Jackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 615 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3636 times:
When AA/BN/TW/CO etc had fairly substantial numbers of the long-rage 707-320B/C by the late 1960's, would these aircraft operate on inter-US domestic flights? BN, for example, flew their 707's on military charter flights, South American services and from around 1969 onwards to HNL, however would the aircraft operate parallel to the 707-227 on domestic flights? The situation with the other airlines was fairly similar, operating the shorter range 707-100's/720s as well as the long rage -320B/C
The only airline I'm very sure used the -320 on domestic services was TWA with the turbojet aircraft, and American Airlines used the 707-323B's on coast to coast services. Other than that, I have no idea.
dl_mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1591 posts, RR: 11 Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3565 times:
I think the -331B would sub for a -131B from time to time at TW. I flew on one from SEA to STL in 1980 (a -131B route) and have seen -331B's at CVG and CMH (fan and non fan).
R I P 474218 / GLHCARL - Riding up to Heaven on an L-1011
Type-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 3664 posts, RR: 23 Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3459 times:
NW used the 707-320 ORD-MSP-SEA, as well as MSP-ORD-MIA services.
I also flew on an AA 707 ORD-EWR in 1970 as well.
[Edited 2010-02-09 08:16:18]
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
CV990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 198 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3313 times:
I used to work for TWA and I know that a few US flights were operated with 331B's flt TW 755 ex LHR to PHL used to continue on to PIT and LAX and flt TW15 used to fly BOS SFO this was an aircrfat which came in from Europe. Most of the flights which went thru JFK changed from a 331B to a 131B at JFK even though they kept the same intl flt number.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2098 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3217 times:
Quoting Jackbr (Thread starter): BN, for example, flew their 707's on military charter flights, South American services and from around 1969 onwards to HNL
Braniff's newly delivered 707-320C's were first used on the military charter flights to Saigon on June 2, 1966. From what I can tell the first BN 320's did not enter regular passenger service, but were first used on the MAC charters, flying from Kelly AFB Texas to Travis AFB Calif, to Hickam AFB HNL, to Anderson AFB Guam, to Clark AFB Philippines, to Saigon. The initial 320C's were configured 24 F and 131 Coach.
The 707-227's entered BN service December 1959, configured 50 First and 56 Coach.
The 720-027's entered BN service February 1961, also configured with 106 seats.
AzoresLover From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 724 posts, RR: 9 Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3193 times:
I'm not sure of the model, but my first jet flight was a TWA 707 from CMH-PIT, returning that evening on a TWA 727.
I flew TWA routings of CMH-JFK, LAX-CMH, LAX-ORD-CMH, PIT-CMH-LAX. In fact, it was that LAX-ORD-CMH flight that mistakenly landed at Ohio State University's Don Scott Field one night. If anyone wants to read my personal account of that, just email me through my contact and I'll email it to you as an attachment. I also flew a TWA 707 JFK-SNN (Shannon, Ireland.) But returned on a Pan Am 707.
Those who want to do something will find a way; those who don't will find an excuse.
N901WA From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 286 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3179 times:
If I remember correctly. Western flew a 320c from MSP to LAX and I think SFO. I think it was connecting to HNL. I know I rode a Fish Hauler (707-347C) from ANC to LAX, but I think that was in the 70's.
Jackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 615 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3105 times:
Quoting CitationJet (Reply 4): Braniff's newly delivered 707-320C's were first used on the military charter flights to Saigon on June 2, 1966. From what I can tell the first BN 320's did not enter regular passenger service, but were first used on the MAC charters, flying from Kelly AFB Texas to Travis AFB Calif, to Hickam AFB HNL, to Anderson AFB Guam, to Clark AFB Philippines, to Saigon. The initial 320C's were configured 24 F and 131 Coach.
The -320C's were ordered originally for the MAC flights, however I am near certain from others accounts that some were also used on passenger services...could be wrong though
By 1969, they were definitely operating passenger flights to HNL
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6231 posts, RR: 8 Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3099 times:
Went thru the 15 Apr 1969 OAG-- didn't find any B3F flights on AA/WA/TW. Lots of B7F of course, but that's supposed to mean -120B.
I checked DAL/LAX/SFO/OAK/PHX/LAS/MEX/SAN/TUS to ORD
LAX/SFO to BOS
DAL/LAS/PHX/LAX/SFO/OAK/SAN/DAL/STL to NY
LAX/SFO to PHL/DTW/CLE/IAD/BAL/STL
Thought there might be some international tag-ons WAS/PHL to JFK, but none shown.
NW did have B3F flights, and AA/TW had lots of them in later years.
crownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1494 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3039 times:
To answer your question, a simple "yes" is the case. All airlines with long range 707's frequently used their 707's domestically including American, Northwest, TWA, Pan Am, etc...I can easily remember TWA and Pan Am operating 707's between PHL-JFK. American operating 707's PHL-IAD and NWA operating PHL-MSP/ORD even well into the 1970's. One has to remember that with fuel prices in the 1960's at under 20 Cents/Gal, operating costs of these aircraft vs. say a 727 was not that significant.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2098 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3038 times:
Quoting Jackbr (Reply 7): The -320C's were ordered originally for the MAC flights, however I am near certain from others accounts that some were also used on passenger services...could be wrong though
I agree that they were used on passenger services shortly after they were introduced. However the first 320C's delivered were used in MAC service, according to the Braniff B-Liner company newspaper dated June 1966. I have access to most of the Braniff B-Liners from 1942 to 1982. I was lucky to have flown on Braniff's 720-027, 707-227, and 707-320C aircraft as a young boy.
