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GRU The Airport Of The Future!  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2972 posts, RR: 13
Posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10160 times:
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I just read the thread about Qatar to GRU. It "seems" like half the time new service is announced on Airliners.net it includes GRU!
I have been through GRU perhaps 70 times over the past 15 years and it has become better, the most recent renovation made it at least look ok, and admittedly it has some 1960's Brazilian charm with it's orange tiles.

But is it time for Brazil to knock the whole thing down and create the Changi of South America? Brazil is now a global magnet for business and tourism. TAM could use a beautiful, modern home base and all Star Alliance airlines a first class airport. Plus, Brazilians LOVE big new projects like this, even though sadly nothing has really has topped Christ the Redeemer.

But I see a future for GRU that is both futuristc as it is sexy. And naturally an H.Stern flagship store!

Any talks in Brazil of such an undertaking?


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9934 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
it has some 1960's Brazilian charm with it's orange tiles.

That's funny given the fact that the airport was built in the '80s... inaugurated in 85...

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Any talks in Brazil of such an undertaking?

No, GRU will get terminal 3 for the 2014 FIFA World and that's it. There is no more room for expansion.


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2972 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9833 times:
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That is indeed funny that GRU was built in the '80's. I love Brazil and have an apartment in Rio. But it's really only been the past 10 years when Brazil got it's head out of the 1960's ....it's heyday of Bossa Nova and Oscar Neimeyer.

What is Brazil's love affair with orange all about?

I would still knock it down and start over and have it look like the folks at Wish magazine designed it!



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9648 times:

GRU's major problem seems to be the lack of a third runway.

Until that issue is resolved, GRU will suffer operational restraints.

Building a third terminal and upgrading the existing terminals is definitely overdue, but needs to be part of a capacity increase through a third runway. Unfortunately, this will not be done in time for 2014 or 2016 they way airport infrastructure projects are being handled today in Brazil.

A high-speed rail link to central Sao Paulo is also badly needed.


User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1784 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9614 times:

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 3):
GRU's major problem seems to be the lack of a third runway.

I'm guessing there would be space for a third runway if they build it where the air force base is currently. Although they'd have to convince the military to move somewhere else.


User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9574 times:

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 4):
I'm guessing there would be space for a third runway if they build it where the air force base is currently. Although they'd have to convince the military to move somewhere else.

As far as I understand the third runway would be built on the far north side (not the airforce base side), but it would involve removing a rather large low income housing area, which is always a risky political gamble and not least in an election year.


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9538 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
I just read the thread about Qatar to GRU. It "seems" like half the time new service is announced on Airliners.net it includes GRU!
I have been through GRU perhaps 70 times over the past 15 years and it has become better, the most recent renovation made it at least look ok, and admittedly it has some 1960's Brazilian charm with it's orange tiles.

But is it time for Brazil to knock the whole thing down and create the Changi of South America? Brazil is now a global magnet for business and tourism. TAM could use a beautiful, modern home base and all Star Alliance airlines a first class airport. Plus, Brazilians LOVE big new projects like this, even though sadly nothing has really has topped Christ the Redeemer.

But I see a future for GRU that is both futuristc as it is sexy. And naturally an H.Stern flagship store!

Any talks in Brazil of such an undertaking?

I know it wasn't your intention, specially by the lack of knowledge, but your post is really ironic if we consider the current horrible situation of GRU Airport. The comparison with Changi just made it even worse!!!!

I can say that no 3rd runway is going to be built. The only new development is the 3rd terminal, that honestly is not gonna be ready anytime soon. Not for the World cup in 2014 or even the Olympics in 2016!

GRU is no Airport of the future! Is more like airport of the past right now!!!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9474 times:

Not only are the termnals at GRU not large enough but the airport is not designed for connecting traffic.

User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9459 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
It "seems" like half the time new service is announced on Airliners.net it includes GRU!

Thats right. It is amazing the expansion of GRU, in terms of connections the airport really looks like the airport of the future!

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
it has become better, the most recent renovation made it at least look ok, and admittedly it has some 1960's Brazilian charm with it's orange tiles.

I agree GRU has become better and it has its own charm. But we need a brand new airport to take care of Sao Paulo traffic. A new PEK terminal would be enough! I would say that the way ahead is a super, ultra-modern airport, connected with the high-speed train, and which would consolidate traffic from GRU, CGH and VCP. This would be the future SAO airport (or Sao Paulo airport of the future)!

This year there is Presidential elections in Brazil so nothing will move. If opposition party wins (the candidate is from Sao Paulo) we would certainly see major shift in Brazilian airport infrastructure policy.

