relic from another era.
74 Post contains images deltaL1011man : Thats cute. You know those "stupid" guys at AA, they have the best SCOPE, Best pay, Best work rules etc.......because of the APA. If they didn't have
75 MaverickM11 : Work with employers to create jobs and grow the economy, rather than "protect" them and shrinking the economy... You brought up your union; I think i
76 BMI727 : I don't think that the lack of planes between 70 seats and 140 seats has helped anyone other than AA employees.
77 skyguyB727 : I would give you an argument on that. I left my agent position at a mAAjor carrier where I was making slightly over minimum wage after four years (Mc
78 LAXdude1023 : They are running the company into the ground. So it might be good for them but its bad for the company. Especially when AA is losing so much money. I
79 NWAESC : So what happens when/if you need the police? The fire department?
80 brilondon : Being in a union is freedom? What are you talking about. You work hard so your senior slack ass co-worker can get the token promotion set out in the
81 Post contains images Airport : I'm not going to pretend like I have any sort of informed opinion on unions or non-unions. I mean heck, I'm only 18, and not even employed in the airl
82 MaverickM11 : Yeah, at what price? Their airline is getting killed left and right, but of course that's not their fault. As soon as unions take a single economics
83 kevinasaurus : Unions are horrible.
84 mariner : In response to a poster calling me stupid. He apologized - end of the personal part. mariner
85 USAirways787 : Unions utterly ruin airlines. USAirways787
86 FWAERJ : One member of our family has to go to a conference in about a month, at about the same time an AA F/A strike could happen. He was planning on flying D
87 mariner : Southwest? mariner
88 FWAERJ : WN is proof that unions and management can get along. The key is good management that treats employees like family, and then good labor relations will
89 BlatantEcho : The fortunate thing is that union membership continues to decline here in the US. -- The main reason many people hate unions, is that they do all this
90 MaverickM11 : They never had to deal with deregulation as they were only intrastate until deregulation. Every legacy, however, has existed long before deregulation
91 mariner : Some would say they've had time to fix it. mariner
92 RussianJet : Apologies in advance for the harsh language, but it is justified - that comment is idiotic. Nothing short of pure foolishness. Some unions are better
93 BMI727 : Exactly. People seem to forget why companies exist. They exist to create a return for shareholders, not as a cash cow for their workers. Some unions
94 RussianJet : It's called earning a living. Having enough money to raise a family, that sort of thing.
95 DualQual : I think that about sums it up.
96 BMI727 : That is what the minimum wage is for.
97 LambertMan : Oh my goodness. What a disaster that acquisition was. Worked out horribly for all parties involved. I can't imagine a worse end game.
98 Slider : Well, TWA could have just gone belly up. Like I said earlier, they were stapled to the bottom. Had those FAs NOT been absorbed by AA, even as unseemi
99 NYCAAer : Best statement of this thread! Thank you! Everyone is so worked up over this... we haven't even done a strike vote yet.
100 MaverickM11 : Uh how? With the help from the unions? How do you suggest that all your labor stop making pre-deregulation wages today and start making post-deregula
101 Post contains images RussianJet : Ah yes, minimum wage. Of course, nobody earning minimum wage is hard up.   
102 Post contains images FWAERJ : And welcome to my RU list.   
103 mariner : Another one who likes to put words in my mouth. It always takes two to tango. mariner
104 Post contains images MaverickM11 :    They're like politicians. "Raise the minimum wage!" Sure, you're not the one that has to pay for it but you can take all the credit for it. Make
105 CoachClass : I am a former Union member before I retired. I worked for union and non-union employers. As a union member I got paid a lot more than non-union member
106 NYCAAer : Thanks. We aren't going to know anything about a strike until the union sends out a ballot and the votes are counted. And I do hear galley gossip. Pe
107 BMI727 : It isn't the government's job to make sure that people have everything they ever wanted. The government should ensure that: 1. Employers provide a sa
108 757luver : If the unions owned the airlines, and were risking their own capital, sure, wht It might be that way where you are from but unless you live in a right
109 RussianJet : Whatever. I happen to hate the huge gulf between rich and poor that such a system creates, and the insane greediness it rewards, but this is not the
110 SeaBosDca : For the most part, I agree with the rest of your post, although I'd add a couple of additional responsibilities for government. But this is baseless.
