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Qantas To Drastically Cut First Class  
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 622 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 24468 times:

Haven't found a post on this yet on A.net.

Qantas is planning to drastically cut its first class offering from two thirds of its fleet!

The only routes to be served First class will be Sydney to Los Angeles and Sydney to London Heathrow.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/trav...-past/story-e6frg8ro-1225825907261

184 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19727 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 24359 times:

It makes sense. I've never understood most F-classes on a lot of routes.

If your J product offers lie-flat seats, gourmet meals, and a good AVOD IFE system, then I can't imagine that there are many passengers who are willing to pay for a few extra amenities, especially when those extra amenities cost 3-5x as much. That means that QF is filling its F class with a lot of upgrades and discounted fares, which don't pay for all the floor space that the F seats use.

OK, perhaps on the really long legs, like the Kangaroo Route and North America routes there's a market, but on anything shorter, it just doesn't make sense to me (and apparently not to QF)


User currently offlinePeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 24224 times:

This is way more than just about a type of seat on an aircraft.
Very significant sign of the times for QF.
The next 10 years will become the most telling in QF's history.
The onslaught of the Middle East carriers has not yet had a full impact on BA and QF.

I've said it before and will again. The best solution for AUS/UK/SA to defend yourself against brutal competition from Asia and the Middle East is to practically merge QF/SA/BA into one super "Commonwealth" carrier. (I throw SA in here because of historical commonalities between the three and also because of similar challenges from EK).

You got 22 million Aussies, 50 million South Africans, and 62 million Brits (plus your foreign clientele). The route structure of SQ and EK alone has access to WAY more people than just between LHR-SYD and LHR-JNB/CPT. Once economies of scale kick in fully for EK and others, BA and QF are toast if they don't do anything now (unless governments enact protectionist measures more). Just think about it.

Jetstar is a great weapon. More needs to be done.

If you don't think QF is sitting on a bubble now you have your head in the sand.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineRIPCORDD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1168 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 24183 times:

sign of the times they are better of having J/Prem Y/ Y......I think a lot of carriers could make some good yields off prem y.....I love united's econ plus

User currently offlinefiscal From Australia, joined Oct 2009, 330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 24124 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
That means that QF is filling its F class with a lot of upgrades and discounted fares, which don't pay for all the floor space that the F seats use.

There is something positive to say about your comments though. By providing these upgrades, or providing more FF seats, QF can use this to build better relationships with their premium passengers. There is always going to be "status" attached to First Class, even if the hard and soft products are not all that different. People like to be treated "Special".

It is worth noting, that many do not consider the 744 (a/c most affected) sloping business class seats to be a good sleeping bed, they may be comfortable to sit in, but sleep is a different matter.

I am also not sure that QF would generate any more substantial revenue from removing the first class seats up front and placing skybeds in them. You might be lucky to add 1 or 2 seats in the given space.

On a recent flight from LHR to MEL, we were downgraded to J, but were still able to use the F seats. We were happy with that, as we considered that having the genuine flat bed was what we most wanted. As it turned out, the wife's father took ill, and we ended up on CX flight's with their herring bone seats, which for the most part were very comfortable.

So, unless they are going to change the slopies into flat beds, then I say leave it as it is.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8568 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 24085 times:
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Quoting fiscal (Reply 4):
It is worth noting, that many do not consider the 744 (a/c most affected) sloping business class seats to be a good sleeping bed,

Yes , but I believe that part of the revamp would be to refit those 744s which are staying with flat J class beds the same as the ones they have fitted to their A380.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5665 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 24031 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):

The only routes to be served First class will be Sydney to Los Angeles and Sydney to London Heathrow.

Remembering that this is only a "report" in a News Ltd newspaper, I find the idea of removing first class totally from MEL to be ludicrous. Considering that MEL is only slightly smaller than SYD and houses the main offices of the majority of mining, manufacturing and industrial companies in Australia, it would seem that if SYD can support first class to LHR then MEL can too. LAX I don't know, but I would have thought so.

Bottom line, lets wait for the official announcement.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1577 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23796 times:

Quoting fiscal (Reply 4):
There is something positive to say about your comments though. By providing these upgrades, or providing more FF seats, QF can use this to build better relationships with their premium passengers. There is always going to be "status" attached to First Class, even if the hard and soft products are not all that different. People like to be treated "Special".

It is worth noting, that many do not consider the 744 (a/c most affected) sloping business class seats to be a good sleeping bed, they may be comfortable to sit in, but sleep is a different matter.

I am also not sure that QF would generate any more substantial revenue from removing the first class seats up front and placing skybeds in them. You might be lucky to add 1 or 2 seats in the given space.

On a recent flight from LHR to MEL, we were downgraded to J, but were still able to use the F seats. We were happy with that, as we considered that having the genuine flat bed was what we most wanted. As it turned out, the wife's father took ill, and we ended up on CX flight's with their herring bone seats, which for the most part were very comfortable.

So, unless they are going to change the slopies into flat beds, then I say leave it as it is.