Rgs,

[Edited 2010-02-08 02:02:43]

User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9415 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 8):
But we need a brand new airport to take care of Sao Paulo traffic.

Hardiwv, I would love to hear your suggestion for the location of such a new airport in SAO? Personally, I would go with VCP, pulling the current infrastructure down and building from scratch. The new bullet train line from Sao Paulo/Campinas to Rio could easily be built to integrate such plan.


User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9267 times:

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 9):
Hardiwv, I would love to hear your suggestion for the location of such a new airport in SAO? Personally, I would go with VCP, pulling the current infrastructure down and building from scratch. The new bullet train line from Sao Paulo/Campinas to Rio could easily be built to integrate such plan.

Campinas is well placed to become the new SAO airport provided speed rail link is provided. It would also become an inter-modal airport building on pax and cargo traffic. GOL CEO in a presentation last week in London stated the same, that Campinas should become Brazil's airport of the future. It also kills any ambition of real state speculation regarding other locations.

Rgs,


User currently offlinealwaysontherun From Netherlands Antilles, joined Jan 2010, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9116 times:

Although not brilliant, GRU still beats GIG.

There are billboards at GIG stating that they are "building to become one of the best 10 airports in the world".
There is still "some" work to be done for that.
It is a concrete jungle, not a very nice gateway to an otherwise fascinating city.

How I prefer Santos Dumont for domestic flights and GRU for international flights!

### "I am always on the Run"###



"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8577 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9060 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
But is it time for Brazil to knock the whole thing down and create the Changi of South America?

GRU will never be at the crossroads of the World that SIN is so therefore it makes little sense to design and build an intercontinental hub like SIN/HKG/ICN or even the likes of the European hubs. A better comparison for GRU is SYD or JNB.


User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8914 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 12):
GRU will never be at the crossroads of the World

SAO airport would be built to serve Sao Paulo traffic, SAO would be at the crossroads beween a world city, Sao Paulo, and the rest of world. Thats why I mentioned PEK. And even so GRU+CGH+VCP together already handle about the same traffic of SIN!

We need another airport in Brazil devoted for connections, it could be GIG (which already has substantive O&D).

Rgs,

[Edited 2010-02-08 06:56:20]

User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7959 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 12):
A better comparison for GRU is SYD or JNB.

Hardly correct, current and projected future demographics taken into consideration.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7874 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 10):
Campinas is well placed to become the new SAO airport provided speed rail link is provided.

As is right now, the fast rail project is working against the scenario of VCP becoming the main SAO airport. The project designed to cover Campinas downtown into Rio downtown with multiple stops (including VCP and SP downtown) has a humongous cost attached to it with a very dubious financial viability. The project can only get off the ground if financial viability is ignored. A shorter link, doing say from GRU to downtown SP to VCP, has a much lower cost with a better case.

If that were to happen, I would like to see the SAO airport system move away from CGH: Move all international flights into VCP. Close customs and immigration at GRU. Move all CGH flights into GRU. Shorten the opening hours of CGH into 0700-2100 and allow only general aviation in it. Buldoze most of its passenger terminal.

But it will be years before this gets moving. Companies that create dominant market positions tend to push events in perverse ways. A stronger Azul may seriously resist an invasion of VCP by all carriers/flights now operating at GRU.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
But is it time for Brazil to knock the whole thing down and create the Changi of South America?

GRU could be expanded to function as a much bigger airport than it is today. Across the runway there is an air base. They could go. The third runway is deemed infeasible just because of the cost of relocating the people who invaded its assigned land - I see it more as a political ploy. They could build a short runway to operate primarily for narrow-body/commuter landings. There is enough land to build a really nice big terminal.



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User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7781 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
As is right now, the fast rail project is working against the scenario of VCP becoming the main SAO airport. The project designed to cover Campinas downtown into Rio downtown with multiple stops (including VCP and SP downtown) has a humongous cost attached to it with a very dubious financial viability. The project can only get off the ground if financial viability is ignored. A shorter link, doing say from GRU to downtown SP to VCP, has a much lower cost with a better case.

The bullet train is planned to go from Campinas to Sao Paulo to Rio. It will have a stop at VCP, then go on to Sao Paulo, not downtown but Campo de Marte, which is outer suburb and today is used as an executive airport. I can't see why that would not work in favor of VCP?


User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7469 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
If that were to happen, I would like to see the SAO airport system move away from CGH: Move all international flights into VCP. Close customs and immigration at GRU. Move all CGH flights into GRU. Shorten the opening hours of CGH into 0700-2100 and allow only general aviation in it. Buldoze most of its passenger terminal.

This could be another alternative. But you seem to agree that the future is in Campinas.

