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JAL Schedule Changes For FY2010  
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5376 times:

Here are some of the changes in JL schedule released Feb 4.
JAL Group Route and Flight Frequency Plan for First Half FY2010

NRT = PVG 28 to 21 weekly (Mar 28) JL619 / 610 suspended
NRT= GRU via JFK 3 to 2 weekly (Mar 28)

NRT = SGN 6 to 7 weekly (Mar 28)
NRT = HAN 3 to 7 weekly (Mar 28)
NRT = CTS 14 to 21 weekly (Apr 1) this is a feeder flight
NRT = GUM (JO941 / JO942) 747-400 to 763 (Mar 28)

JL will close their Shizouka, Kobe, and Matsumoto offices.
NGO looses Kushiro and Iwate-hanamaki flights.
Kitakyusu - Naha suspended May 6

There will be schedule increases and decreases across Japan.

What is surprising is a lack of major cuts in the international as many (including myself) have predicted.


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2946 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5178 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
What is surprising is a lack of major cuts in the international as many (including myself) have predicted.

Probably still in the study phase as the new management team has taken office for only a week.
With the announcement that JL is staying with OW, NRT-JFK-GRU will probably be history by end of summer.
I would not be surprised AMS, MXP & FCO all get dropped on the European side.
More 744s will leave for the US deserts and replaced by 763s on the Asian runs.


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5062 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 1):
I would not be surprised AMS, MXP & FCO all get dropped on the European side.

Chances are big that AMS and MXP will remain (MXP becoming B777 in due time then)

FCO and DME might be axed though... at least, that's what I would expect.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 1):
More 744s will leave for the US deserts and replaced by 763s on the Asian runs.

And a few more B77W's for longhaul operations (US/Europe).



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32615 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5026 times:

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 2):

FCO and DME might be axed though... at least, that's what I would expect.

With S7 joining oneWorld later this year, there is value in keeping this link.



a.
User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4947 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
With S7 joining oneWorld later this year, there is value in keeping this link.

True, but you might also expect S7 to operate DME-NRT, instead of JAL.
Operating a 3 weekly flight to this station is a huge cost for JAL. Let alone think about keeping open offices, hiring staff, accomodation to crew etc. Also performance of this flight is not really great as far I can see...



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4935 times:

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 2):
Chances are big that AMS and MXP will remain (MXP becoming B777 in due time then)

FCO and DME might be axed though... at least, that's what I would expect.

I think they cannot cut back too much of Europe. Even if they do not have a local partner, having a route to a non-partner hub can still be strategically good for the entire entity.

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 2):
And a few more B77W's for longhaul operations (US/Europe).

The US is almost all 77W now but there are still a few 744s doing North America; YVR, LAX and the GRU run. I am wondering about maybe some 772LRs to replace older 772ERs. But with 35 787s, they could do quite a bit and be very diversified.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
With S7 joining oneWorld later this year, there is value in keeping this link.

I wonder if S7 will gain some rights to NRT? A little trade here...a little move to HND there...Open slots...new entry.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4921 times:

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 2):
Chances are big that AMS and MXP will remain

How is the AMS flight doing? There are quite some business links between the Netherlands and Japan, so I can imagine this flight will stay. It would be sad to loose JL at AMS anyway.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 6):
How is the AMS flight doing? There are quite some business links between the Netherlands and Japan, so I can imagine this flight will stay. It would be sad to loose JL at AMS anyway.

The AMS flight is doing pretty well actually, also in the higher segment. Additionally the flight is basically used by the normal public as the ultimate feeder to the European mainland, since AMS has outstanding smooth and safe transfer possibilities on many airlines.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4866 times:

WOW JAL has flown a 747 NRT-GUM since early 1980's sad to see it go end of an Era

Probally longest standing route operated by same airline and aircraft type..in the world


User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3635 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4659 times:
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Quoting carpethead (Reply 1):
With the announcement that JL is staying with OW, NRT-JFK-GRU will probably be history by end of summer.

I don't know about that. I recall a restriction in the US-Brazil bilateral that prevents a codeshare on U.S.-Brazil flights with a non-U.S. or Brazilian airline.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 5):
The US is almost all 77W now but there are still a few 744s doing North America; YVR, LAX and the GRU run.

LAX is already a 77W. Only YVR and the 3x (soon 2x) weekly 2nd JFK flight remain 744s.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 8):
Probally longest standing route operated by same airline and aircraft type..in the world

For JAL it would be HNL with the 747. JAL's first 747 flight and destination was HND-HNL on July 1, 1970. JAL still flies the 744 to HNL.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
What is surprising is a lack of major cuts in the international as many (including myself) have predicted.

JL can either make the announcement later or once again show why they have flirted w/ insolvency so many times... there is hard work to be done to get JL's costs down in order to keep alot of flying... unless the costs come out, JL will be right back where it was a week ago in just another couple years.