I agree. I always feel like F can be profitable just for upgrades or what we might call servicing your best customers. As you say, even if you aren't directly getting revenue for "retail" purchases of F seats, elites may flock to the competition if they don't get such perks. And I would argue that the cost of service is probably not THAT much higher for F vs. a good J product. Obviously it costs a bit more, but I can't see it being all that much more.


User currently offlinechrisrad From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1069 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 23529 times:

Quoting RIPCORDD (Reply 3):
sign of the times they are better of having J/Prem Y/ Y......I think a lot of carriers could make some good yields off prem y.....I love united's econ plus

Sorry I really don't know what is so premium about it, on the 744 its 34", as much as other carriers regular Y class. I certainly would not be paying extra to fly that.



Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 23386 times:

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 2):
This is way more than just about a type of seat on an aircraft.
Very significant sign of the times for QF.

I think that's so - they obviously expect a pretty drastic (and permanent) change in market conditions.

As it happens I'm just planning a trip to the USA in a few months. I've never been a fan of Branson, but he has started a new full-service airline here (V Australia) which uses 777s fitted out only with Economy (9-across), Premium Economy (8-across) and Business (7-across, basically 'old-fashioned first', seats which recline flat but not the enormous 'seatbed suites' they tend to offer nowadays).

http://www.vaustralia.com.au/apps/va...alia/777-3d-walkthrough/index.html

Must admit that it looks like 'the wave of the future' to me. I've always been pretty loyal to Qantas, but 'there comes a time'.........

As far as Qantas is concerned, a lot will depend on how many extra passengers they can carry with the new layouts. V Australia can seat 388 in their 777s - Qantas can seat 450 on the A380 with their present (four-class) layout. An extra 62 passengers doesn't seem a helluva lot at the price of two extra engines - unless, of course, your economics depend on both First Class and Business Class being full! Their 747s only carry 379 at present.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 6):
it would seem that if SYD can support first class to LHR then MEL can too.

Couldn't agree more, on the face of it! But Qantas often mystifies me!

[Edited 2010-02-05 21:03:41]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 23337 times:

What about MEL-HKG-LHR as well as SFO-SYD+LAX-MEL?

User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 573 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 22903 times:

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 2):
I've said it before and will again. The best solution for AUS/UK/SA to defend yourself against brutal competition from Asia and the Middle East is to practically merge QF/SA/BA into one super "Commonwealth" carrier. (I throw SA in here because of historical commonalities between the three and also because of similar challenges from EK).

Emblematic of economic times in general. There are those who say that all Anglo countries including UK, US, Ireland, SA, Aus, NZ, Canada, should eventually band together and form a common free trade bloc, or that someday the US and EU will have no choice but to put aside their differences and cooperate much more closely than they do today. The changes and pressures taking place in the international airline industry may be a preview of wider economic trends.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 2):
BA and QF are toast if they don't do anything now (unless governments enact protectionist measures more).

The latter position would not necessarily be wrong, since BA/QF do not have the opportunity to compete on a level playing field with EK and QR.


User currently offlineCrosscheck007 From Poland, joined Jan 2010, 278 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 22835 times:

This is sad to see, but if it is what they need to do in order to survive, than good for them. I am sure they have weighed all considerations, including revenue from upgrades.

Australia needs QF to survive, they cannot afford Qantas Group to become another Ansett.  

Cheers,

007



Je l'attends pas un homme. J'apporte le parti, j'apporte le feu d'artifice.
User currently offlineVHTJE From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21562 times:
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Quoting Peanuts (Reply 2):
Very significant sign of the times for QF.
The next 10 years will become the most telling in QF's history.
The onslaught of the Middle East carriers has not yet had a full impact on BA and QF.

I can add something anecdotally to this statement.

I live in the UK and travel to SYD at least once a year. I move predominently in middle-aged, upper-middle class circles - the type of people who regularly fly J/F, who would never fly Y.

Once they comprehend I am Australian, inevitably it leads to the 'Oh I love Australia/New Zealand' conversation, and from there, the story of their flight to/from Australia/New Zealand.

Increasingly - remember these are conservative, upper-middle class people, not price-sensitive traveller types - are telling me how they have switched to a Middle Eastern carrier to go Asia, Australia, New Zealand, and how utterly brilliant it was. Far better than the BA/QF offering (apparently), and usually at a good price (apparently - you know how people embellish when story telling).

My point is if rich conservative people are swapping to Middle Eastern carriers for their long haul flying, this cannot be good for QF and BA.

Why aren't QF/BA doing anything to stem this tide of premium passenger? Surely by reducing F it can only make it worse? Example - a doctor here in my village has connections to Melbourne goes there about once every two years, always in First Class. He can't do that now on BA/QF.

If he goes with EK he gets a better experience at the airport, only one stopover, and gets better lounges at the stopover point, not to mention better service on board, and travels on newer, more opulent equipment.

How do I know this? He ditched BA/QF years ago and switched to EK....


