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Icelandair Chooses Between A320 Or B738!  
User currently offlinegolli From Iceland, joined May 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 12126 times:

And now it's out FI in talks with both A&B, about purchasing 5 frames, either A320 or B738.
No surprise really, they started talks with Airbus last summer. And tradition rules that they should let Boeing have a chance at this also.

Link in Icelandic only:
http://www.visir.is/article/20100210/FRETTIR01/462282629


They need smaller frames than the 757, for European legs to TRD - BGO - SVG - GOT - GLA - BRU

"The 757 would still be the flagship", they say.


Speculation on:
I wonder if the Icelandic government is softening the EU, by turning to Airbus ??
And secondly, how do the experts here feel about the future of the 787 in the FI fleet??


Personally I think that the A320 suits FI better.
And what is the rate of 787 slots, these days??


Golli


Vinnie Colaiuta rocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11865 times:

Quoting golli (Thread starter):
And tradition rules that they should let Boeing have a chance at this also.

It probably has more to do with wanting to get the best deal on whichever airframe they choose.

Quoting golli (Thread starter):
I wonder if the Icelandic government is softening the EU, by turning to Airbus ??

I don't know much about the political situation there, but I would tend to doubt that aircraft orders would be a major bargaining chip in this case but I could be wrong.

Quoting golli (Thread starter):
Personally I think that the A320 suits FI better.

Why? The two airframes are practically a toss up performance wise, and there is no big commonality advantage with either choice. But, depending on the timeframe, I can see that the prospect of a re-engined A320 may be very attractive to them. But, if they would wish to fly them to North America at some point, ETOPS may be a consideration as well.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11816 times:

Quoting golli (Thread starter):
They need smaller frames than the 757, for European legs to TRD - BGO - SVG - GOT - GLA - BRU

I was wondering if or when they'd purchase a smaller aircraft for some of their routes.

Quoting golli (Thread starter):
And secondly, how do the experts here feel about the future of the 787 in the FI fleet??

I doubt it. The 787 is a lot bigger plane than the 787, especially in FI's configuration. Who know though. What routes do they have that warrant the 787's range and capacity?

Quoting golli (Thread starter):
Personally I think that the A320 suits FI better.

I don't think so. I think the 738 would work just as well, and since they already operate a fleet of Boeings, why not stick to the 738.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12562 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11724 times:

I tend to favour the 738, because of FI's long history with Boeing, but also if they want to cancel their 787 orders, taking 738s would probably part of it.

I'd be sorry if they cancelled the 787s, because I was looking forward to the possibility of combining the 753 and the 787 on a flight to the US, via KEF, sometime ...

 


User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11426 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
I tend to favour the 738, because of FI's long history with Boeing, but also if they want to cancel their 787 orders, taking 738s would probably part of it.

The A320 is the better choice in my opinion. They can carry more cargo, are more comfortable and the A319-100LR could fly to the United States.

Plus A320 aircraft will look great in Icelandair colors.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1700355/A320/image-5.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1700355/A320/image-3.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1700355/A320/image-4.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1700355/A320/image-1.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1700355/A320/image-2.jpg

If they order the A320 they might want to consider the A319 in addition to the A320. The A319 is a bit smaller than the B737-700 and the A320 is a bit smaller than the B 737-800. If they want an aircraft that is rather smaller than the B757 then the B738 is closer to the B757 than the A320.

I find that the A320 feels more modern than the B737.

[Edited 2010-02-10 13:20:57]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11024 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
but also if they want to cancel their 787 orders, taking 738s would probably part of it.

Or as compensation for delays.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 4):
They can carry more cargo

They can take containers, but many airlines do not opt to do so. If they operate all of their 757s bulk loaded I'm not sure that they would find it attractive to have containers on their A32x fleet (and buy corresponding GSE) for a 5 plane fleet.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 4):
A319-100LR could fly to the United States.

