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AC To Sue For YTZ Access  
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4877 posts, RR: 15
Posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4922 times:

This PD vs. AC debate flares up every few months. Once again AC have stated their intention to sue for access. I have no doubt that this announcement was simply a shot across the bow, made today as the new terminal is set to open just days from now. Also in the news today, QK have put in an order for 15+15 Q400s. Interesting.

Having just flown into YTZ this morning from YOW I really hope that AC aren't allowed to do to PD what they have done to others in the past at YTZ. I fully believe they should be granted access BUT only with a staged long term plan in hand.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...y/2010/02/10/air-canada-earns.html

YOWza


12A whenever possible.
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairman99o From Canada, joined Aug 1999, 975 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

Well seeing Porter owns pretty much Everything on the island. Let them in, Charge them INSANE Rent costs to use gates, catering and the like!! See who Drives who out of the island. Will be an interesting fight if they do get in there.


Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
User currently offlineCRJ 900 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 594 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

Even though I fly for Jazz, I hope they don't let us back in. AC did everything in it's power to "sewer" flying into the island. It was very profitable for Air Ontario, but AC wanted to hub everyone through YYZ. If you called reservations when we still had service there, the agents would rarely mention it and alot of the time they would try and convince you to fly into Pearson, hell, alot of them didn't even know what the airport code was. AC is like a selfish spoiled child. They have something they don't like, then they want it gone, so they put lil resource into it. If someone else wants to pick it up, then all of a sudden they put up a fight for it JUST BECAUSE they don't want anyone else to have it, not for any other reason. Makes me sick, I miss CP.

User currently offlineA346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1283 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4469 times:

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 2):
Even though I fly for Jazz, I hope they don't let us back in. AC did everything in it's power to "sewer" flying into the island. It was very profitable for Air Ontario, but AC wanted to hub everyone through YYZ. If you called reservations when we still had service there, the agents would rarely mention it and alot of the time they would try and convince you to fly into Pearson, hell, alot of them didn't even know what the airport code was. AC is like a selfish spoiled child. They have something they don't like, then they want it gone, so they put lil resource into it. If someone else wants to pick it up, then all of a sudden they put up a fight for it JUST BECAUSE they don't want anyone else to have it, not for any other reason. Makes me sick, I miss CP.

You fly for QK but hate AC?  

You do realize if AC loses market share, Jazz loses market share and you could be out of a job?



You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 783 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4459 times:
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Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 2):
Makes me sick, I miss CP.

Yes because they were so much better? Why does every miss failed airlines? They, along with Onex and the Liberal government are the reason AC almost went under!!!!


User currently offlineCRJ 900 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 594 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4428 times:

I miss CP for my own personal reasons. I'm not going to get into a AC/CP debate, so leave my comments at that.I am fully aware of how markets work. I'm also senior enough to survive layoffs. AC doesn't have the spare aircraft, crew OR other option to replace Jazz. WE fly more flights for AC then they fly themselves.You guys at CMA and Georgian etc wouldn't be able to pick up the slack.

User currently offlineJMackey From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Was there not a rift between AC and CP due to AC's government funding vs. CP's private sector funding ?


I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning
User currently offlineA346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1283 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4305 times:

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 5):
WE fly more flights for AC then they fly themselves.

Getting off-topic but I feel compelled to note, that may be true but AC carries way more passengers over much longer distances.



You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5635 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

Quoting YOWza (Thread starter):
Once again AC have stated their intention to sue for access

Can someone briefly explain, or provide a link, why AC does not have access. The linked article doesn't say.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineDH8PU From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 8):
Can someone briefly explain, or provide a link, why AC does not have access. The linked article doesn't say.

I'm not sure it's possible to be brief on this issue, its a complicated one, but ill do my best.

Real Estate company named REGCO starts up, buys the terminal.

REGCO then executes it's legal (this point is still being fought in the courts) right as landlord and evicts AC from the terminal space.

REGCO becomes Porter Airlines.

Some digging around the CBC archives comes up with

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...28/to-jazzairlinesisland060228.htm



Cabin secure and doors checked
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5635 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

Quoting DH8PU (Reply 9):
I'm not sure it's possible to be brief on this issue, its a complicated one, but ill do my best.