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4636 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21135 times:

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 8):
Sorry I really don't know what is so premium about it, on the 744 its 34", as much as other carriers regular Y class. I certainly would not be paying extra to fly that.

Wrong, it's 38" on the 744, and 38" on the A380 middle block of 3 sets of seats and 40" on the A380 in the side seats. I know as I've flown both.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19727 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20968 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 7):
As you say, even if you aren't directly getting revenue for "retail" purchases of F seats, elites may flock to the competition if they don't get such perks.

What competition? Most business flyers based in Oz can choose for multiple international destinations QF...or QF. Any other carrier is guaranteed connections.


User currently offlinechrisrad From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1069 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20882 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 14):
Quoting chrisrad (Reply 8):
Sorry I really don't know what is so premium about it, on the 744 its 34", as much as other carriers regular Y class. I certainly would not be paying extra to fly that.

Wrong, it's 38" on the 744, and 38" on the A380 middle block of 3 sets of seats and 40" on the A380 in the side seats. I know as I've flown both.

I never knew UA flew the A380?...... perhaps re-read what I was referring to

Post was in relation to United's Economy Plus



Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4636 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20842 times:

Quoting chrisrad (Reply 16):
I never knew UA flew the A380?...... perhaps re-read what I was referring to

Post was in relation to United's Economy Plus

My apologies, I was only just out of bed and obviously still a bit brain fuzzy  



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20728 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
The only routes to be served First class will be Sydney to Los Angeles and Sydney to London Heathrow.

Does that include HKG-LHR?


User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20611 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
If your J product offers lie-flat seats, gourmet meals, and a good AVOD IFE system, then I can't imagine that there are many passengers who are willing to pay for a few extra amenities, especially when those extra amenities cost 3-5x as much.

To me, the issue is really about QF's product differentiation strategies. There are competing airlines where first class is truly exceptional, while J class is clearly not in the same league. Needless to say, the demand is there to stay.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):

I think that's so - they obviously expect a pretty drastic (and permanent) change in market conditions.

I always find it hard to comprehend why anyone would make drastic and permanent conclusions that the "changing times" and "current market conditions" are going to stay for good. Is there any point in history or economic theory to support the prophecy that the global economy will never recover and grow beyond pre-2008 levels?

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 11):
There are those who say that all Anglo countries including UK, US, Ireland, SA, Aus, NZ, Canada, should eventually band together and form a common free trade bloc

India, the Philippines and Singapore appear far more anglophone than SA or Ireland. Why are they excluded?

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 11):
BA/QF do not have the opportunity to compete on a level playing field with EK and QR.

A misleading statement. If BA/QF choose to remain uncompetitive, then they only have themselves to blame. No one is stopping QF from launching a full-assault on the Kangaroo route via its SIN hub to match SQ's services. Instead, they chose to withdraw from those ex-SIN routes one by one. BA has even less excuses. They have full 9th freedom rights to fly into and out of SIN, including even establishing a hub or a subsidiary in SIN to compete with it.

Blaming the environment and the competition is just too easy an excuse to explain one's own non-competitiveness.



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20592 times:

I think F has been cannibalised in a lot of carriers by their vastly improved J service.

Quoting Peanuts (Reply 2):
BA and QF are toast if they don't do anything now

Not really too big a problem for BA as their biggest longhaul market is the US by quite a way.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3005 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20492 times:

Quoting RIPCORDD (Reply 3):
I think a lot of carriers could make some good yields off prem y.....I love united's econ plus

Good for you ... but UA's Y+ bears no resemblance to Y+ on QF, BA, NZ, VA, etc.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20422 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 19):
I always find it hard to comprehend why anyone would make drastic and permanent conclusions that the "changing times" and "current market conditions" are going to stay for good.

It may seem 'drastic' but there's no reason why it has to be 'permanent.'

But I think that we have to assume that Qantas (and other airlines) know only too well what is happening in the market, from the tickets they're selling (or rather, it seems, NOT selling). And, from their market research and customer feedback, they'll know why the more expensive tickets aren't selling. My guess is that organisations like the banks have been told by their PR people to avoid ostentatious spending - and travel costs are one of the easiest things to rein in. So my guess is that most senior businessmen (and ALL the more junior ones) have downgraded from First to Business.

As to any recovery, that has to be months if not years off yet. And major changes in seating layouts can't be achieved overnight. No use just going on flying half-empty aeroplanes around and just 'hoping for the best.'

PS - about Singapore, I think you'll find that as soon as that Branson guy and Qantas get hold of the 789s they have on order (about 2013, assuming that the 787 tests out OK and meets specification) an increasing proportion of Australia/Heathrow services will go through Perth in Western Australia, and from there direct to London. The long-suffering Aussie taxpayer is currently spending over $100M. combining Perth's domestic and international terminals, which are separate at present, in anticipation of this.

[Edited 2010-02-06 04:19:03]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20341 times:
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SA ditched F years ago and it doesn't seem to have affected their yields, every time I fly long haul the plane is full, both Y and J.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 19):
Philippines and Singapore appear far more anglophone than SA or Ireland

Interesting statement, would you care to expand on it?