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 2):
Chances are big that AMS and MXP will remain (MXP becoming B777 in due time then)

It is very doubtful that Skyteam carriers will continue to cooperate (codeshare) on these flights or on beyond traffic which makes it far less viable to fly there.
Alliance restrictions are pretty clear about codesharing outside the alliance when higher level agreements (ATI/JV) are in place.

Quoting ha763 (Reply 9):
I don't know about that. I recall a restriction in the US-Brazil bilateral that prevents a codeshare on U.S.-Brazil flights with a non-U.S. or Brazilian airline.

Brazil doesn't have Open Skies w/ the US and the current treaty doesn't allow 3rd party codesharing between the US and Brazil... it would make far more sense for AA to fly the route for JL but that can't be done - and is unlikely given that the needed capacity isn't coming at GRU which is what would be needed for Open Skies.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4617 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
It is very doubtful that Skyteam carriers will continue to cooperate (codeshare) on these flights or on beyond traffic which makes it far less viable to fly there.

There is no codeshare between KL & JL on AMS-NRT.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4534 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
It is very doubtful that Skyteam carriers will continue to cooperate (codeshare) on these flights or on beyond traffic which makes it far less viable to fly there.

Indeed as said already. JL has no codeshare with KL flights. Also within Europe no codeshare agreement excist. Still, KL do a lot of connecting traffic into Europe for JL. Ticketing is not an issue at all.

ex AMS, JL codeshares with oneworld partners AY (from/to HEL), IB (from/to MAD) and MA (from/to BUD).
Maybe more can be added in the future. I think about AMS-LCY (BA) to mention a possible important one...



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 2):
And a few more B77W's for longhaul operations (US/Europe).

JL's current 77W's are relatively low density (292 seats). Any chance they will add or reconfigure 77W's with a higher density to make up for the loss of the 744's. Such as a smaller F cabin (following QF) for example?

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 12):
JL has no codeshare with KL flights

KL and JL do cooperate on all flights, except the routes between the Netherlands and Japan. So that would explain why KL do a lot of connecting traffic for JL. The same for example for internal flights in Japan. It's also possible to save Flying Blue points with JL.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7193 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4350 times:
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For the time being, doesn't look like N. America got hit hard at all. I suspect this will change. Wonder if AA would pick up any routes for JL to Asia.   

User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4287 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 1):
With the announcement that JL is staying with OW, NRT-JFK-GRU will probably be history by end of summer.
Quoting ha763 (Reply 9):
I don't know about that. I recall a restriction in the US-Brazil bilateral that prevents a codeshare on U.S.-Brazil flights with a non-U.S. or Brazilian airline.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
Brazil doesn't have Open Skies w/ the US and the current treaty doesn't allow 3rd party codesharing between the US and Brazil... it would make far more sense for AA to fly the route for JL but that can't be done

JAL will stay in GRU. As stated the bilateral does not allow for codeshare on JFK-GRU (the same reason KE does not codeshare with DL on LAX-GRU). There is huge traffic flow Japan-Brazil (high and low yields) and although there are plenty of options to fly between GRU and NRT with other airlines, JAL remains the preferred option by the Japanese community.

Rgs,


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4876 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4230 times:
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Quoting FXramper (Reply 14):
doesn't look like N. America got hit hard at all.

Outside of Hawaii, JL's U.S. operations have been so decimated over the years that there is hardly anything left to cut except for the extra flight(s) to JFK/GRU. Right now, JL only has one daily flight (292 seats on the 77W) in each of these markets:

NRT-LAX
NRT-SFO
NRT-ORD
NRT-JFK


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 13):
KL and JL do cooperate on all flights, except the routes between the Netherlands and Japan. So that would explain why KL do a lot of connecting traffic for JL.

Yes they do, but no codeshare, only collecting mileage points on eachothers loyalty programms.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 13):
JL's current 77W's are relatively low density (292 seats).

But well used in this premium outfit, so making good money on the routes they currently fly.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 13):
Any chance they will add or reconfigure 77W's with a higher density to make up for the loss of the 744's.

No, not at this moment. JAL's 744s was not neccesary a problem regarding it's cabins. It's fuel consumption which plays a major role here. Together with downscaling in the network, B777's and 767's can take-over most routes and do the trick.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4101 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 15):
JAL will stay in GRU. As stated the bilateral does not allow for codeshare on JFK-GRU (the same reason KE does not codeshare with DL on LAX-GRU). There is huge traffic flow Japan-Brazil (high and low yields) and although there are plenty of options to fly between GRU and NRT with other airlines, JAL remains the preferred option by the Japanese community.

agree but the problem is clearly one of costs... sending a 744 to GRU is a mighty expensive way to serve an average of less than 200 pax per flight.

