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Thai Goes Shopping: $1.1b For 15 Widebodies  
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12476 posts, RR: 37
Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18610 times:

According to the attached article, TG is looking to buy 15 new aircraft, of which eight will be 350 seaters and 7, 300 seaters. It has budgeted c.$1.1bm which at $137m, seems a tad optimistic (given that a most widebodies of that size are close to $200m); however, it's probably doable, with some negotiation nous ...

I'm just wondering what they'll be looking for; the 300 seat the aircraft seem to be for regional flights, so I guess the A330 is pretty much a shoe-in for the 300 seat requirement and $137m per acft is probably not unreasonable. The 350 seat requirement is for long haulers, but the list price for the 77W (and that must be seen as the most likely, given that the desired timeframe is too early for the A350?) is around $200-250m, which would seem to take it outside TG's budget.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...r-plan-to-acquire-15-aircraft.html

Incidentally, anyone know when those three as-yet-undelivered new A330s (3 parked at Lourdes still?) will be entering service?

Also, presumably it has completely dropped its narrowbody reqirement, which once included an order (or MOU) for A321s?

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3592 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18481 times:

If I am not mistaken, much of this lease financing might be for aircraft that TG already has on order (including the A380s).

The wording is a bit ambigious in the news reports. This could be the financing those undelivered A330s were waiting for.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12567 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17991 times:
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Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
The wording is a bit ambigious in the news reports. This could be the financing those undelivered A330s were waiting for.

Not sure how you conclude that. From the article:

Thai Airways International plans to acquire 15 aircraft.

Thai has yet to decide on the aircraft types, says an airline spokeswoman.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3592 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17764 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
Not sure how you conclude that. From the article:

Thai Airways International plans to acquire 15 aircraft.

Thai has yet to decide on the aircraft types, says an airline spokeswoman.

Mea Culpa

The "plans to aquire" I had read in both articles.

I had been reading a release from ATWonline that was less specific and more poorly worded.

I had missed the spokesman's quoted line on the flightglobal article. Somehow I had glossed over it.


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10889 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
but the list price for the 77W (and that must be seen as the most likely, given that the desired timeframe is too early for the A350?) is around $200-250m, which would seem to take it outside TG's budget.

...who pays list price? No one... So if you play with your price numbers a little bit on the 330s and the 77Ws you may probably come up with something that is within their budget.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12476 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9959 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
Incidentally, anyone know when those three as-yet-undelivered new A330s (3 parked at Lourdes still?) will be entering service?
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
This could be the financing those undelivered A330s were waiting for.

It seems to be seat-related - the same company which provides seats for the SQ A380s (also delayed) is at fault and is apparently being investigated by the Japanese authorities. The acft should have been in service by now; they could get seats from another company, but that would apparently take SIX months!

It seems odd that if that were the sole issue, TG didn't say it earlier; the lack of public comment caused rumours which were potentially damaging to the aircraft (e.g. that they could not afford them.)


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9663 times:

I would suggest B 777-300ERs for the 350 seater category and A 333s for the 300 seater category if its meant for regional flights.

If the 300 seater need is referring to long haul flights then the B 772ER is the best aircraft suited for them.

I hope that these new planes do not get a first class cabin as there is no need for it.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9607 times:
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CX pays $93 million for their A330-300s and $140 million for their 777-300ERs, so that sounds doable for TG with their planned expenditures.

User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9264 times:

A346s not taken up by IB might be a cheap alternative, but who knows...


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineMAN2SIN2BKK From Thailand, joined Feb 2009, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8945 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
This could be the financing those undelivered A330s were waiting for.

Interesting article in the Bangkok Post about these 5 A330s this morning

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/...2694/thai-ends-seat-maker-contract

extract 1: Thai Airways International (THAI) has served notice it will terminate its $3.4-million contract with the Japanese aircraft seatmaker Koito Industries for its repeated failures to supply seats to its five new Airbus A330-300 jetliners.

extract 2: Singapore Airlines, Continental Airlines and All Nippon Airways have also been forced to delay new planes because of late seats from Koito.

The Japanese supplier said last week the axle in a new seat design failed a safety test. Other seats were covered in uncertified materials. Seat fabrics are important in slowing the spread of aircraft fires.


User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

If they go with the 77W, add another type of engine to the diverse fleet of TG.
At least it never gets boring.
I am not sure what kind of configuration TG has on its 744s, but could a 350-seater mean a low-density configuration 748 for long-haul ops.
The oldest 744s are getting up there in age.


User currently offlinejayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8692 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
CX pays $93 million for their A330-300s and $140 million for their 777-300ERs, so that sounds doable for TG with their planned expenditures.