CGH: Executive aviation
GRU: Domestic only
VCP: International and domestic

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 16):
The bullet train is planned to go from Campinas to Sao Paulo to Rio. It will have a stop at VCP, then go on to Sao Paulo, not downtown but Campo de Marte, which is outer suburb and today is used as an executive airport. I can't see why that would not work in favor of VCP?

His mentioned was for the financial viability of such project, which with public money will surely become viable. One has to consider that certain infra-structure projects may not take into account only the financial viability but other factors such as social considerations.

The official bidding process for the bullet train is scheduled to start on 02 May 2010.

http://economia.terra.com.br/noticia...dNoticia=201002041348_RED_78731119

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
Companies that create dominant market positions tend to push events in perverse ways. A stronger Azul may seriously resist an invasion of VCP by all carriers/flights now operating at GRU.

They could give Azul another hub in SDU  

Rgs,


User currently offlinefamfflores From Brazil, joined Jun 2009, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7452 times:

GRU is not the airport of the future. VCP could be put down and re-built. There is even a railway line (not active) that connects Sao Paulo train system to VCP airport. This airport must immediately be expanded. The problem with any logistical issue in Brazil is 1) government monopoly, that completely prohibits private investments and 2) Brazilian politicians. Expect changes soon? no. There was a plan to privatize the VCP airport but now the government prefers to sell a licence-use ("concessao") for private companies to run the airport. This model, differently than the 100% sale of the asset, does not solve the expansion issue because investments remains a State obligation. For GRU, government should still run the airport for years.

Last time I used GRU to travel to Maranhao (3 hour flight) I spent more time in the car to get from Sao Paulo city to the airport (4 looong hours). No railway connection and the projected connection should not be built until 2017 (much after world cup, etc...)

Yes, we need a new airport (VCP or another), but we definitely need to allow more private investments for this.

[Edited 2010-02-08 09:28:09]

[Edited 2010-02-08 09:30:29]

User currently offlineLongHaul67 From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7196 times:

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 3):
GRU's major problem seems to be the lack of a third runway.

Airports much larger than GRU are able to manage with only 2 runways, e.g LHR, HKG, BKK.
I believe terminal capacity is a bigger issue in order to grow the airport.

If we compare GRU to an airport like HKG the amount of airport land is roughly the same, meaning it should be possible to build a modern high capacity airport capable of handling 40 mill+ pax per year where GRU is located now.
But for that to make sense GRU and CGH will need to be merged into one airport.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 12):
GRU will never be at the crossroads of the World that SIN is so therefore it makes little sense to design and build an intercontinental hub like SIN/HKG/ICN or even the likes of the European hubs. A better comparison for GRU is SYD or JNB.

The total amount of pax for GRU and CGH together is 35 mill pax per year, roughly the same as BKK and SIN.
If we add a substantial growth rate on top of that there is no doubt the market is there, and that Sao Paulo Metropolitan area and Brazil needs a modern and efficient gateway.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7172 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 17):
This could be another alternative. But you seem to agree that the future is in Campinas.

Let's just say I am not there yet.

Not everybody who uses an airport relies on an available rail link, so VCP as the airport of choice will be inconvenient to a lot of SP Capital travelers.

Then a GRU/VCP arrangement like I mentioned will end up with GRU holding the bulk of domestic capacity. Today CGH has most of the CNF/CWB/BSB type flights. Anything for or beyond SSA is almost all at GRU. With a CGH closure and a customs closure at GRU, most of SSA/REC/FOR/BEL/MAO will tend to stay at GRU. GRU will be a strong domestic hub. The other side of this is that the domestic schedule at VCP may be somewhat weak. For example, in a grown domestic market ~2025 in this scenario, JJ might be running 5 GRU-NAT and 2 VCP-NAT a day. The connectivity for international flights may suck.

I would still prefer to let VCP grow naturally as the airport of the second largest market in the country and expand GRU so as to not constrain demand.



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User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2972 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7172 times:
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Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 6):

I was joking. While there are charming aspects to GRU, I want to see more state of the art tecnology and design for GRU. I mention Changi for no other reason than it's beauty.
So many people will be coming to Brazil over the next 10 years and so many new and great airlines adding GRU, I would love to see the first touchpoint in Brazil to be as big a WOW as the rest of the country!



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7080 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 20):
Not everybody who uses an airport relies on an available rail link, so VCP as the airport of choice will be inconvenient to a lot of SP Capital travelers.

Let's not forget that even by car, it is many times easier to get to VCP than to GRU. VCP has two major highways going from Sao Paulo to its vicinity.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6982 times:

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 22):
Let's not forget that even by car, it is many times easier to get to VCP than to GRU. VCP has two major highways going from Sao Paulo to its vicinity.

