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Why Keep Building The 767-400?  
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18614 times:

For some reason the little magnifying glass to look up similar posts doesn't work, so I ask, if the 764 isn't flying up to par with the A330, then why would Boeing continue to build it? IMHO, I think it would make an excellent freighter, almost like the MD-11. I'm sure Boeing had it's reasons, but why did they base the 767F on the -300 rather than the -400, when the -400 is obviously longer and has a better payload? There are no current orders for it, CO and DL were the only airlines to order it, and I'm pretty sure they won't be in the market for another one for quite some time, so why not end it's production?


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18634 times:

They don't still build 764's, they are NOT in production. The 767 Freighter is based on the 763 as that was the biggest 767 when they came out with it. DL and CO were NOT the only airlines to order it, Kenya Airways did too but then it was cancelled before it was fulfilled.

FX1816


User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18561 times:

A couple things.

First, if they are going to build the 767-300 then they can offer the 767-400 with almost no extra cost. As you said DL and CO are the only airlines to order them, so until someone else orders them they won't build any.

As for the freighter, the reason that Boeing went with the -300 was the weight that the two airplanes can carry. It has more power to weight than the 767-400. Remember passengers are a lot lighter than the freight that airlines carry, with the exception of maybe FedEx and UPS. The same reason that the 747-8 is doing better as a freighter than the A380 as the 747-8 can lift more weight compared to the size of the aircraft. Yes the 767-400 has more floor space but the takeoff weight isn't significantly higher so it can not lift as much weight. Meaning it will reach its maximum weight before it ever reaches its maximum volume. This is not what freight carriers are looking for.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18463 times:

I'm sure that they'd build 767-400s for the right customer. They have to keep the supply chain available because the KC-767s for USAF use the 767-400 flight deck, and perhaps other parts.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6471 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18290 times:

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 1):
They don't still build 764's, they are NOT in production. The 767 Freighter is based on the 763 as that was the biggest 767 when they came out with it. DL and CO were NOT the only airlines to order it, Kenya Airways did too but then it was cancelled before it was fulfilled.

Wrong, the 764ER is indeed still in production. DL still has unexercised options for the 764ER, and should DL exercise these options, Boeing will build it for them.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2306 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18286 times:

Would the 764 perhaps better serve as a Freighter model? I am aware that Boeing now has the 777F, however could the 764 perhaps be used as a DC-8 or -10 replacement?


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18079 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 1):
They don't still build 764's, they are NOT in production. The 767 Freighter is based on the 763 as that was the biggest 767 when they came out with it. DL and CO were NOT the only airlines to order it, Kenya Airways did too but then it was cancelled before it was fulfilled.

Wrong, the 764ER is indeed still in production. DL still has unexercised options for the 764ER, and should DL exercise these options, Boeing will build it for them.

Technically yes as long as the 767 line is open BUT it has been a long time since they have actually built one and that is the point I was getting at if you really read what I put. Yes DL may have some orders remaining but since they haven't exercised them yet I doubt they ever will.

FX1816

[Edited 2010-02-08 20:32:47]

[Edited 2010-02-08 20:34:09]

User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18028 times:

Two Words. 767 Tanker.

Assuming Shelby doesn't expose that pack of crooks and liars again.


User currently offlinevctony From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17918 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
Wrong, the 764ER is indeed still in production. DL still has unexercised options for the 764ER, and should DL exercise these options, Boeing will build it for them.

As DL flies the A330-200 and the 767-400ER, I'd venture to say that in the unlikely chance that DL ever needs an aircraft of that size, DL will order more A330-200s (yes, I know about the Boeing "contract" but I believe that the A330-200 in most respects is the better performer of the two aircrafts and if it's already in the fleet plan, they might as well get more).

Suffice to say, the 767-400 has been effectively replaced with the 787 (with hundreds of orders).


User currently offlineOURBOEING From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15928 times:

I had the SWEET opportunity to check out a brand spanking new UPS 767 freighter a couple of months ago. One of the UPS engineers who is responsible for maintenance and I were talking about airplanes while I was visiting his office for business.

He was like, " Let me take you out of the hanger and show you something that you may have never seen before"

We walked out and there was this brand new UPS 767 that was just delivered to them and I had the opportunity to check every inch of this gorgeous aircraft. I didn't bother taking pictures as I wanted to enjoy the moment. Him and I walked from the cockpit to all the way back to the tail inside of this wide body jet and that's when I could feel the size of the cargo area of the huge fuselage. This beauty didn't even have a scratch on it especially a rare thing in a cargo aircraft arena 

Absolutely amazing!!