How is that?

I Assume they just get the aircrafts in a "green condition" and do all the interior and _______? from third party?

But a 77W at 140 and A333 AT 93 MILLION :O? Wow, these people know how to bargain man!



Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8342 times:
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Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 11):
I Assume they just get the aircrafts in a "green condition" and do all the interior and _______? from third party?

No, that is the final contract price including engines, avionics and interior fittings secured from third-party suppliers. The cost of the actual "green" airframe (sans engines) is about $45 million for the A330-300 and $55 million for the 777-300ER.

Most widebody orders go out at around 55-60% of the list price quoted on the company's websites. So the $272 million average list price Boeing gives on their website translates into a price closer to $160 million when the deal is finally signed. And when you order scores of planes, like CX or EK, that price is even lower.

But Boeing and Airbus still make a nice profit, so...  


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8165 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
So the $272 million average list price Boeing gives on their website translates into a price closer to $160 million when the deal is finally signed.

so then whats the point of Airbus and Boeing listing their official prices so high when everyone knows you can get 40% discount easily???


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8067 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 13):
so then whats the point of Airbus and Boeing listing their official prices so high when everyone knows you can get 40% discount easily???

It's one way to make customers happy about handing over $100+ million for an airplane. Tell them they got a big discount.

Clothing retailing (and furniture) works on the exact same principle. They tell you an $85 shirt is on sale for $45. Do you know it is true? Nope, but it makes you happy with the transaction. If they had told you it was only worth $45, the shirt seems less valuable and you would probably not be as enthusiastic about the deal.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7977 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
A346s not taken up by IB might be a cheap alternative, but who knows...
IB is taking those, they need them after the closure of Air Comet.

Quoting MAN2SIN2BKK (Reply 9):
has served notice it will terminate its $3.4-million contract with the Japanese aircraft seatmaker Koito Industries for its repeated failures to supply seats to its five new Airbus A330-300 jetliners.

So will someone else supply the seats for these aircraft? That will make the delay even longer.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
It's one way to make customers happy about handing over $100+ million for an airplane. Tell them they got a big discount.

As I understand, the discount also depends on the size of the order amongst others. So CX may get a bigger discount then British Midland for example.

[Edited 2010-02-11 08:25:24]

[Edited 2010-02-11 08:25:49]


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineLawair From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7970 times:

According to the news link http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010...11/business/business_30122298.php, TG will have six aircraft types when its fleet renewal program is complete: Airbus A380, Boeing 747-400, Boeing 777, Boeing 787, Airbus A350 and Airbus A330-300. A fleet of 101 aircraft is expected by 2024.

I would take this information with a grain of salt though, not only because TG's plans seem to change frequently, but because this newspaper often has erroneous information with regard to airline industry news.

If it's true, though, then it looks like the A340s, 737s, and A300s will entirely leave the fleet by 2024. I haven't read anything about the A340s or 737s leaving the fleet, but I do know that as soon as the 5 new A330 aircraft get economy class seating and enter service, 5 A300s will be retired. TG's fleet may end up looking a lot like SQ's when all is said and done.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 15):
As I understand, the discount also depends on the size of the order amongst others. So CX may get a bigger discount then British Midland for example.

Yes, for a fleet order, a significant amount of the work only has to be done once (design, engineering, paint design, books). Then they crank out 4, or 14, or 64 identical examples. It is true that volume discounts make sense in a lot of cases (or if you like, a surcharge is necessary on small orders). So that's a good reason for some price variability.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7894 times:

Quoting Lawair (Reply 16):
If it's true, though, then it looks like the A340s, 737s, and A300s will entirely leave the fleet by 2024. I haven't read anything about the A340s or 737s leaving the fleet,

And the 744's are still in the fleet. That seems a bit odd to me. They do have some relatively new 744's in their fleet, but the a346 is cheaper to operate (according to SA anyway).



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinecobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1014 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7860 times:

Canada A340-50 were sold for 50 million a piece. So 15 planes for 1.1 billion is quite a deal

User currently offlineNomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7825 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 13):
So then whats the point of Airbus and Boeing listing their official prices so high when everyone knows you can get 40% discount easily??

When there's serious competition for available slots it's a lot easier for Boeing to ask closer to the list price than it would be for them to simply raise it.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12476 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7774 times:

Quoting Lawair (Reply 16):
TG will have six aircraft types when its fleet renewal program is complete: Airbus A380, Boeing 747-400, Boeing 777, Boeing 787, Airbus A350 and Airbus A330-300. A fleet of 101 aircraft is expected by 2024.

Maybe I missed it, but I can't recall TG having ordered either the 787 or the A350?


