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2008 BA 777 Heathrow Air Traffic Audio  
User currently offlineBigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 161 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6688 times:

The BA 777 that crashed on approach to Londons Heathrow. The audio recording from aAir Traffic has been made available.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8505174.stm

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA380Heavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 6569 times:

Wow, that is some recording.

With a busy airport like Heathrow the ATC had it all to do in a very short space of time - especially with so little time between the 'Mayday' call and the accident occuring.

You have to hand it not only to the BA crew who's actions undoubtedly saved the lives of those on board, but to the ATC who reacted with incredible speed and efficiency. It sounded like just two go arounds were ordered and then a switch to the alternate runway and they made it sound so easy.

I know this is what they are trained to do in an emergency but total respect to them.



Flown in:732,733,734,738,742,752,763,772,F27,DC9,MD-11,A300,A332,ATR72,DHC-6,Bell206,C172,Auster,PA-28
User currently offlineLHRlocal From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 6524 times:

Repost, this has been posted before with a moving map showing location of emergency vehicles etc not too long ago

User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7623 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6491 times:
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Quoting LHRlocal (Reply 2):
Repost, this has been posted before with a moving map showing location of emergency vehicles etc not too long ago

Yup, this has been 'available' for a long time.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5093 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6388 times:

Quoting LHRlocal (Reply 2):
Repost, this has been posted before with a moving map showing location of emergency vehicles etc not too long ago

That was a leaked copy of the ATC recording. This is the official release of it.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6242 times:

BBC's website is also featuring an interview with the captain. It looks like the accident hit him hard on an emotional standpoint and he's seen fighting back tears as he recalls the events.
Also "Sully" Sullemberger admitted he suffered from PTSD after the Hudson ditching, but this guy looks like he's still badly affected. I really feel for him and whish him all the best!



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineEBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6123 times:

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 5):
BBC's website is also featuring an interview with the captain. It looks like the accident hit him hard on an emotional standpoint and he's seen fighting back tears as he recalls the events.
Also "Sully" Sullemberger admitted he suffered from PTSD after the Hudson ditching, but this guy looks like he's still badly affected. I really feel for him and whish him all the best!



This is interesting. Also the off-duty captain who helped out during the SK751 crash in 1991 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines_Flight_751 ) ran into emotional troubles afterwords. Even if the official investigation concluded that his actions probably saved everyone on board, he stated in an interview that he "lost ten years of his life" because of the accident.



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User currently offlinePropmaniac From France, joined Jan 2010, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 6019 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

BBC today reports that ice in the fuel system as the probable cause of the accident??

Any comments - or is it more conterminated fuel ?

Thanks


User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5960 times:

Got to hand it to all involved, other than a fire truck entering the runway without permission (do they need it in a situation like this? I persumed they would always require it) then you cannot fault anyone involved.

Well in saying that... A little while ago I was reading another forum (forget which) but the BA Captain was actually posting to a thread about this. Apparently as a last ditch attempt to extend the glide he retracted the flaps, quite a few arm chair pilots, and maybe even a couple of real ones disagreed with this action. The last I read on it, someone said Boeing had looked into it and advised against flap retraction in such situations. Couple of pages later and understandably upset the BA Captain posted back saying he had personally spoken with Boeing, and no such  had been issues.

This is hearsay obviously, but it seemed the real deal. It was definitely the actual BA Captain involved in this incident posting. Im googling to find it now...

Edit to fix "junk characters" .... due to "junk" forum software.....

[Edited 2010-02-09 05:08:12]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5960 times:

The captain just gave an interview - which tells how he and his First Officer were able to save the lives of all on board - but only at the cost of his own confidence, and therefore his flying career:-

"He said: "When I realised we were coming in far too steeply with the loss of power and we were heading towards the buildings, I had to reduce the drag, and as we were going to crash on ground, I needed the [landing] gear.

"The gear was going to take most of the brunt of the crash so I daren't raise that up."

"His only other decision was to raise the flaps by one setting which would reduce the drag from the wings, but he said there was a risk with doing that as it could change the "stall margins" and the plane could have fallen out of the sky.

"But by reducing the drag, the rate of descent decreased and the plane was no longer at risk of hitting the buildings.

"He said when the plane hit the ground he reverted from being the captain and became just like all the other passengers.

"He coughed as he said: "We were now in an aircraft on the ground that was sliding uncontrollably and at that point I thought I was going to die, so I said goodbye to my wife."


All I can say is, how lucky all us passengers are to have pilots THAT good up front. Flying has always been dangerous - but the guys up front are usually just so plain good that most of us have always been able to take our personal safety for granted.