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 20143 times:

Quoting VHTJE (Reply 13):
Why aren't QF/BA doing anything to stem this tide of premium passenger? Surely by reducing F it can only make it worse? Example - a doctor here in my village has connections to Melbourne goes there about once every two years, always in First Class. He can't do that now on BA/QF.

If he goes with EK he gets a better experience at the airport, only one stopover, and gets better lounges at the stopover point, not to mention better service on board, and travels on newer, more opulent equipment.

How do I know this? He ditched BA/QF years ago and switched to EK....

But you forget that the BA/QF cannot operate a First Class at the prices EK quotes. As you probably know the Middle Eastern airlines are very price aggressive in the premium markets (selling F for low C class prices). The fact that they may loose some premium pax is a loss, but a calculated loss.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
My guess is that organisations like the banks have been told by their PR people to avoid ostentatious spending - and travel costs are one of the easiest things to rein in. So my guess is that most senior businessmen (and ALL the more junior ones) have downgraded from First to Business.

100% correct. Furthermore even CEO´s now have to travel C class (or sometimes even Y class). If you look at the latest IATA press releases they mention clearly that premium traffic is still not recovering whilst Y class travel is. This is the result of the cost cutting measures most companies have taken (and indeed especially the financial world, which occupied many F-class seats during the boom years).

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 7):
I agree. I always feel like F can be profitable just for upgrades or what we might call servicing your best customers

From a marketing point of view such a strategy would be a disaster. Don´t forget that when these premium pax become accustomed to these upgrades they either do not buy a F-class ticket anymore (as the know they will be upgraded) or will be very disappointed if they don´t get upgraded due whatever reason. What´s the point of having a F-class cabin when none of the pax in the F-class cabin actually paid for F-class? There is a reason why many airlines abolished F-class (and don´t seem to be doing fine). If you want to give your super frequent flyers some extra attention there are other ways of doing that.