OURBOEING


User currently offlineoyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14989 times:

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 1):
DL and CO were NOT the only airlines to order it, Kenya Airways did too but then it was cancelled before it was fulfilled.

The Kenya Airways order was for the 767-400ERX. When Boeing cancelled that project Kenya choose to take delivery of the 777-200ER instead. Imagine how a 767-400ER would look with the GEnx engines that are fitted on the 747-8F   That would make the 767-400ER even prettier.

Quoting OURBOEING (Reply 9):
Absolutely amazing!!

Nice. A bit on the sidenote. But do the brand new 767 still come with a CRT screen.

Quoting vctony (Reply 8):
DL will order more A330-200s (yes, I know about the Boeing "contract" but I believe that the A330-200 in most respects is the better performer of the two aircrafts and if it's already in the fleet plan, they might as well get more).

While I love both the 767-400ER and A330-200, I have not come to a rest that in every respect the A330-200 is obviously the better perfomer. It weighs 20 tonnes more, and need more fuel for a certain distance than the 767-400ER. So when there is a low cargo demand and a shorter sector the 767-400ER will be an impressive performer. The 767-400ER has a 5% lower operating cost relative to the A330-200. But if you can take advantage of the A332 larger cargo space it will outperform the 767-400ER.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineBmiBaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1803 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14879 times:

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 6):
Technically yes as long as the 767 line is open BUT it has been a long time since they have actually built one

The last one flew on 21 March 2008; not that long ago! It doesn't cost Boeing anymore to keep the 767-400 production line technically open, same for the 737-600 and for Airbus the A318.


User currently offlineSolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1040 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13363 times:

I think it was said earlier but the 767 line as a whole will shut down soon if KC-X Tanker is not built. They have 10 or 11 orders per year but i don't think there is much left past Jan '11. I am not sure why people would order the 767 now unless they already had it in their fleet and/or the price for a new one was very low. Otherwise, most orders are going the way of 787 or A330.

User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13214 times:

Quoting oyKIE (Reply 10):
Nice. A bit on the sidenote. But do the brand new 767 still come with a CRT screen.

I wondered the same thing. My guess is yes they still come with CRT screens for commonality purposes.

Quoting oyKIE (Reply 10):
While I love both the 767-400ER and A330-200, I have not come to a rest that in every respect the A330-200 is obviously the better perfomer. It weighs 20 tonnes more, and need more fuel for a certain distance than the 767-400ER. So when there is a low cargo demand and a shorter sector the 767-400ER will be an impressive performer. The 767-400ER has a 5% lower operating cost relative to the A330-200. But if you can take advantage of the A332 larger cargo space it will outperform the 767-400ER.

I agree with you. There are obviously missions where the 764ER is probably the better of the two to operate. I know that DL/CO love their 764ERs and use them on a pretty wide range of routes. All in all though, the A332 is the more efficient per seat, and can carry a bunch more cargo, and for most routes, that makes a huge difference in revenue. Not to mention the resale value on A332s will be astronomically better.

Back on topic, I think the topic has been addressed pretty well already. I think it's a combination of when Boeing initially offered the 767F (long before the EIS of the 764ER) and the better payload to weight the 763ERF offers over the 764ER.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13112 times:

Quoting BmiBaby737 (Reply 11):
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 6):
Technically yes as long as the 767 line is open BUT it has been a long time since they have actually built one

The last one flew on 21 March 2008; not that long ago! It doesn't cost Boeing anymore to keep the 767-400 production line technically open, same for the 737-600 and for Airbus the A318.

Ok but when was the last build of a CO or DL 764??? I know it doesn't cost anymore to keep the 764 line open and I never said it was closed all I said was that they are not still producing them, there isn't one single 764 on the production line right now!!!

  

FX1816


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6471 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13077 times:

Quoting vctony (Reply 8):
As DL flies the A330-200 and the 767-400ER, I'd venture to say that in the unlikely chance that DL ever needs an aircraft of that size, DL will order more A330-200s (yes, I know about the Boeing "contract" but I believe that the A330-200 in most respects is the better performer of the two aircrafts and if it's already in the fleet plan, they might as well get more).