That really depends on where you are in the city and traffic conditions. I have never taken longer than 1:20 to reach GRU from the vicinity of Centro Empresarial. On a good day 45 min. From CGH to GRU on a good day it is 35 min. I think it is impossible to go from CGH to VCP on less than 1:15. Bandeirantes is not traffic-free either.



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User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6747 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 23):

Traffic in Sao Paulo is not an exact science. I guess we can agree on that.

That is exactly why I think that a high-speed train terminal at Campo de Marte with check-in facilities like in Hong Kong or like Paddington used to have it for LHR would be a wonderful solution for Sao Paulo.


25 Incitatus : Yes, definetely an unknown quantity. For sure slow, but 5 kph and 15 kph lead to very different results. By the way Google Maps show a whole construc
26 YOWGangsta : I once took the TAM shuttle bus between the two airports (CGH/GRU) and it took more than 2.5hrs! Brazil has neglected its infrastructure for far too
27 BDL : I have had to spend 11 hours in GRU... twice! Connecting from JFK-ASU-JFK on TAM. It was horrendous. It was hot and there is nothing to do but sit and
28 LongHaul67 : The area around Sao Paulo is very mountainous and built up, limiting any real good options for building a new airport from scratch. Also, Sao Paulo ne
29 LAXdude1023 : Im not so sure. The last time I was at GRU, it looked quite archaic. Maybe they have done lots of renevations in the last 9 months?
30 C010T3 : No, nothing was done in the meantime.
31 Aeroflot001 : Since GRU opened its doors in 1985 what airport was used for international flights prior. I'm assuming it was not Congonhas. ?
32 PPVRA : I agree GRU needs to be completely rebuilt, but I do not trust Infraero to do this properly. Much less timely. More like "Sure not. . ."
33 C010T3 : CGH for short and medium-haul and VCP for long-haul.
34 jmbarros12 : As a brazilian, I have to admit that GRU airport embaresses me a lot when compared to other less important airports in south america, not to mention t
35 LipeGIG : My opinion is that, in regards to getting services, it's kind of comparison between Brazil, India and China. China got 3 large gateways with increased
36 hardiwv : I agree that runaway is not the problem, the issue is that GRU needs to get its new T3 ready as soon as possible. The current major problem in GRU is
37 AAEXP : Just asking?: Aren't the two runways at GRU too close together to allow simultaneous landings and departures (SFO like problem on a smaller scale)? N
38 LipeGIG : They are too close and can't run simultaneous operations. What the tower is doing now is allowing departure as soon as a landed plane is safe. Runway
39 PPVRA : Yeah, and it's not like they even have that much going on there anyways. Most you ever see is just a few planes. They should move elsewhere. They can
40 Incitatus : Before GRU opened VCP was used by many European carriers and a few Latin American ones. In the 80s US carriers had already abandoned it even though P
41 WorldTraveler : Felipe, DL does operate BSB-ATL service... not daily at this point..... Brazil's air transportation system is still far too concentrated on SAO which
42 LipeGIG : Yes i know WT, but as i mentioned not daily which is a shame. Only 3 markets holds daily service non-stop both ways ! SSA, REC, CNF, POA, CWB, BSB an
43 Incitatus : And that would also be a boom to GIG - you should have mentioned it. The best solution is to have the largest hub where the largest demand is. Think
44 OP3000 : I agree their airport infrastructure is not there for intercontinental/widebodies. But the main reason is that unlike the NE they don't require backh
45 LipeGIG : I don't think GIG could become a major hub. GIG just deserve to provide better service to a market that need some additional missing services. Just t
46 Rafabozzolla : I totally agree with you. In spite of a large traffic increases lately, Brazil is NOT the USA. In order to have critical mass you still have to put t
47 Incitatus : New York is a huge metropolis more spread out than Sao Paulo, a much bigger market, and with huge infrastructure problems that would cost an incredib
48 LipeGIG : Just showing how important is to have dispersion on the air traffic. I visit corporation all around in the US, something it's not the case in Brazil.
49 OP3000 : I agree with your point. Although even in countries/regions that already have that critical mass (USA/Europe), the airports in the largest O&D ci
50 hardiwv : I agree with you and you dont need to re-state the facts because this is simply dictated by market dynamics. See how airlines pile up to operate in G
51 Incitatus : This is the other way around: Dispersion of economic growth drives air traffic. It cannot be the reverse because profit margins for air transport are
52 LipeGIG : You would not lose money. Just need to use the right equipment for the right market, but the main driver for this is the regulator that shall use inc
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