In the space of just 35 seconds, the captain was able to take the crucial decision - that raising the flaps a notch would reduce drag enough to clear the Tube Station - even though it would ALSO reduce lift. And the First Officer was good enough to be able to fly what can only be described as a 'controlled stall-in"........

In my view it is entirely due to those two guys that we're not talking about an horrific 'all-killed accident'.

No praise is too high for them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8505163.stm

[Edited 2010-02-09 05:11:07]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5379 times:

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 8):
other than a fire truck entering the runway without permission (do they need it in a situation like this? I persumed they would always require it)

I do wonder as well... However, ATC did issue clear statement on where the crash was, calling for equipment. I suppose that also cancels whatever clearances were given to enter the runway, other than rescue personnel.

Furthermore the guy from the truck did report entering the runway, probably before he really did so and got an "OK" from ATC. I suppose in such situations you can't really "hold short" and wait for clearance  

The best for me is "Shoots have been deployed"... Takes a notch off from such a tense moment as you realise at least someone is alive and well enough to open the doors.



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User currently offlineusafdo From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

Where are the airport video survilleance tapes of the event?

User currently offlinejayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5028 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJeEl0-1sjM


Guys here is the video of the accident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNJPR-z4SgM&feature=related

THIS IS THE ACTUAL VIDEO OF THE CRASH.YOU CAN SEE THE PLANE STALLING!



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

Thanks, jayeshrulz, interesting stuff.

Our evening World News had a good BBC item on the accident, with some 'reconstruction' footage of the approach and an interview with the Captain. Scroll down under 'Videos' at top right, to "Hero pilot relives terror':-

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4813 times:

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 8):
A little while ago I was reading another forum (forget which) but the BA Captain was actually posting to a thread about this

He's posted in the thread at PPRuNe.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 8):
Couple of pages later and understandably upset the BA Captain posted back saying he had personally spoken with Boeing, and no such  had been issues.

I'll need to go back and read it again but I think the report suggested that they would have touched down 50m earlier if they hadn't reduced the flaps. Either way, the critics have had several months to decide what they think they would have done. The crew of BA38 had a few seconds and it turned out alright.


User currently offlineevomutant From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 14):
'll need to go back and read it again but I think the report suggested that they would have touched down 50m earlier if they hadn't reduced the flaps. Either way, the critics have had several months to decide what they think they would have done. The crew of BA38 had a few seconds and it turned out alright.



"At 240 ft agl the commander retracted the flap from flap 30 to flap 25 which increased the distance to touchdown by about 50 metres; if left at flap 30 the touchdown would have still been within the airfield boundary."

That from the conclusions section of the report, so you are right. Earlier on, it mentions that those 50 meters prevented the aircraft striking the ILS array, which would have likely caused more severe structural damage to the aircraft.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4774 times:

Quoting evomutant (Reply 15):

Yes, that's it. Thanks for saving me some time.   


User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4694 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 13):

Our evening World News had a good BBC item on the accident, with some 'reconstruction' footage of the approach and an interview with the Captain. Scroll down under 'Videos' at top right, to "Hero pilot relives terror':-

Just been watching the interview of the captain, he seems a really good guy, very open about the "emotional" effects of it and how he actually felt. Strange though that he is still flying, but left BA for "personal reasons" - I know with BA flight 5390 that although the crew onboard return to flying, some of them chose never to step foot on another BAC 111 again. I wonder if its the same sorta thing, and if he is still flying the 777.....

[Edited 2010-02-10 06:08:17]

User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4692 times:

Quoting evomutant (Reply 15):
"At 240 ft agl the commander retracted the flap from flap 30 to flap 25 which increased the distance to touchdown by about 50 metres; if left at flap 30 the touchdown would have still been within the airfield boundary."

That from the conclusions section of the report, so you are right. Earlier on, it mentions that those 50 meters prevented the aircraft striking the ILS array, which would have likely caused more severe structural damage to the aircraft.

Forgot to say, thanks for this. I may go re-read that thread, to see what the doubters have to say now......LOL


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 17):
Strange though that he is still flying, but left BA for "personal reasons"

Mainly speculating on the basis of 'things I've heard,' Daysleeper - but we all know what 'crash investigations' are like; they spend most of their time, early on, trying to pin the cause down to 'pilot error,' which tends to suit both aircraft/engine manufacturers and airlines.