25 JasonCRH : You simiply have no knowledge of the economics of a first class cabin. the bulk of the extra expense isnt in the catering, it's in the floor space you
26 huaiwei : Because competition in J class is much higher than in F, I presume. Just a handful of airlines have F now. While I fully agree with your comment, I m
27 Post contains links kaitak : Quite correct, I think; the question is not how to emulate them (looking at F Class on QF's A380, it doesn't look as inviting as EK's (or SQ's produc
28 huaiwei : As far as most customers are concerned, only the following matters (in order of importance): - Price. - Flight time/frequencies. - Layover time at tr
29 airbazar : The biggest flaw with this statement is that the competition is also building these "better" relationships with their customers while charging for F
30 jfk777 : V Australia does NOT seat 388, It seat 288Y, 40 Y+ and 35 J. That's 363.
31 NAV20 : Cheers, huaiwei, glad we more or less agree. But even economists would be wise to agree with the legendary Joihn Maynard Keynes, who once memorably s
32 Andz : Without sounding elitist, English is the language of business and tourism and therefore the language of air travel. Most of what you say is correct,
33 Post contains images huaiwei : People seem to listen to Keynes only when there is an economic meltdown. When the money rolls in, he seems to be forgotten.  Long trips seem to be f
34 AirNZ : Why not, and what is stopping them? I don't seem to remember cries of alleged 'brutal competition' when the world's 'legacy carries' (which included
35 DocLightning : And what about AC, DL, CO, VS, KL, etc.? They all did away with F.
36 SeaBosDca : The 789 will not have the range to fly PER-LHR nonstop westbound. You still need a 77L or A345 for that. Future heavier iterations of the A380 might
37 Stitch : One more reason for me to stick with Star Alliance, I guess, since my primary international carriers (UA, LH, SQ, and NH) all still offer First Class.
38 RJ111 : I'm sorry but this is an absolute pipe dream. First of all, i hate to break it to you, but no-one wants to go to PER, at least no one who pays well i
39 ncfc99 : How are they not competing on level playing field? In the premium classes, there will be demand for this length of flight. I wonder if the economy cl
40 LHCVG : IIRC at least DL used that as their explicit rationale for getting rid of F, that J is a "bridge" between the two. I don't claim to. I just figure th
41 Viscount724 : EK's 7-abreast J class product on their A330-200s isn't competitive. I can't think of any other A330 operators with a 7-abreast configuration in busi
42 kaitak : They can adjust the config to meet the needs of the market; maybe ordinary Y class might not be as much in demand, but there could be a good market f
43 mdavies06 : BA/QF have several competitive disadvantages versus SQ/EK/QR 1) Labor cost differences 2) Hub location differences and its implication of equipment ut
44 BAStew : The problem is, its not an attractive option for airlines like BA to allocate more (already scarce) resources to the Kangaroo route. The route is hig
45 Post contains images Pellegrine : A significant figure in all this is QF's position and the position of their Australian base. Also, QF F is ugly. On the 380 and less so the 744. Agree
46 Post contains images Stitch : Exactly. Another economic bubble will form soon enough (hell, the banks are already back to the same "speculative shenanigans" that helped land us in
47 Viscount724 : But if their J product is good enough, they can attract passengers who may have otherwise flown F class on other carriers. And the number of passenge
48 goldenstate : I would add the fact that BA and QF are privatized entities that do not have the luxury of operating in a tax free environment.
49 kiwiandrew : A very valid point , I think that in the next few years we will see an expectation for true flat beds in J rather than sloping 'flat' beds . Many air
50 ncfc99 : I know they can adjust the seating to better match demand, if they are using a small plane like a 787, i guess they have a good shot at filling it. A
51 OzGlobal : Not sure what you're saying here. When I was traveling to EU twice a year for work from Oz in J, we had a travel policy which meant we had to go QF u
52 Post contains links NAV20 : In this context the issue is that, at the moment, everyone 'has to go' to Singapore, Hong Kong, or Dubai; making for two debilitating, quite long sti
53 Pellegrine : I do not disagree. But it is a very considered calculation after all. If F is not performing up to standard, sure eliminate it. But if this is a temp
54 fiscal : If QF were to replace all of the old Skybeds with the new generation, then I would think they could seriously think of removing F on ALL QF flights,
55 jetfuel : Problem is that very few F seats are sold at this price. You would be shocked how many are for example not sold/free upgrades/FF seats/Non-rev/Staff/
56 Babybus : First Class has become for those paying on expenses only. There are few companies that want staff travelling at that sort of cost. Why bother buying a
57 RJ111 : There is no modified 789 though. It's already had a MTOW upgrade. You'd need at least a 800nm range increase and that's not something you can just pu
58 Post contains images NAV20 : That's probably the nub of it, RJ11. QF considered the 772LR years back; but they only thought in terms of flights direct to Sydney (plus Melbourne a
59 Stitch : It is why I think moving to a single row of First Class, as some carriers have done on some of their aircraft families, makes sense. That way you hav
60 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : That's probably part of the truth NAV20.. That being said however, Dixon is on record stating he regrets not ordering the B777's. I think had they pr
61 mogandoCI : the true solution to fight against EK / EY would be to embrace ULR to enable nonstop service on the kangaroo route. if you factor in great circle dist
62 SeaBosDca : There is no aircraft, currently or planned in the foreseeable future, that can do it. There is unlikely to be such an aircraft because almost no cust
63 evomutant : That's the dream. QF/BA can't compete with the Middle East carriers on cost, QF can probably match the service (but for more $$$) but can't beat it.