In about 1969 I flew the 320 from DAL (Love Field) to HNL, and eventually the 747-100 from DAL to HNL, before DFW was built.
milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1636 posts, RR: 7 Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3016 times:
NW flew 707-351B/C's all over their domestic system
Jun 15 1968
NW Flights with B3F equipment
2 SEA JFK
3 IAD CLE ORD ANC -- Flight 6 was reverse
5 Y class only JFK PHL DTW MSP SEA 10 was reverse - This was a combi aircraft, half cargo half Y class
7 JFK SEA
14 HNL ITO SEA ORD
16 HNL SEA ORD CLE PHL -- flight operated via ITO two days a week
17 JFK PHL CLE ORD SEA HNL -- flight operated via ITO two days a week
29 EWR MKE MSP SEA ANC
42 HNL PDX SEA GEG ORD
55 PHL CLE ORD SEA
77 IAD DTW MSP PDX SEA MSP
80 SEA GEG MSP DTW IAD
216 ANC SEA GEG MSP JFK
230 MSP JFK
415 ORD MSP
398 MSP MKE IAD
There are more, but as I said above, they operated all over the system
WA - Didn't receive their 707-347C's until later but I flew on them up and down the West Coast LAX-SEA, LAX-PDX, SFO - SEA etc.
AA and TW - In the 70's, I flew on many 331B's and 323B's on domestic flights. The 1968 OAG does not seem to differentiate on TW flights between the 131B's and the 331B's, but does differentiate the flights flown with non fan 131's and 331's.
Pan Am, which only had domestic routes between the west coast and Hawaii, and the Seattle and Fairbanks, did not differentiate between their various types of 707's and 720's, listing them all as 707's. When they operated DC-8's as well, they just listed the flights as "JETS".
There are lots more. At the time, AA was also operating CV-990's, 720-023B's, and BAC-111's, as well as 707-123B's, 727-23's, 727-223's, and L-188A's.
Just a side note
AA 11 BOS LAX 707-123B
AA 77 IAD LAX 707-123B
These same flight numbers were still in use up through September 11, 2001, when they were operated by 767-223 and 757-223 aircraft.
Flight 1, that crashed on or March 1, 1962 and was the operated then with a 707-123B, N7506A. This flight was the subject of a Mad Men episode. Another interesting but creeping thing about this flight. In the Mad Men episode, Pete lost his dad on this flight. In real life, a man who lost both parents on Flight 1, in 1962, lost his brother on AA 191 at ORD, 17 years later.
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6231 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2888 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 8): Went thru the 15 Apr 1969 OAG-- didn't find any B3F flights on AA/WA/TW. Lots of B7F of course, but that's supposed to mean -120B.
AA had 30+ 707-323Cs by then-- no idea how many of them were all-cargo, but their entire route system was in the 48 states except for ACA, MEX and YYZ. So apparently they just didn't bother to show their B3F schedules as such. "B3F" was supposed to mean 707-320B/C, but "B7F" didn't have to mean 707-120B-- could mean any fanjet 707.
So no way to tell from the OAG which AA flights were -323C, or from the AA timetable either. Airpport Activity Stats might help.
SWABrian From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 294 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2841 times:
In the late 1960s, BN flew a PA 707-300 from DAL to ORD (it might have been JFK, but I think it was ORD) as part of an interchange flight on to LHR,
viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 18463 posts, RR: 17 Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2706 times:
Quoting crownvic (Reply 9): I can easily remember TWA and Pan Am operating 707's between PHL-JFK.
Except Pan Am couldn't carry local traffic PHL-JFK, or on any other domestic routes in those years except to Alaska, Hawaii and Puerto Rico.
Quoting milesrich (Reply 11): Pan Am, which only had domestic routes between the west coast and Hawaii, and the Seattle and Fairbanks, did not differentiate between their various types of 707's and 720's, listing them all as 707's.
Pan Am also used 707s between SEA and Ketchikan and Juneau for some years, but eventually dropped those routes leaving only SEA-FAI. I think the 720Bs were only used on Caribbean and Latin America routes. The 707s that operated to Alaska were normally the same aircraft that operated SEA-HNL-SEA (some days with a stop at PDX).
Quoting Jackbr (Reply 14): Quite off topic, but did AA have 707-323B/C's in the "current" scheme by 1969?