I do recall that there was a lot of speculation early on about whether the captain should have 'taken control' - even though anyone who has flown anything would know that, with only 35 seconds available, that would have been the worst possible thing; he couldn't possibly have oriented himself and 'got the feel' of an aeroplane that big and heavy in time to avoid disaster. And the report itself (from the passage that says, ".......if left at flap 30 the touchdown would have still been within the airfield boundary.....") suggests that, early on, there were probably posses of 'experts' saying that they'd proved (in their 'computer simulations') that if he'd left the flaps in the normal landing position the darned thing would have 'landed on the numbers' instead of stalling in, wrecking the aeroplane, and breaking that poor guy's leg.......

So my guess (only a guess) is that, at first anyway, he maybe had a long, hard, difficult time clearing his name and proving that he'd done the right thing - in fact, the only possible thing. And also, maybe, that he didn't always enjoy the 'full and unquestioning support' of his employer and/or his colleagues while he was doing it.

[Edited 2010-02-10 07:05:11]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4592 times:

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 18):
I may go re-read that thread, to see what the doubters have to say now

One in particular is still harping on. What a pity he wasn't in charge of the investigation.   


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4569 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
but we all know what 'crash investigations' are like; they spend most of their time, early on, trying to pin the cause down to 'pilot error,' which tends to suit both aircraft/engine manufacturers and airlines.

What utter nonsense. "Pilot error" is often found to be the cause or, at least, a contributing factor, along with a very detailed analysis of the evidence and facts. That's very different from the serious allegation you're making.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
So my guess (only a guess) is that, at first anyway, he maybe had a long, hard, difficult time clearing his name and proving that he'd done the right thing - in fact, the only possible thing. And also, maybe, that he didn't always enjoy the 'full and unquestioning support' of his employer and/or his colleagues while he was doing it.

He posted his reasons in the PPRuNe thread. Perhaps you should read it rather than guessing.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 21):
He posted his reasons in the PPRuNe thread.

Had a look at it, DavidL, but couldnt find any posts from him - most of them seemed to be from the nutcase you mentioned earlier. What name did he post under, and when did he make his posts?

Or, why don't you just tell us what he said? It would be quicker?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4430 times:

It wasn't all in one post and I haven't book-marked any of it but there's some on page 9 (it should be obvious who he is) here:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...a038-crew-get-ba-safety-medal.html

Maybe his relationship with his employer was a factor (I don't know) but, even if it was, it doesn't seem to have been "the reason" and a fuel/engine problem emerged very early on as a candidate for the cause so that shoots down the "pilot error conspiracy". But why guess?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
Or, why don't you just tell us what he said? It would be quicker?

And have you twist his words by twisting mine? I don't think so.

[Edited 2010-02-10 09:53:30]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13042 posts, RR: 78
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 4286 times:

NAV20, you may have touched on aspects of why this fine pilot decided to leave BA (as part of the round of voluntary redundancies), but it is most unlikely that the mechanics of the crash investigation played a part.

From my understanding, unlike the nonsense printed in tabloids as part of their usual smear BA stance - one in particular, Capt Burkhill chose to, as he says, personal reasons, it seems at that time .
No privacy breaches here, he's said as much as he wants to, that's it other than to say definitely that that he had nothing to be ashamed of.

Until the day he, if he does, choose to elaborate further, that's it as far as anyone should be concerned.


25 SEPilot : Sorry, I can't see any evidence of the plane stalling. The first thing a plane that stalls will do (especially if it's flying straight) is drop the n
26 Post contains links NAV20 : Fair enough, GDB - accept that the 'investigation' point is moot. About his leaving BA, I understand that a key issue was that the other two pilots w
27 Post contains links VV701 : Here is a link to the AAIB report on the accident: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/pu...s/formal_reports/1_2010_g_ymmm.cfm As you will see they con
28 Daysleeper : I was just thinking about this, and they knew pretty quick that this was more than likley the cause, I know there was another incident with an AA fli
29 jayeshrulz : I am not a pilot, but i think if you are flying with flap 30 approach,the approach speed will be around 155 kias.Just a example at the moment. If the
30 RJ111 : I'm not famillier with the 777 but the last stage of flaps often add a lot of drag for little lift increase (sometimes called drag flaps) - which is
31 David L : I haven't seen that. I have to agree that the use of "only" in that context is highly misleading. That's my uneducated understanding. The point is th
32 Post contains images NAV20 : Of course not, jayeshrulz. I'm no expert meself, most of the stuff I could afford to fly (like sailplanes) didn't even HAVE flaps! Thing is, though,
33 jayeshrulz : Thank you RJ111. Nav20, it couldn't be better explained!! Thanks!Welcome to my RU list!. I too feel the same thing.The Pilots did a marvelous job.They
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