Thanks DH8PU, that helps a lot, although the CBC link did not work for me.

Gemuser



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User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2862 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

Quoting YOWza (Thread starter):
Having just flown into YTZ this morning from YOW I really hope that AC aren't allowed to do to PD what they have done to others in the past at YTZ. I fully believe they should be granted access BUT only with a staged long term plan in hand.

But Porter is very well-established at YTZ now, AC won't be able to do much. In fact, this could turn out like AA vs. B6 at LGB or AA vs. WN at DAL, where the big bad wolf wasn't so tough or powerful after all...



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineyowza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4877 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 11):
But Porter is very well-established at YTZ now, AC won't be able to do much. In fact, this could turn out like AA vs. B6 at LGB or AA vs. WN at DAL, where the big bad wolf wasn't so tough or powerful after all...

It's not that simple I'm afraid. Due to slot and runway length restrictions at YTZ if AC were to come in and offer tickets at the same price that could put Porter in a world of hurt. B6 is and WN are large entities and operate coast to coast. PD is neither of those things. Also when you consider the population pool in the US versus Canada's eastern triangle I would have a hard time believing the situations are all that similar.


YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3724 times:
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Either way PD controls most of the slots as well as the terminal. I suspect if QK does return PD will profit from it one way or the other.


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User currently offlinedh8pu From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 13):
Either way PD controls most of the slots as well as the terminal. I suspect if QK does return PD will profit from it one way or the other.

I agree, Since im sure QK is going to end up leasing space from PD, im sure PD will charge plenty for the privilege.

AC will make some ground back up, there will be some AC Elites and Super Elites who will use QK over PD, especially if AC steps up the service a bit. However I am sure that AC is not going to try and compete on every flight that PD has.



Cabin secure and doors checked
User currently offlineviscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

Quoting airman99o (Reply 1):
Well seeing Porter owns pretty much Everything on the island. Let them in, Charge them INSANE Rent costs to use gates, catering and the like!! See who Drives who out of the island. Will be an interesting fight if they do get in there.

Canada has fairly strong competition laws and Porter would find themselves in potential legal difficulties if they tried to prevent Jazz from obtaining access to YTZ. Canadians don't like monopolies, which they were forced to accept in many markets whtn CP disappeared.


User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

We may simply find that Jazz moves some of its existing Pearson operations to Toronto City Centre, which is a no-change scenario in terms of loads, yields, market share etc. Or they may wage full-scale war on Porter once they return to the island. Given the convenience of YTZ to the downtown core, many people who currently fly Porter to take advantage of that convenience may well be swayed by the frequent flyer perks that AC/Jazz offer and cross the aisle so to speak. But Robert Deluce will not go down without a messy battle.

Keep in mind that may claim that Jazz 'abandoned' the City Centre airport in 2006. They were given a 30-day eviction notice from the terminal by the new REGCO landlords two days before REGCO announced it was starting up this new airline called Porter. There was no alternate space for Jazz to use.

Yes, I fully realize how AC has a history of undercutting new entrants and smaller players in certain markets and gouging fares once those competitors fail or retreat. They could have played smarter in terms of YYZ vs YTZ utilization. But there is no good guy-bad guy in this ongoing saga.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineviscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3530 times:

Quoting threepoint (Reply 16):
We may simply find that Jazz moves some of its existing Pearson operations to Toronto City Centre, which is a no-change scenario in terms of loads, yields, market share etc.

How could AC do that? They don't currently use any aircraft on the prime YYZ-YUL and YYZ-YOW routes that could operate from YTZ's 4,000 ft.runways? They only way they they could move capacity to YTZ without changing capacity would be by offering more flights with smaller aircraft, like the new Q400s Jazz plans to order.


User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

IF QK makes it back in, I doubt they'll have more than a couple YOW and YUL frequencies in compliment of rapidair. Maybe this would give PD the chance to explore other markets? I Highly doubt QK flying to places like EWR, MDW or BOS from YTZ. I would hate to see the YUL and YOW flights go from PD, but I don't think it will be the end of them.