Actually a standard A319 (or 737-700/800) could reach as far south on the East Coast as IAD and as far west as DTW. The A319LR (or 737-700ER) would probably not be attractive, since those tanks take up a lot of room and add weight. I don't know for sure if ETOPS could ever be a factor, but if it is that would probably favor the 737.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10961 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 2):
I doubt it. The 787 is a lot bigger plane than the 787, especially in FI's configuration. Who know though. What routes do they have that warrant the 787's range and capacity?


   Oops I had forgotten that FI ordered the 787...sorry. I'm unsure about their deliveries, but seeing as though they've not mentioned anything about cancellations, we may in fact see the 787 flying in and out of Iceland. As for the order of single aisle...I think it obviously come down to pricing, but I see no benefit outside of pricing to go Airbus. They fly all Boeing, and have all Boeing on order.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10858 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 6):
Oops I had forgotten that FI ordered the 787...sorry. I'm unsure about their deliveries, but seeing as though they've not mentioned anything about cancellations, we may in fact see the 787 flying in and out of Iceland. As for the order of single aisle...I think it obviously come down to pricing, but I see no benefit outside of pricing to go Airbus. They fly all Boeing, and have all Boeing on order.

Yeah but they don't fly the B737 currently. Are there any significant savings from having operating the B757 if one is to buy the B737. Plus Airbus is famous for "accommodating" airlines so that it isn't more expensive to choose the A320.


User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5746 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

Depends if they will really stick to Europe only with the new frames.

The 738 has a slight but noticeable payload range advantage over the A320 (although Airbus's MTOW increase will help with that). If they want to use these frames for any East Coast US routes the 738 will be better.

If not, it will come down strictly to pricing. Airbus, as usual, probably has the upper hand in a battle of pricing for a non-US carrier.


User currently offlinegolli From Iceland, joined May 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10692 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):

I don't know much about the political situation there, but I would tend to doubt that aircraft orders would be a major bargaining chip in this case but I could be wrong.

Our current government is hell-bent on taking us into the EU. So I could see some twisted soap opera in the making here, something that Iceland Express would not be happy about. Could be that I am only paranoid.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Quoting golli (Thread starter):
Personally I think that the A320 suits FI better.

Why? The two airframes are practically a toss up performance wise, and there is no big commonality advantage with either choice. But, depending on the time frame, I can see that the prospect of a re-engined A320 may be very attractive to them. But, if they would wish to fly them to North America at some point, ETOPS may be a consideration as well.

You are right that the 738 is a tad better now, but I was thinking more about what the A320 will become, around the time FI could receive some new builds. If everything Airbus are planning, pans out, the A320 & A321 will become one h#ll of a plane in 2015/16. And FI could reach every current destination, except SEA.
But, as the article say's, FI are open for leasing too. So we could be see'ing these bird's sooner.
How long, exactly, is the backlog for either type, for a newcomer?? My memory say's 4 years, roughly.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 4):

The A320 is the better choice in my opinion. They can carry more cargo, are more comfortable and the A319-100LR could fly to the United States.

Plus A320 aircraft will look great in Icelandair colors.

I agree about the comfort & cargo factor. However I think the A319 is to small and if they go down to the same seat-segment as Iceland Express (on European routes), FI would be at great disadvantage, because of higher cost base. I do not think that FI would use any Airbuses on North-American routes, in the near future.

BTW, Thanks for these great pictures!!!



Golli



Vinnie Colaiuta rocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5746 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10628 times:

Quoting golli (Reply 9):
You are right that the 738 is a tad better now, but I was thinking more about what the A320 will become, around the time FI could receive some new builds. If everything Airbus are planning, pans out, the A320 & A321 will become one h#ll of a plane in 2015/16.

Boeing may be planning improvements for a similar timeframe. Neither manufacturer is being very revealing about their plans for obvious reasons.

Quoting golli (Reply 9):
How long, exactly, is the backlog for either type, for a newcomer?? My memory say's 4 years, roughly.

In this environment, a customer can get frames much more quickly than that if desired, provided the customer has solid financing.