64 Peanuts : That's only a small part of the problem for QF/BA. It's not just the traffic between LHR-SYD they are battling. For people from MAN there would still
65 RJ111 : But it was considered with the A340-500 at first. It was not seleted because it's a craaaazy idea. I presume the notion wasn't completely forgotten w
66 Stitch : The problem with a ULR service on the Kangaroo Route is the only people who are willing to pay the premium are those booked in a premium cabin. I walk
67 Post contains images Jacobin777 : What QF needs to do is possibly get QF and/or JQ to hub or at the very least start a base @DXB (or somewhere near where 5th freedom rights are allowe
68 jetfuel : Isn't that what SIN is in reality. Nothing to stop QF doing SIN-MAN. Problem is QF is all LHR LAX LHR LAX LHR LAX
69 Post contains links Viscount724 : I doubt any F class routes consistently operate at an 80% revenue load factor. Even half that number is probably a stretch on most routes. No, even a
70 airnewzealand : Guys, guys, guys, Qantas WILLNOT be eliminating first class all together as many are trying to say. From Cabin Crew management (however, take it with
71 Gemuser : This makes soooooooooo much more sences than the News Ltd report. Thanks airnewzealand. Gemuser
72 Pellegrine : True, but then again the same is true for J class. How many J class tickets are sold @ $9,500 roundtrip which is frequently quoted transpac or kangar
73 kiwiandrew : At that point you have to question the economics of retaining F at all - you still retain all the costs of maintaining F lounges , F checkin , F crew
74 threepoint : Can the 77L do LHR-PER year-round with a reasonable payload? I can't see any version of the Kangaroo Route making a go of it with only premium seats
75 ANstar : Hardly - CX don't even offer an F product or SYD or MEL.
76 Post contains links jetfuel : Back in March 2009 I made a prediction about shrinking first class "I am going to make a prediction. First class as we know it will become a thing of
77 Pellegrine : Sure, but the less passengers you have to cater to, the less all those ancillary costs. Smaller lounge, etc. Ugly isn't it! I said that about QF's A3
78 Post contains images NAV20 : Would there actually be any compelling reason to raise the seating specification wholesale? As I've said, MEL-LAX is often 14 hours, and people put u
79 VC10er : Does Qantas have angled lie-flats in business class? Or are there total lie-flats in F and C like BA?
80 kiwiandrew : Lie flat J on the A380 , sloped beds on the 744 . ( I think that the A330s have sloped beds as well )
81 VC10er : OMG! I was in Sydney the end of Nov and flew UA. The folks in my office there were telling me how much better Qantas was in business than UA- what a f
82 fiscal : If it is currently 4-5 hours PER-SIN and 13-14 hours SIN-LHR and it is only 150nm difference for the direct flight (I think I saw that mentioned) the
83 Post contains images Jacobin777 : True - I really didn't think about SIN..   I do agree, QF needs to stop being "LHR-centric" when it comes to their European flying.
84 Kent350787 : It does do Frankfurt as well.... Isn't it a rights issue that keeps it out of Paris? And it's already talking about Rome and Athens with Jetstar. But
85 Post contains images NAV20 : Just did a 'highly-scientific analysis' of the Great Circle routes (using one of my kids' old globes and a piece of thread ). As far as I can see the
86 Post contains images Baroque : I think that is another of your beliefs that you are just going to have to revise.   They fly up the Indo-Gangetic plain, go over the Hindu Kush nea
87 Post contains images NAV20 : Oh dear, Baroque - as I said, if you base the longhaul aircraft in Perth, there'll be no need to fly the first legs - which could be from anywhere in
88 Baroque : Oh dear indeed. If you happen to be in Perth, what method are you going to use to transmogrify your good self to be in Perth? Assuming that Scotty is
89 Post contains images NAV20 : About the first point, Baroque, see my edit above. I accept your point about the route - but I take it you don't disagree with my estimated times/dist
90 Gasman : Sorry to add my 2c when this discussion's well underway, but I too for many years have felt Qantas has lost it's way. - the livery is long overdue for
91 avek00 : The re-establishment of the global dominance of USA legacy air carriers is under way. While legacies in Australia and elsewhere continue to gut the av
92 Baroque : Touche, perhaps by then I was feeling for you to "need" to be in Perth. I think you might find that airlines will tend to do things first that will m
93 Jackbr : It has been updated
94 Post contains images TN486 : From a non-industry person, this all sounds commonsense to me. And for those espousing routings other than SIN to LHR, have you forgotten the fact th
95 Post contains links BAStew : On the 5th of FEB QF and BA announced a five year extention to their Joint Services Agreement on the 'kangaroo route'. The article below should allay
96 Post contains links NAV20 : Gasman, see what you mean - but I prefer to think (and say) that it's a wonder that Qantas (given its home location, literally thousands of miles fro
97 ClassicLover : That's already been done. The A380 Skybed is fully flat and improved over the first generation of Skybed. It's a great product - and probably a reaso
98 Gasman : No it 'aint. It might've been, even as recently as 5 years ago, but there really is nothing special now about a foward facing skybed in a 2+2+2 confi
99 AusA380 : I have been on the QF747 Skybed and the A380 Skybed and they are quite different. The A380 version is lieflat and to my mind seemed to have more forwa
100 Gasman : I agree that the 747 Skybed Mk1 were not as comfortable and I did not like the lie angle experience compared to other J projects that were developed a
101 TN486 : Thank you for sharing that link, it is enthralling reading, again thank you.
102 VC10er : Would most of you here choose J on UA than an angled skybed? It seems like so long as it isn't an American carrier one would almost always choose the
103 Baroque : Used to be 6'1.5" but shrinking I fear, though this is offset by an increased tendency to get cramp!! It is a pity the better informed have not told