Suffice to say, the 767-400 has been effectively replaced with the 787 (with hundreds of orders).

As far as I know though, DL doesn't have any unexercised options for the A332. Also, most of DL's A332 flights are on long-haul routes that are outside the 764ER's range. Cargo has never been an issue with DL's 764ER routes, and because the 764ER has a 5% lower operating cost than the A332 on routes within its range, the 764ER seems to make sense for many of Delta's Europe routes. As for the A333, it could work on some of Delta's Europe routes, however, it may be too big for other routes, considering that DL did temporarily park some A333s over the holiday season.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12996 times:
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Quote:
they are not still producing them, there isn't one single 764 on the production line right now!!!

Beacause no one has ordered a 764, infact I think there is one just sitting around down there.



Boiler Up!
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12890 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 16):
Quote:
they are not still producing them, there isn't one single 764 on the production line right now!!!


Beacause no one has ordered a 764, infact I think there is one just sitting around down there.

I know that, I've just been stating that they are not building one right now. I never disputed the fact that one can't still be built but that there are NONE being built. Hence the topic title of "Why keep BUILDING the 767-400"

FX1816


User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12581 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):
As far as I know though, DL doesn't have any unexercised options for the A332. Also, most of DL's A332 flights are on long-haul routes that are outside the 764ER's range. Cargo has never been an issue with DL's 764ER routes, and because the 764ER has a 5% lower operating cost than the A332 on routes within its range, the 764ER seems to make sense for many of Delta's Europe routes. As for the A333, it could work on some of Delta's Europe routes, however, it may be too big for other routes, considering that DL did temporarily park some A333s over the holiday season.

The A332 is a more flexible aircraft. I highly doubt Delta's are 5% more expensive to operate than their 764s, and for the (more likely) 2% or 3% penalty you get an aircraft that can handle more missions with more payload, and will retain vastly better resale value to boot.

But Delta is unlikely to order either 764s or A332s, because the 787-8 is better than both. Delta will either convert those 764 options to 787s or 77Ls, or work out a deal to drop them in exchange for a discount on a future order. We'll know what will happen once DL settles on a 787 strategy.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12223 times:

Less then 1 767 a month is delivered during the last 7 years. Almost all cargo I assume. I think Boeing offered very attractive deals to keep the line open for the KC-X competition. If it doesn't win that contract I guess the line is gone.

User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12188 times:

Boeing doesn't build the 767-400 anymore. It may be offered in the catalog, but it is not built.

They did build a single plane a couple of years back for the DOD (Dept of Defense) - but that was a prototype for a small fleet to be ordered (E-10) and they probably got the DOD to pay the full cost of just the one plane run when the project was cancelled.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30865 posts, RR: 86
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11687 times:
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Quoting keesje (Reply 19):
ess then 1 767 a month is delivered during the last 7 years. Almost all cargo I assume.

You know what they say about assumptions...  

Of the 91 767s delivered between January 2003 and January 2010:

767-200ER - 09
767-300ER - 66
767-400ER - 01
767-300F - 15


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11471 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Of the 91 767s delivered between January 2003 and January 2010:

767-200ER - 09
767-300ER - 66
767-400ER - 01
767-300F - 15

76 passenger 767s...that's a lot more than I thought. I assume the 762ERs were for CO, the 764ER for DL/CO, and majority of the 763ERs for LAN/JL/NH?



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11130 times:

AZ also flies the 764. Did they acquire those new or from other carrier(s)?

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10958 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):
Cargo has never been an issue with DL's 764ER routes, and because the 764ER has a 5% lower operating cost than the A332 on routes within its range, the 764ER seems to make sense for many of Delta's Europe routes.

I have suspected that the 764 vs. A330 argurment is largely a function of geography.

Quoting ADent (Reply 20):
They did build a single plane a couple of years back for the DOD (Dept of Defense) - but that was a prototype for a small fleet to be ordered (E-10) and they probably got the DOD to pay the full cost of just the one plane run when the project was cancelled.

That plane was sold to a a Middle Eastern country (Bahrain I believe) for use as a business jet.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 23):
AZ also flies the 764.