Quoting panamair (Reply 16):
Outside of Hawaii, JL's U.S. operations have been so decimated over the years that there is hardly anything left to cut except for the extra flight(s) to JFK/GRU. Right now, JL only has one daily flight (292 seats on the 77W) in each of these markets:

NRT-LAX
NRT-SFO
NRT-ORD
NRT-JFK

note that DL has already added capacity in JFK and LAX as well as to GUM.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3829 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting carpethead (Reply 1):
With the announcement that JL is staying with OW, NRT-JFK-GRU will probably be history by end of summer

Not in fact, JAL said that it will continue flying the route.

Quoting ha763 (Reply 9):
I don't know about that. I recall a restriction in the US-Brazil bilateral that prevents a codeshare on U.S.-Brazil flights with a non-U.S. or Brazilian airline.

They could just reduce from a 744 to a 772.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
agree but the problem is clearly one of costs... sending a 744 to GRU is a mighty expensive way to serve an average of less than 200 pax per flight.

Even less than that. During 1st quarter last year loads were mostly below 55% in average.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
Even less than that. During 1st quarter last year loads were mostly below 55% in average.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
agree but the problem is clearly one of costs... sending a 744 to GRU is a mighty expensive way to serve an average of less than 200 pax per flight.

As Lipe said JL could send the B772 instead. One critical factor remains the schedule, JAL B747 is iddle in GRU for 14h (difference between arrival and departure time) - yes, I said 14h or more than half day! Now compare with KE 2h ground time and you can do the math how much would that translate in operational costs.

Rgs,


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 20):
As Lipe said JL could send the B772 instead. One critical factor remains the schedule, JAL B747 is iddle in GRU for 14h (difference between arrival and departure time) - yes, I said 14h or more than half day! Now compare with KE 2h ground time and you can do the math how much would that translate in operational costs.

If I'm not mistaken JL does this to reduce costs with crew. A 14 hour rest would be enough to get the same crew back in operation to fly the plane over to the US on it's return flight and get their longer rest overthere...

JL's B772's are quite high premium too, with 56 business class seats, and over 40 premium Y. Especially the C-class is comparable with JL's current B744's operating on the route. Though operational costs of the 2-engined B777's are significantly lower and make a sense indeed!



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3616 times:

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 21):
If I'm not mistaken JL does this to reduce costs with crew. A 14 hour rest would be enough to get the same crew back in operation to fly the plane over to the US on it's return flight and get their longer rest overthere...

Considering JL uses Brazilian crew (Japanese origin) for GRU-JFK this reasoning does not make much sense. And hotel stay in NY is much more costly than Sao Paulo (JL crew usually stays at a hotel in Manhattan East side, I will not disclose name, but rate is quite high).

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 21):
JL's B772's are quite high premium too, with 56 business class seats, and over 40 premium Y. Especially the C-class is comparable with JL's current B744's operating on the route. Though operational costs of the 2-engined B777's are significantly lower and make a sense indeed!

JL usually sells a lot of premium seats to GRU therefore the use of the B747 which in fact has F seats. But as you said, considering the lower operational cost, the B772 would make more sense especially if it keeping the 3 weekly frequencies.

Rgs,


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 22):
Considering JL uses Brazilian crew (Japanese origin) for GRU-JFK

So this crew flies GRU-JFK vv only? I'll check this soon and come back on this, I'm not sure about this rotation actually myself...   

Quoting hardiwv (Reply 22):
And hotel stay in NY is much more costly than Sao Paulo (JL crew usually stays at a hotel in Manhattan East side, I will not disclose name, but rate is quite high).

I think that already changed a while ago and crew doesn't stay in Manhattan anymore but nearby JFK. Also layover is only 1 night now, as cost reduction.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlinehardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 23):
So this crew flies GRU-JFK vv only?

Not sure on this. As you said, things may have changed. Still I personally think that a B747 parked for 14h would cost much more than crew stay.

Rgs,


25 viscount724 : I don't think that matters as much as you think. JL has interline ticketing agreements with virtually all major carriers worldwide and most European
26 carpethead : After a quick look over JL's summer schedule, it appears most of the 744 flying is gone, especially on intra-Asian runs. I probably missed a few fligh
27 LipeGIG : JAL would make more money with a high density B772 with more Y seats. Y ticket is not cheap and considering the size that economy takes compared to b
28 HeeseokKoo : And JL is using different configuration for each route which means they may need more spares, I guess. GMP will be changed to even denser Y config fr
29 ha763 : I can see JAL keeping 2 seating configurations for the 744, the K13 and K61. The K13 is a 3-class configuration with the old Skysleeper and Skyluxe s
30 airbuseric : JAL will need a lot of B744's this summer when it will operate a very intensive amount of charterflight between Japan and Europe. It never operated so
31 hardiwv : This because the route is quite high yielding with lots of F and C demand. Rgs,
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