104 zkpilot : The reconfiguration will standardise most of the fleet of 744s to one config with mk2 skybeds. The only exceptions will be the 2 (+W) class 744s whic
105 N14AZ : Sorry, if I missed this information in the previous posts but i scanned it and didn't find anything: LH Technik has won the contract to conduct the f
106 Post contains links NAV20 : Sorry to hear about the 'flu, Baroque mate. No-one wants a 100-degree temperature when the summer air temperature is also at 100 degrees! Hope you fee
107 Gemuser : Not according to airnewzealand in reply 70: qoute 12x A380 will have first class...they will service MEL-SIN-LHR SYD-SIN-LHR MEL-LAX SYD-LAX /quote F
108 RJ111 : Not at all, the SYD-SIN is probably near the optimal stage length for a lot of aircraft. LHR-SIN is further away. Alternatively SIN-PER will be fuel
109 NAV20 : RJ111, who said anything about SIN-PER? Neither PER-LHR nor MEL-SIN-LHR has a stopover at the mid point? Boeing's figures for the 772LR, on that site
110 bongodog1964 : [quote=Babybus,reply=56]First Class has become for those paying on expenses only. There are few companies that want staff travelling at that sort of c
111 Stitch : That figure appears to be with a full passenger load, so it likely only includes passenger bags in the bays. Using the Payload-Range charts, a 777-20
112 NAV20 : At the top of the relevant column the site says "Cargo - pallets/containers - 6/14", Stitch? Surely that refers to freight, not just baggage? At the
113 Baroque : You sure of that? Another case of Brize Norton to Bagramitis? ??????
114 Post contains images Stitch : I believe that is just meant to note one of the possible cargo configurations a 777-200LR can handle. It is listed as one of four "typical" configura
115 United Airline : What about EZE as well as MEL-HKG-LHR? Will they resume YVR?
116 RJ111 : No one, but it had to be assumed bcause LHR-PER is not a big enough market to support the flight. Never said they did, SIN is far nearer the midpoint
117 Baroque : On similar length stages (shorter by a bit than Perth-LHR) a source suggests the CASM would be 126.7 for the A388 at 100. The ?? was because I though
118 RJ111 : No you're right, it was a typo. My bad.
119 Post contains images NAV20 : Great, RJ111 - I think I finally see why we seem to be at loggerheads. Thing is, my idea wouldn't depend just on the business that Perth couild gener
120 zkpilot : Ok firstly I missed airnewzealand's post... he has put it very clearly as always! secondly I said: So I got the SYD-LAX, SYD-LHR and MEL-LHR just mis
121 RJ111 : Or as i said ealier in the thread. They could just fly directly to SIN in the first place via QF and/or JQ. In some cases such as DRW and CNS, saving
122 Post contains images NAV20 : Sounds promising, zkpilot  - but I suspect that there's a bit of 'Branson-speak' in there, he hasn't even ordered any 772s yet.
123 Baroque : Possibly because they are going to cost over 25% more per seat mile than an A380 flying from SIN do you think? Probably more than a delta of 30% for
124 Post contains images SeaBosDca : Mm hmm.    With no 77Ls in the pipeline and no aircraft that can fly the route...
125 mdavies06 : Exactly. LHR-PER of course is not a large enough market on its own (at least not in F for a single carrier anyway). It will, if become feasible one d
126 GarethW : With what exactly, SRB's balloon? Out of curiosity, I checked the range/payload charts for a 77W on the route, and it would be limited to, at best, 1
127 Post contains links kaitak : I was thinking about that some time ago; it's interesting, just for fun, to see what kind of schedule this would have. If you pick a time when most d
128 Post contains images ClassicLover : I am not going to argue with you on this, because it's clear which you prefer and arguing over preference is kind of pointless   For what it's worth
129 jetfuel : You guys need to get back on topic
130 jfk777 : Qantas will only have First Class on the Whate Jets, that fine since London and Los Angeles are the two biggest destinations for Qantas. 744's with J/
131 zkpilot : Yes it is definitely a route for the 77L, so that might possibly be on the cards... it wouldn't be much of a drama as the 77W and 77L are almost iden
132 Baroque : Hmmm, the 77L probably costs more to run that a 744 on shorter routes, so it is not going to be any cheaper as it reaches its max range is it? And th
133 Post contains images NAV20 : Don't see that, Baroque? The A380 hasn't had any new orders for years, the 748i only has about 30 passenger orders all up, of which only 5 are recent
134 zkpilot : Actually on flights more than 6 hours long the 77L has better costs than the 77E. The 77E is actually more cost effective than the 744 on most routes
135 Baroque : I presume you mean the 773ER. Eventually the 77L has better costs, but not I would have thought at 6 hours. And the 773ER has better costs than the 7
136 Post contains links Gemuser : WRONG The A380 has averaged 13.2 airframes ordered per year, over the last 5 years! Breakdown of A380 orders 2005 - 2009 09:4 08:13 07:33 06:24 05:29
137 Post contains links Gemuser : OK, it's now offical: quote B747-400 * nine B747-400 will be upgraded and fitted with Qantas' A380 standard seats and inflight product, including a fu
138 jfk777 : SAD to see the end of the 747 is in sight at Qantas, an airplane QF has had in the fleet in various different versions since 1971. The next gap in si
139 Post contains links QFYMML : I'm not sure if it's been picked up here somewhere already but I read that F is being reintroduced as follows: eff 07JUN10 Sydney – Buenos Aires eff
140 Coronado : The level of indebtedness of US carriers still concerns me. If interest rates hike up to 12% (I remember when they were 18% in the early 80s), a lot
141 smi0006 : [ I suppose this makes sense whilst the aircraft are configured with them they might aswell sell the first class seats they have if demand is starting
142 ikramerica : What's satisfying to me is that for many, many years I've been saying this, as well as that QF is shooting itself in the foot by not buying 777s. I w
143 AusA380 : What is the situation re F out of Mel? Whilst I no longer live there I would have thought that Mel could support F to LAX and LHR at least. Also what
144 Airvan00 : What a breathtaking rant. At least they announced a profit today unlike many of their competitors.