Yes, one example of a -323B at JFK below. Photo dated December 1, 1969.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2098 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2675 times:
Quoting Jackbr (Thread starter): The only airline I'm very sure used the -320 on domestic services was TWA with the turbojet aircraft,
My TWA July 1, 1964 schedule shows four types of Boeing jets: Boeing Starstream, Boeing Intercontinental Starstream, Boeing 707-131, and Boeing 707-331. The -331 operated the following flights
Flight 1 JFK > LAX - domestic flight number
Flight 83 JFK > PIT > ORD > MKC - domestic flight number
Flight 800 MKC > ORD > JFK - continued on to Europe
Flight 740 LAX > JFK - continued on to Europe
All other domestic 707 flights were shown as 707-131.
Quoting SWABrian (Reply 13): In the late 1960s, BN flew a PA 707-300 from DAL to ORD (it might have been JFK, but I think it was ORD) as part of an interchange flight on to LHR,
Braniff's schedules from 1963 thru 1969 show the PanAm/Braniff interchange from Houston > Dallas > Chicago > London > Frankfurt. Flights 58 and 59 shown as 707 in the schedule.
The 1966 schedule shows the fare Dallas to London $565 Coach and $905 First Class roundtrip.
milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1636 posts, RR: 7 Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2532 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 12): AA had 30+ 707-323Cs by then-- no idea how many of them were all-cargo, but their entire route system was in the 48 states except for ACA, MEX and YYZ. So apparently they just didn't bother to show their B3F schedules as such. "B3F" was supposed to mean 707-320B/C, but "B7F" didn't have to mean 707-120B-- could mean any fanjet 707.
So no way to tell from the OAG which AA flights were -323C, or from the AA timetable either. Airpport Activity Stats might help.
What other type of 707 did American operate other than 707-323B/C and 707-123B's, after the original water wagon and non fan JT-3C powered 720-023's were re-engined to JT-3D's and called Astrojets rather than Jet Flagships? The answer is NONE. OAG used B7F to designate any type of fan jet 707, and in the TWA listings, every fan powered 707 whether 131B or 331B/C was listed as a B7F, but in AA's listings, they differentiated them. Remember, in American's later schedules and on the aircraft themselves, 720-023B's were labeled as 707 Astrojets. In the 70's, American continued this policy, and I can assure you from personal experience, that if the flight was scheduled as a B3F, then a 707-320B/C operated it, and if it was scheduled as a B7F, then a 707-123B operated the flight, unless of course there was an equipment substitution. Some airlines like PA just used 707 in the OAG which could mean any type of 707, no matter intercontinental or domestic, no matter how powered, JT-3C, JT-3D, JT-4. Some airlines like Varig, El Al, British Airways, and Lufthansa originally ordered RR Conway powered -400 707's but later ordered PW JT-3D -300B/C aircraft and some of these carriers also did not designate but just used 707 in the OAG. AA did not use a generic designator.
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6231 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2460 times:
isitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 28 Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2436 times:
MILESRICH...an update on the NW 707-320 fleet.
N351US thru N355US were C models and N356US thru N386US were B models.
I THINK this is correct.
safe
PS greetings from FLA until Monday........
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 18463 posts, RR: 17 Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2375 times:
Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 20): N351US thru N355US were C models and N356US thru N386US were B models.
I THINK this is correct.
It's the other way around. The first 5 NW 707s were unusual. Although officially -320Bs, they had a main deck cargo door but lacked the heavier floor and other structural changes of the full -320C. They were basically a -320B with a cargo door. I believe they were the only 5 707s built in that configuration. If memory correct they also lacked the additional emergency exit just behind the wing found on the real -320C.
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6231 posts, RR: 8 Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2295 times:
Quoting CitationJet (Reply 16): All other domestic 707 flights were shown as 707-131.
You must mean 707-131 or 707-131B? The 6/64 timetable shows numerous domestic Starstream flights, as you'd expect.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2098 posts, RR: 4 Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2274 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 22): You must mean 707-131 or 707-131B?
The TWA schedule only shows 707-131. It doesn't list 707-131B.
I am not sure what type of aircraft "Boeing Intercontinental Starstream" or "Boeing Starstream" refers to in the TWA schedule.
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6231 posts, RR: 8 Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2188 times:
Seems a good bet Starstream was their term for fanjet? (Tho not sure they called the 720Bs that.)
25 Viscount724: TWA called their 4 leased 720Bs "Boeing Superjet". It was painted on the rear fuselage. Those aircraft were only operated by TW for one year in 1961-
26 Jackbr: Were they delievered with NWA interiors, or did they start off with the same cabin as the TWA 707's, obviously less a few rows?
27 Viscount724: Not sure about the interiors. They were rolled out of the factory at Renton in TWA livery.
28 JetJeanes: AA had a sced pax service from Mem to Nyc back in the 60,s, the last aa 707 i saw was a 707 freighter in the mid 70,s in mem
29 milesrich: If that is the case, RH Donnelly may have just made a printing error, which occasionally happened. My June 15, 1968 OAG has three airports listed for
30 CV990Coronado: I have a TWA staff timetable from July 1972 it does differentiate between the 707-131B and the 707-331B but not between the 707-131 & the 707 131B
32 Viscount724: Fleet lists show TW 707-131s retired in 1971 except for a couple in 1970. I wonder why they didn't re-engine their turbojet -131s to -131Bs in the ea
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