No they don't. 764 is a designation for one of their configurations on the 767-300ER. It probably also show up if AZ codeshares on any DL 764 flights, but AZ has no 767-400ERs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 Post contains images Stitch : Boeing lists all of the 767-200ER deliveries as UFOs...    The 767-400ER was intended for the USAF, but instead was re-sold to Bahrain Royal Fl
26 Post contains images LimaNiner : Seems like an opportunistic buyer could get a great deal on a 767 in order to help Boeing keep the line open for the tanker... An opportunistic 764-VI
27 FX1816 : I believe this has already been discussed in the forum but it is destined for a buyer in Bahrain I believe it is. FX1816
28 CMB56 : Quote from N328K I'm sure that they'd build 767-400s for the right customer. They have to keep the supply chain available because the KC-767s for USAF
29 Stitch : Boeing has decided to not pitch the "Frankentanker" (KC-767 Advanced) for the new RFP. Instead, they will probably base it on the current KC-767A as
30 Post contains images oyKIE : I suppose you are right. Does anyone on here know? Maybe we should start a new thread discussing this very specific part :-p Indeed the life cycle co
31 LTU932 : No, they don't. For AZ, 764 is simply the designation given to those 767-300s in their fleet, that have a certain configuration.
32 WesternA318 : So the 767 has a dwindling assembly line, hrmm, how is the A330 line? What is the wait to get an A330 vs. the 767?
33 Spacepope : They're all military (JASDF tanker/AWACS and Italian AF tankers)
34 kingFriday013 : They can keep the 764 line open because it doesn't cost them anything. As long as the 767 line is open, any of the current production models (-200ER,
35 SeaBosDca : Boeing is only offering the three -ER models at this point, although I'm sure you can get a -300ER with a very low MTOW rating if you like.
36 Stitch : That is what I figured, though Boeing's O&D pages does have entries for the Italian Air Force and Boeing IDS, so you think they could have filed
37 Post contains images LimaNiner : Sure -- I was referring to additional opportunistic buyers.  
38 Stitch : You could argue NH, JL, LA and 5X have all done so. However, the 767 has a minimum profitable production rate so if they cannot secure that number of
39 tdscanuck : The normal meaning of "in production" is that you can get one built. By that definition, the 767-400ER is still in production. It's absolutely true t
40 thegeek : And won't that apply to 767 vs 787 even in the future? Or does engine SFC and aero tweaks make up the difference in OEW?
41 FX1816 : I don't know but it's not my topic and I was meaning that the 764 is not in ACTIVE production, or not being built currently. I was just answering the
42 viscount724 : Airlines apparently disagree or at least one would have ordered the 764 in the past 13 years. The last airline order for the 764 was from CO on Octob
43 N328KF : I don't think you can go by the past 13 years. Up until 2003, there was no 767 replacement on the horizon, but after that, the 767-400 was easily rep
44 oyKIE : For shorter routes Boeing knew that the767-300ER with winglets would be almost as efficient as the 787-3. The 767-400ER has a higher lifecycle cost t
45 WesternA318 : Again, whats the estimated wait times on the 767 production line vs. the A330 line?
46 N328KF : I would bet that UPS and Boeing would let you jump the line if you wanted the 767 (within the constraints of your desired order type.)
47 WesternA318 : I guess that kinda helps, Homeric Tour sof New York is looking at some sort fo new build widebody for NYC and ORD to Athens flying.
48 FUN2FLY : Why does JAL keep buying the 763 if the 764 is so much better?
49 Josh32121 : My bad. I fell for their misleading abbreviation. While we're talking about 763 vs. 764, the 764 has different windows (same as 777) and a different
50 Stitch : It appears they and NH seem to find the 767-300ER fine in conjunction with the 777-200, 777-200ER and 777-300 for their domestic operations.
51 Airnerd : I would think that the 764 could actually be tailored to be a very good short range/high capacity aircraft for routes like the domestic Japanese netw
52 DALMD88 : DL tried using the 764 on high density ATL- Florida routes. The high cycle turns really spiked the In flight shutdown rate. So bad that we almost los
53 Stitch : The 767-400ERX would have had engines rated for 72,000 pounds of thrust.
54 Airnerd : It's funny, because it seems like as long as you aren't loading the -400 to the max with fuel and cargo for long range ops, you don't really need big
55 thegeek : Thanks for that post! Is that with the CF6's? Will the rumored upgrades to the CF6 address this? This does explain how come QF haven't ordered the 76
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