145 6thfreedom : MEL-SIN-LHR MEL-LAX these are the only F class sectors. MEL-HKG-LHR and SYD-BKK-LHR become 3 class (no F)
146 Post contains links NAV20 : Qantas just announced their half-year results (from 1st. July 2009). Profits 72% down, no dividend to be paid, and big problems with increasing intern
147 Gemuser : Thank God QF never brought B777. Having just had my first exprience on them, they (2) were horriable! Spoken by someone who doesn't live here! I real
148 NAV20 : As a matter of interest, Gemuser - what didn't you like about them?
149 Gemuser : The comment was somewhat tongue in cheek in reply to ikramerica's comment. Having said that I didn't like the ones I have flown on, which consists of
150 BmiBaby737 : So will LHR still be served with Boeing 747s, will the specific 747s they use for the service be changed?
151 Post contains images Baroque : Well that is telling us colonials how to run a profitable airline from the country that knows it best. Thanks a bundle. And so is that. But you could
152 Pellegrine : I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but... The profits of QF have about as much to do with Australian protectionism as they do the business acumen of t
153 Post contains images NAV20 : Cheers, mate - thought it was probably something along those lines.
154 AusA380 : Is this a case of the very large pot calling the kettle black! I see the US domestic market as one of the most potected. Anyone can come and set up a
155 Post contains images TN486 : Well done sir, thanks for the heads up. Hear hear (as in applause) And when talking profits etc, we should be considering the QF Group, not QF in iso
156 Gemuser : In your opinion. Other people have other opinions, including QF fleet planning. If both Boeing and Airbus were not YEARS late on their contracted del
157 ruscoe : I do think that Qantas made a serious fleet planning mistake in not acquiring 777. They thought the contrest was between 380,330 and 777, 764. Really
158 OzGlobal : Uhmm? ...No. I've done Oz - Eu 34 times in since 2000. The Asian stopovers are perfect for QF. SIN acts as a well situated hub, both in terms of flig
159 Post contains images Pellegrine : I haven't a pot on the stove in this matter. Definitely. I always have one. And this is the Airliners discussion forum. Same people who thought they'
160 Baroque : Now there is something we can agree on. Although 2005 is a bit late I think!
161 ANstar : Actually their main playground (aus domestic) is actually not protected at all - as can be seen by TT and DJ when they started and were 100% foreign
162 Viscount724 : But via PER is further and adds about 1 hour of flying time and related costs compared to routings via major Asian hubs closer to the great circle ro
163 OzGlobal : The most breathtaking aspect is that the American experts here are decrying the ineptitude of QF management either because they were too recalcitrant
164 ikramerica : Right. Because they made a small profit (as are most other carriers around the world, BTW), the poor decisions and future uncertainty for QF are to b
165 AirNZ : But then again, these "poor decisions" are very largely defined, and adjudicated to be such, by a.net 'experts' who funny enough have little to no ac
166 RJ111 : Precisely what evidence is there to suggest a 777 fleet would make any difference? QF's has a very diminished need for the 777 compared to a lot of o
167 luckyone : With respect to foreign ownership absolutely. However, the road is littered with short-lived domestic carriers started internally, SkyBus and Indepen
168 cpd : 550 seats. Though I personally think it should have been configured for 700 seats or more.[Edited 2010-02-18 15:12:00]
169 Stitch : Honestly, looking at QF's new seat maps, we appear to be talking about a net reduction of six Business Class seats and a net gain of four Premium Econ
170 Gemuser : Sources please, I can't seem to find them! Gemuser
171 Stitch : "Seat Maps" was a bit of a misnomer on my part. I am just going from the figures quoted further up thread from QF (or a QF source) and comparing them
172 Post contains links Airvan00 : I don’t think there are any. The 550 for the A380 comes from a journalists guess http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...re-on-its-a380s-20100218-oi
173 Jacobin777 : QF's prior CEO Dixon stated it was a mistake not to purchase any variants of the B777 when they had the opportunity.
174 travelhound : I always thought QF should have brought more 744ER’s instead of re-furbishing the old 743's. My reasoning was that in the 2005-2009 period QF would
175 OzGlobal : So please explain how this is different from Ausatralia, who also has a list of failed domestic start ups AND even failed legacy carrier, Ansett?? An
176 Baroque : Or so it seems. That is certainly one way of looking at it, getting into SYD or MEL from LHR or LAX is a bit of an art in terms of timing. It will be
177 Post contains links NAV20 : I've often wondered why QF finally 'broke their fast' with such a massive order for yet another brand-new aeroplane which was already subject to dela
178 seabosdca : Corporate bankruptcy is intended to preserve jobs and a measure of economic stability. It was not developed for any purpose relating to international
179 Baroque : Since Concorde went out of economic fashion, milkcarts are mostly what is needed, racehorses need not apply - see the Sonic Cruiser and its close rel
180 OzGlobal : Then we are agreed that Australian airlines operate in a more genuinely capitalist market than the American counterparts and that this, combined with
181 Post contains links PlaneAdmirer : Anyone else remember when Qantas wanted to go private? http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601009&sid=aQLzG14JJag4&refer=bond Gad what a di
182 jetfuel : Seriously give it 5 years and Qantas will be 10% Qantas Jetlink 30% Qantas 60% Jetstar
183 Baroque : Yes and yes, but it was still a disaster because Dixon in his infinite wisdom paid out a special dividend of around about a billion $ which QF could
184 Gemuser : That's changed. The first batch, the 15 B788s are going to QF, basically I gather, as B763 replacements. JQ will get the next batch, 15 B789. Which i
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