111 flyibaby : Regardless of personal feelings, sense of entitlement, etc. - if someone feels the need to better their life with regard to money, quality of life, et
112 NWAESC : At the expense of AA F/A's? Wow. What about their QOL?
113 flyibaby : Absolutely - by going on strike - they are effectively walking away from their jobs and stranding the very passengers that pay their salaries. I woul
114 LAXdude1023 : Pardon my ignorance, what is QOL?
115 flyibaby : Quality Of Life
116 ToTheStars : Awesomely stated flyibaby....I couldnt agree more!
117 USAirways787 : Until those unions become greedy. Time will tell. What about their QOL? They don't seem to be interested in it if they are willing to just throw it o
118 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : I totally understand what you wrote initially. And I will say it's not an issue of if they do or don't strike. If they don't stike, the point is moot
119 DeltaMD90 : Sigh... we had this union argument months ago. How about my take on it: Some unions are good. Some unions are bad. We don't live in a black and white
120 AAR90 : It continues to amaze me that so many people forget the REAL reason AA wanted TWA assets to begin with. If your user profile is correct (student), I
121 PRAirbus : TWA FA's union agreed to go to the bottom of the seniority list right before merging with AA; that is not new. They went to Court and lost too...ex-TW
122 PRAirbus : Will not see an AA FA strike next month...it will take way longer than that. More talks are scheduled to end in March, 2010; they have to be released
123 goldenstate : Not sure if you noticed but AA is already suffering large financial losses.
124 IAirAllie : True but if you have to pay 83% of the dues may as well join and get a vote too. At least then you have some say in who is representing you.
125 avek00 : A truism in the airline business is that companies get the unions they deserve. Where they exist, militant airline unions are usually the product of m
126 MAH4546 : A strike will place AA right into bankruptcy courts. In a way, that might be whats best for AA in the end - terminate labor contracts, release pensio
127 Post contains images WarRI1 : I could not agree more, I commend you for your accuracy. Certainly, and I quote you "A non-union enviroment creates low wages, and no chances of clim
128 Post contains images WarRI1 : I would like to wish the same for you as to your wages and pension. May you get what you wish for everyone else. It is more than deserved.  
129 MAH4546 : I don't work for wages, nor do I have a pension. I'm an at will employee on salary and can lose my job pretty much at the moment's notice, as the fre
130 NWAESC : I'd say they're VERY interested in improving it if negotiations progress that far. Know what I think is "getting old seriously?" The "you're just luc
131 WarRI1 : Bingo!!! No doubt about that, we are like a sick dog chewing it own tail off. Let the corporations rule, let us take what they deem as our just compe
132 WarRI1 : Your welcome! I did work for ages, I do have a comfortable pension and health benefits. I did not have to worry about the free market. I had a very g
133 Post contains images deltaL1011man : um, DUH!!!!! that is the point of SCOPE. That is the unions job! Unlike DALPA(and Lee Moak) way of thinking, RJs are not good for the PILOTS. Who doe
134 commavia : With respect, if you think the problems with the APFA's ludicros demands are because of "greed of the corporations" and the "politicians pandering" t
135 skyguyB727 : In a perfect world, that's how things would be. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. Big business lobbies ensure that items 1 and 2 on y
136 MAH4546 : I'm still gonna bet I am far better off than you regardless. I hate Arpey. I blame him too. I also blame the unions. Nobody is "wishing" bankruptcy.
137 mariner : Then, according to the free market, if the company cannot compete in a sustainably profitable manner, there is always the possibility that the busine
138 commavia : So then, how do the flight attendants suggest AMR alter its business model? Should they ditch international flying, multiple aircraft types, and prem
139 mariner : I don't think it is up to the flight attendants to suggest anything. The business is run by people who are paid to run it properly and - for whatever
140 BMI727 : Unions sometimes forget that no company = no jobs. There comes a point when the hamstring their employer so much that it begins to really hurt the co
141 Crosscheck007 : They probably won't get far, but that is beside the point. When the dust settles, what sort of untold damage will they have caused to the relationshi
142 WarRI1 : In the heat of the discussion, we stray off the narrow line of the thread topic, my statement was a indictment of most corporations and their way of
143 deltaL1011man : Scope has very little to do with AMRs problems. CO is in the same boat and they are in the same boat. Most of AMRs problems are a few people on a pow
144 iowaman : I'm with Mark on this one. Unions had their place 80 years ago, by making sure employees had reasonably safe working conditions and were treated fairl
145 AAR90 : I only got to vote when the union "leadership" saw fit to actually send me my ballots --which was only AFTER I quit APA (amazing how they couldn't se
146 RussianJet : Complete tosh. Have you any idea what a diverse range of men, women and professions across the world you are writing off in that one silly statement?
147 Crosscheck007 : I was only talking about what their intentions were, not whether or not it went as planned. In practice it was smart, but in reality it was a mess. C
148 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Of course not. It's never their fault. All they have to worry about is getting theirs and blaming management if they ever can't get their share. I'm
149 goldenstate : Labor has given up HUGE pay cuts and benefit reductions in the bankruptcies of this past decade. You don't think that's part of the solution?