User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10610 times:

Does anyone know when the next available delivery slots for the B738 and the A320 are.

User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10594 times:

Quoting golli (Reply 9):

I agree about the comfort & cargo factor. However I think the A319 is to small and if they go down to the same seat-segment as Iceland Express (on European routes), FI would be at great disadvantage, because of higher cost base. I do not think that FI would use any Airbuses on North-American routes, in the near future.

Yeah but I think that is something they should try. Their 757's have 180 some seats and the B738 just under 160 seats. It doesn't seem worth it to buy a new type for 20 seats. So I think the A319 and B737-700 are more interesting.

It should be noted that Icelandair Group owns Smart Lynx in Latvia who operate a couple of A320's.

[Edited 2010-02-10 15:37:17]

User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4053 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10470 times:
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Quoting eaa3 (Reply 7):
Yeah but they don't fly the B737 currently. Are there any significant savings from having operating the B757 if one is to buy the B737. Plus Airbus is famous for "accommodating" airlines so that it isn't more expensive to choose the A320.

I though Icelandair's low fare arm, is flying the 73G/73H already/ Wouldn't it be more cost affective for them to stick with the Boeing on this alone?


User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10403 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 13):
I though Icelandair's low fare arm, is flying the 73G/73H already/ Wouldn't it be more cost affective for them to stick with the Boeing on this alone?

What low fare arm. They don't own any B737's


User currently offlineIcebird757 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 666 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10404 times:

Quoting golli (Thread starter):
Personally I think that the A320 suits FI better.

I don't think that the A320 suits them better but it's cheaper than the 738.



LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5746 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10392 times:

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 12):
Their 757's have 180 some seats and the B738 just under 160 seats. It doesn't seem worth it to buy a new type for 20 seats.

They're not buying the smaller aircraft because it has fewer seats; they're buying it because it is much more efficient per seat than the 752 on missions it can fly.


User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9305 times:

Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 16):
They're not buying the smaller aircraft because it has fewer seats; they're buying it because it is much more efficient per seat than the 752 on missions it can fly.

That certainly looks to be a factor but as the thread starter stated they want to be able to fly to smaller destinations i.e. smaller aircraft. Smaller aircraft for smaller destinations because it is easier to fill smaller planes.

Quoting golli (Thread starter):



They need smaller frames than the 757, for European legs to TRD - BGO - SVG - GOT - GLA - BRU

"The 757 would still be the flagship", they say.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15809 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9263 times:

Quoting golli (Reply 9):
but I was thinking more about what the A320 will become,

That is the best factor the A320 has going for it here. Of course, Boeing could jump on the same wagon if Airbus does, but we will have to see.

Quoting golli (Reply 9):
How long, exactly, is the backlog for either type, for a newcomer??

It isn't short, hence why the manufacturers are in no hurry make major upgrades to their airframes. But I'm sure that they can find used ones on the market without too much trouble.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9681 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8931 times:

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 4):
If they want an aircraft that is rather smaller than the B757 then the B738 is closer to the B757 than the A320.

The 737-800 has operating costs that are very comparable and depending on configuration, less than the A320. Yes it has 1 or 2 more rows, but its operating costs are far less than the 757 which is what is important.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8867 times:

Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 8):
The 738 has a slight but noticeable payload range advantage over the A320 (although Airbus's MTOW increase will help with that). If they want to use these frames for any East Coast US routes the 738 will be better.

How does that comparsion look when Airbus install winglets on the A320?



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8655 times:

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 20):
How does that comparsion look when Airbus install winglets on the A320?

No winglets to date have made any significant improvements for the A320 family. Still waiting on the API A320 results though.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8620 times:

Icelandair is no stranger to the 737, they operated the type through the early 00's both pax and cargo variants (plenty of pix in the database of 733 & 734's). Normally, I'd hazard a guess they'd go for the 737 because of this, but its been out of service with FI for the better part of a decade now, and it could go either way. The 320 in FI livery w/ blended winglets would look stellar!