User currently offlineA346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1283 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 18):
I Highly doubt QK flying to places like EWR, MDW or BOS from YTZ.

AC has stated they are interested in starting YTZ-EWR service. As for the others, if they can get the slots, who knows?



You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

I am a Star Alliance member, choose AC over most other carriers, especially for domestic or cross border travel. However, I am very much in favour of competition and Porter staying viable and healthy. Part of the previous problem with Jazz at the City Centre Airport was that it constantly reduced service in favour of more centralized service at YYZ. It would make sense in that YYZ is where all of its connecting service was.

User currently offlinesflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2867 times:

Quoting viscount724 (Reply 15):
Canada has fairly strong competition laws and Porter would find themselves in potential legal difficulties if they tried to prevent Jazz from obtaining access to YTZ. Canadians don't like monopolies, which they were forced to accept in many markets whtn CP disappeared.

but there is plenty of competition in Toronto. PD, AC and WS are all competitors. While they might not be operating from the same airport, they are competing with each other. Keeping each other in check in Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa. They are all competitors. No different from WN/AA in Dallas, WN/CO in Houston, WN/AA-UA in Chicago, UA/US in Washington, AA/NK in the Gold coast, B6 in LGB, etc.


User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 783 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2723 times:
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Quoting viscount724 (Reply 15):
Canada has fairly strong competition laws and Porter would find themselves in potential legal difficulties if they tried to prevent Jazz from obtaining access to YTZ. Canadians don't like monopolies, which they were forced to accept in many markets whtn CP disappeared.

The only time competition laws seem to be exercised is when another carrier i.e Westjet, Porter, don't like what AC does. Nothing happened when Porters head Deluce kicked AC/Jazz out of YTZ to create they're own monopoly. Where were the competition laws then? Could you imagine the up roar if AC had kicked Porter out?

The only monopoly that Canadians don't like is when AC is considered to have a monopoly, which as far as I'm concerned has never happened!

A monopoly would be 100% of the Canadian market, as long as another carrier has 1% its not a monopoly. After the AC takeover of CP, Westjet had 30% of the market!


User currently offlinedc10srule From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting threepoint (Reply 16):
Keep in mind that may claim that Jazz 'abandoned' the City Centre airport in 2006. They were given a 30-day eviction notice from the terminal by the new REGCO landlords two days before REGCO announced it was starting up this new airline called Porter. There was no alternate space for Jazz to use.

  


Jazz had the same opportunities as PD at YTZ. They had all of the slots and could have expanded their operation but chose to keep cutting. I remember a brief time (1999) where JAzz had about 55-60 flights a day at YTZ and watched that dwindle down to 6-8 a day.

Thanks to their 120 flight / 20 aircraft commitment to the facility, PD has had the advantage of a NEW Ferry and now a NEW terminal opening soon while JAzz used a 60 year old terminal building. The Port Authority has done alot more to ensure that PD's operation could flourish. Jazz never made a serious commitment to YTZ to encourage the Port Authority to enhance services at the airport.

I have no problem with Jazz returning to YTZ but the slots available to them will not likely be enough to be a serious threat to PD. (background - there are apparently 92 new slots coming available this year at YTZ and the belief is that PD will get 46 (1/2) leaving 46 for ALL other competitors. (Colgan has also expressed an interest in bringing Q400s over from EWR))

Take Care!



Giggity-Giggity..!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 22):
A monopoly would be 100% of the Canadian market, as long as another carrier has 1% its not a monopoly. After the AC takeover of CP, Westjet had 30% of the market!

I was referring more to individual markets. AC and Jazz still have many city pairs where they are the only operator.


25 abnormal : What hasn't been mentioned for those not familiar with the issue is that the land the Island airport sits on is federally owned and the agency that ad
26 threepoint : [Edited 2010-02-12 17:44:57]
27 Kaiarahi : That's what they've done in the past, even operating at a loss until the competitor is driven out, and then scaling back service: That part of what A
28 jamincan : While I don't want the Island Airport to disappear, I also have a problem with the federal government using the Toronto Port Authority to keep control
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