150 mariner : I said "it takes two to tango". You are free to put whatever meaning you want on to that. When did I say that? You seem determined to pick some fight
151 WN700Driver : So has Mgmt. More, if your talking percentages. Where's their credit?
152 iowaman : Yes. Labor unions have long surpassed their need in most developed countries and situations. Not just the airline industry.
153 WN700Driver : Mostly agree. But just put a cat with the crows here, I would love to see the restaurant industry unionize. (Yeah, I really just said I would love to
154 Post contains images WarRI1 : I do not know what you are talking about, I have never accessed their website, if they have one. I do not know the organization, I have heard of them
155 WarRI1 : Agree, complete corporate talking head rubbish once again. We will all be happy with the benevalent corporation taking care of us. Sure!
156 Post contains images WarRI1 : I missed this reply. Are you talking mentally or financially. The term "far", in both instance is a big brag to me. Do not be so sure, especially in
157 MSYPI7185 : I'm sorry but this is BS. The company is there to make a profit for them and thier stockholders. To quote our former CEO, who I was in a meeting with
158 AAR90 : Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 124):True but if you have to pay 83% of the dues may as well join and get a vote too. At least then you have some say in who
159 commavia : No cash leaves the company's coffers. I must have a different understanding of stock options than you do. Stock options that are exercised (sold) by
160 WarRI1 : I did not notice any talking heads respond to my take on stock options and how they use them, I hope you have better luck. I guess it is hard to deny
161 WarRI1 : It is still compensation from the company, the obligation must still be out there for the stock. It does not magically disappear does it?. Who would
162 commavia : Sorry I missed it. I've already replied to MSYPI7185, so now I'll respond to your assertions. Nobody said the company doesn't "spend" a dime. What I
163 commavia : There is no obligation on the company's part. That's what makes it a stock option. The company issues the option at a given strike price, and if the
164 Post contains images Pellegrine : Best thread in the history of A.net!    I love the "unions are the bane of all existence" / "unions are salvation to the worker" sentiments! Minimum
165 MSYPI7185 : Your senario only holds true if you have buyers for the stock. If you have more stock being sold than buyers the company has to cover the difference.
166 commavia : If there is no buyer for stock, the stock is not sold. Likewise, if there is no buyer for a stock option, that option is not exercised. That has no b
167 Post contains images mariner :    I won't quote your whole post, but I thought you explained it all very well. mariner
168 MSYPI7185 : Part of our problem here is terminology. Stocks Options are the option to purchase at a predetermined price an at usually at a predetermined time the
169 MSYPI7185 : So much for the topic at hand...LOL
170 commavia : The third-party buyer! In fact, in almost every case - and, in AMR's case, every single case - the company is not the buyer of the option. Just think
171 MSYPI7185 : "According to US generally accepted accounting principles in effect before June 2005, stock options granted to employees did not need to be recognize
172 commavia : Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! Expenses on the income statement in no way whatsoever equate to cash outflows from the company. In fact, expensing stock optio
173 757luver : Couldn't have said it better myself. Just like the stuff I do, the factory that makes the product has people wanting to strike because they are only
174 MaverickM11 : You said AMR (mgmt) chose not to go into CH 11 which is a decision they have to live with; seems like that's what you want them to do? Such as when..
175 mariner : Whatever it "seems like" - that is not the intention of the statement. mariner
176 AAR90 : I find it most amusing in that the AA unions are vehemently protesting about performance based stock options the unions WANTED management to get INST
177 MSYPI7185 : If you say so.. What happens if AMR decided to repurchase shares of stock to cover the stock options available to the executives and or employees? Se
178 Post contains links commavia : I don't say so. U.S. accounting standards do. You can keep arguing the point, but it remains a fact whether you want to accept it or not: employee st
179 WarRI1 : In my book, it is creative bookkeeping, no matter how you describe it. If what you say is true, the company would be issuing bad paper. Try that with
180 Post contains images WarRI1 : Two way street, let us blame everybody who works for AA, Management for poor Managing, and for sucking up the big bucks. Who can blame them for sucki
181 Buddys747 : Very well written post.
182 commavia : You still don't get it. They're not issuing paper - bad or otherwise. They're issuing the right - option, not obligation - to buy stock (paper) in th
183 RussianJet : Total nonsense, but feel free to keep deluding yourself.
184 SA7700 : This thread will be locked due to a high level of low quality posts and off-topic comments. Any posts after this one will be deleted for housekeeping
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