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Photo © Jose Muñoz - Iberian Spotters



Cheers,

MCO-2-BRS


User currently offlinekingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1300 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8424 times:

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 4):
Plus A320 aircraft will look great in Icelandair colors.

That's your opinion  

I think they should go with the 738. It's less of a step down from the 757 than the A320 is. They could probably use some common parts from 757 cabins with 737 cabins as they're both the NG interior (IIRC FI updated their 752s... all of the 753s have it). Also, Boeing could potentially give them a deal as they have an all-Boeing fleet at the moment and have 787 orders.

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offlinegolli From Iceland, joined May 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7148 times:

Quoting kingFriday013 (Reply 23):

I think they should go with the 738. It's less of a step down from the 757 than the A320 is. They could probably use some common parts from 757 cabins with 737 cabins as they're both the NG interior (IIRC FI updated their 752s... all of the 753s have it). Also, Boeing could potentially give them a deal as they have an all-Boeing fleet at the moment and have 787 orders.

The only thing, that the 738 & 757 have in common, are cabin parts.

I think that by having to run a fleet of 2 or more types, is a step down for FI, cost wize. FI abandoned the 2 type approach in 1992/3, when they sold the 734's. AFAIK, FI have never operated 733's. Operating more then 1 type is a fundamental change. So, as I see it. what they order now must work for them well into the future. That is where I see an enhanced A320 - A321 combo. Unless they lease 5 frames, for 5-6 years, until getting the enhanced A320 - A321, in 2016.

I just don't see the 787 running with the 757 with FI, way to much planes, together. If FI keep the 787 order, then I could see a A319 or 73G with FI.
All in all, I have a hard time picturing the 787 in operation with FI. But a combination of A320 & A321 would work nicely.


Golli



Vinnie Colaiuta rocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
25 KC135TopBoom : Well, I see the B-738 a much more versital airplane for FI, it has more range and can fly as far as KEF-SEA (3150nm), so it can easily make all the US
26 aero145 : I agree! The similar-to-the-757’s RR engines look really lovely yellow and have a good effect on the whole look.
27 Burkhard : This will be price and delivery dates dominated, so a real sale. Don't assume that the way of Iceland into the EU depends on 5 small planes...
28 SeaBosDca : A 738 would never be able to even come close to making KEF-SEA with any sort of real-world load and winds. Westbound, they top out at 2200-2300 nm.
29 Icelandair75w : Considering a branch of Icelandair Group, Icelease, has 10-15 NG B737-800's that has a lease expiration from China in a few months/maybe a year it wou
30 eaa3 : Plus the alternative is Glasgow. So you are looking at it needing to be able to fly SEA-GLA, with perhaps a descent, go around in KEF and another ass
31 surfandsnow : How is Icelandair doing these days?? Despite Iceland's precarious economic situation it seems like they are still expanding their network this summer?
32 normie999 : Side question 1 - are those 787s going to be seen in FI colours this side of 2020, or are they lined up for the leasing operation? Side question 2 - i
33 SeaBosDca : JetBlue is considered "cool" because it has leather, generous pitch, and free TV. The aircraft doesn't matter. You'd be lucky on a JetBlue flight to
34 Post contains images LimaNiner : Whoever "wins" the deal had better get cash-on-delivery...
35 kanban : Lead time for new 738's is probably way out there.. however I suspect there are leasing companies with earlier slots and no customer assignment that w
36 david_itl : So if they got a smaller aircraft, what's the implications for the 4 weekly KEF-MAN-GLA-KEF service...to be split again?
37 Post contains images golli : Of course 5 planes wont do anything, as it should. But Those could be among other "carrot's" to throw @ the EU. You can bet that this government are
38 BasilFawlty : No, all former TZ aircrafts are flying with BW, CZ, GA, 9W, BSK, BK, R2 and SGX. However, there are 3 former GSM aircrafts available, all fitted with
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