User currently offlineLawair From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7665 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 21):
Maybe I missed it, but I can't recall TG having ordered either the 787 or the A350?

They haven't. I really think the article is just reflecting what the TG board is hoping in the long term, for planning purposes. An order for either has been discussed I think but never seriously put on paper (though I could be wrong about that).


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7602 times:

Quoting cobra27 (Reply 19):
Canada A340-50 were sold for 50 million a piece. So 15 planes for 1.1 billion is quite a deal

I heard they were just shy of $90m each.


User currently offlinecobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1014 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7279 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 23):
I heard they were just shy of $90m each.

You may be right


25 Aesma : I might be wrong but 1100/15 = 73,33 millions in my book. And that seems very optimistic for such planes !
26 NZ107 : I thought they weren't too happy with the performance of the A346, just like other carriers except IB? It shouldn't make a difference if they decide
27 Kappel : As mentioned in the article, seven aircraft will be leased. So that changes the equation quite a bit. IIRC they made a comment about the a345, not th
28 kaitak : Do you know what kind of impact that would have on the capital outlay for the aircraft? For example, based on an acft of list price $100m?
29 Kappel : No idea. It's also not clear if they are including the capital needed for the entire leasing term is included in this 1,1 billion.
30 trex8 : the A330s are for replacing the A343s. fuel burn on a A346 is 20% less than a 744 so it ought to b cheaper to run!
31 cobra27 : If you pack A346 full of pax and aroudn 300 pax in 747. Even 777 uses only 10-15 less, and it is itself 10% more efficient than A346. A340 is guzzler
32 trex8 : the FI article says these will be leases so a million $/year or less for each aircraft for 10 years would be doable with the budget announced
33 RJ111 : 20% sounds a bit much. The A346 has roughly double the cargo space though, which is where it really has an advantage over the 744. The A346 is a good
34 trex8 : Zeke posted what is presumably the CX fuel burn figures their pilots use for a calculations a while back 772/A343 6900kg/hr A333 6000 A346 8900 77W 8
35 RJ111 : Interesting, ta. The A333 is nearly half the 744!
36 Post contains images MarcW10 : Quoting from the OP link. "It has also set a budget of 922 million baht for two engines for aircraft operating on regional routes, and a budget of 3.3
37 Aesma : I suppose that for long haul you change the engine to service it, so the plane can still fly while you do the maintenance. Something like that.
38 Post contains images jayeshrulz : Why were they aiming to still shop in the 742-743 category? I mean there are more efficient planes than 742/743 and A346 like 77W and A333. Is it due
39 trex8 : yes, 6
40 Kappel : Well, the a333 is smaller and has a lot less range. So that would leave the 77W and the a346. In the case of LH, the a346 made more sense as they alr
41 RJ111 : Why the rolly eyes?
42 behramjee : For the 350 seater aircraft order, TG should be ordering the Boeing 777-300ER only because it is the ideal aircraft to use on long haul flights to Eur
43 Zeke : I do not think that is useful comparison in this case, TG would not be looking at the same number of frames. Very true. That is the point, 40% is not
44 trex8 : TG ordered their A346 in 2001, AF had already ordered the 77W a year earlier if the 77W burns 10% less fuel and fuel is what 30-40% of direct operati
45 CRJ 900 : Incorrect, TG also has 773.
46 Stitch : Boeing might be more willing to deal since they are preparing to slow 777 production so any new orders would be helpful.
47 behramjee : The problem with the A 346s for TG is that the configuration is screwed up...267 seats only which is very small for that sized airplane!
48 behramjee : That I know...I was referring to long haul operated jets which the B 773 doesn't do for TG except to Australia! Though according to their Summer 2010
49 CRJ 900 : Ok, sorry, it just came across in your post that they only had the 772. I believe ATH has been operated by the 773 on and off for a while now.
50 6thfreedom : I think we have discussed this previously, but I couldn't agree more. If VS can operate a 3 class config with 308 seats on an A346, i'm sure TG can d
51 Post contains images astuteman : There's absolutely no way a 773ER "only" uses 10%-15% less fuel than a 744 The range/payload charts wouyld suggest that the 37% or so identified by Z
52 Kappel : But IIRC the a346 was available earlier, cheaper than the 77W and the 77W had not proven itself yet. And at that time, the price of oil was IIRC less
53 Post contains images astuteman : The difference is almost certainly single digit. The fuel burn delta is probably one of the biggest, at around 9% or so. Nav and landing fees will on
54 Post contains images Stitch : If by advantage you mean it costs less to lease and devalues more (so it's cheaper to buy second-hand), then that would be . Based on industry observ
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