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Why No PTV's In United Airlines B747 Y Cabin?  
User currently offlineUALORD From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 73 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14599 times:

I looked up if this has been disscussed and it hasnt. So why did United make the decesion to not put PTV's in Y class? I think the 747 would need them the most on those really long haul routes (eg.ORD-HKG,LAX/SFO-SYD,SFO-Asia)?

Thanks

UALORD

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24703 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14581 times:

Simply put, weight and cost.

And yes topic comes up every so often;
IFE On UA 744 And Airside Spotting @ ORD (by Rw774477 Apr 10 2008 in Civil Aviation)
IFE In UA 744 (by Rolo987 Jun 8 2004 in Civil Aviation)
Why No PTV's In UAL's 744's. (by AF777 Jan 11 2001 in Civil Aviation)



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24703 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14550 times:

And another one
Ua's 747's And Ptv's (by Erj145lr Dec 5 2004 in Civil Aviation)



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineUALORD From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14550 times:

I was talking about when they did the new configuration.

User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5929 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14539 times:

Quoting UALORD (Reply 3):
I was talking about when they did the new configuration.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Simply put, weight and cost.

UA doesn't see a ROI on PTVs in Y on the 744 fleet when they will start to be retired in 5 or 6 years.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinepeteschiller From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14408 times:

So you're saying, in other words, that since the B744s are being retired, there's no sense in upgrading them?

I agree, though, it seems strange: one gets a PTV in Y on 777s to Asia, but not on 744s. Seems backwards.


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5929 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14384 times:

Quoting peteschiller (Reply 5):
So you're saying, in other words, that since the B744s are being retired, there's no sense in upgrading them?

I agree, though, it seems strange: one gets a PTV in Y on 777s to Asia, but not on 744s. Seems backwards.

It is a little inconsistent but the 777s will be in the fleet for probably another 15+ years before being completely retired so it makes sense to retrofit them with AVOD in Y when they go in for the new F/J seats. The 744s received new carpeting, bulkheads and seat covers in Y along with the old CRTs being replaced by LCDs when they were retrofitted.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14263 times:

I doubt 1 in 1000 Y class passengers gives IFE any consideration when booking flights. Finding the lowest fare is usually the first priority. IFE systems add a lot of weight and are often very maintenance-intensive. I have rarely been on a flight with IFE where the system works perfectly. Many systems also take up a lot of underseat footroom for the control boxes.

User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14203 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
IFE systems add a lot of weight and are often very maintenance-intensive. I have rarely been on a flight with IFE where the system works perfectly. Many systems also take up a lot of underseat footroom for the control boxes.

Try EK, never had a problem, no underseat box either that bothers..

Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
It is a little inconsistent but the 777s will be in the fleet for probably another 15+ years before being completely retired

I don't hope so, they got them in 1995 IIRC. Most airlines dispose of airframes when reaching max 15 years. By then the cost of a new frame is lower then the maintenance cost of the old ones. Look at SQ and FR for example.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8889 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14188 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
I don't hope so, they got them in 1995 IIRC. Most airlines dispose of airframes when reaching max 15 years. By then the cost of a new frame is lower then the maintenance cost of the old ones. Look at SQ and FR for example.

Not in the United States by any stretch of the imagination. Airlines tend to get at least 25-30 years out of all their airplanes here.


User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5929 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14036 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 9):
Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
I don't hope so, they got them in 1995 IIRC. Most airlines dispose of airframes when reaching max 15 years. By then the cost of a new frame is lower then the maintenance cost of the old ones. Look at SQ and FR for example.

Not in the United States by any stretch of the imagination. Airlines tend to get at least 25-30 years out of all their airplanes here.

25 years is on average for UA before retirement...the 744s start to turn 25 years right about the time the 350-900s start coming online.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14023 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
Most airlines dispose of airframes when reaching max 15 years. By then the cost of a new frame is lower then the maintenance cost of the old ones. Look at SQ and FR for example.

SQ and FR are not the majority, and even SQ is keeping their aircraft much longer now than they used to. Almost all major airlines have aircraft in their fleet that are older (often much older) than 15 years.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13886 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I doubt 1 in 1000 Y class passengers gives IFE any consideration when booking flights. Finding the lowest fare is usually the first priority.

Not so sure about that, airlines make a bid deal these days about how "good" the IFE systems are that they have on board and what they do over the competitions.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24622 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 13811 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 12):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I doubt 1 in 1000 Y class passengers gives IFE any consideration when booking flights. Finding the lowest fare is usually the first priority.

Not so sure about that, airlines make a big deal these days about how "good" the IFE systems are that they have on board and what they do over the competitions.

But when it comes down to the actual booking, the carrier with a $10 lower fare is probably going to get the booking.

It's the same for seat pitch and seats abreast. I go out of my way to avoid 10-abreast 777s but I doubt 1 in 1000 Y class passengers is aware of the difference and only books on the basis of the fare. Otherwise, carriers with 10-abreast 777s, like EK on all 777s and KL and AF on 77Ws, would be losing business to competitors like AC/BA/QR/UA/AA/DL and many others with more comfortable 9-abreast configurations.

And when AA (and TW a few years earliier) removed several rows of seats from their Y class cabins and heavily promoted their increased seat pitch (e.g. AA's "More room in coach"), they quickly discovered that more spacious seating than their competitors didn't translate into enough increased revenue to offset the loss of seats and they put all the removed seats back on the aircraft after a couple of years.


User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 13754 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I doubt 1 in 1000 Y class passengers gives IFE any consideration when booking flights. Finding the lowest fare is usually the first priority.

On a 14hr+ LAX-SYD sector it would definitely be a consideration for me.

If I had a choice of airline, they had similar fares (say give or take 20 or 30 dollars) I would definitely choose the one with decent IFE.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8889 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 13739 times:

Quoting bastew (Reply 14):

On a 14hr+ LAX-SYD sector it would definitely be a consideration for me.

If I had a choice of airline, they had similar fares (say give or take 20 or 30 dollars) I would definitely choose the one with decent IFE.

It'd be the same case for the vast majority of posters on sites like A.net, FlyerTalk, etc. - people on sites like those generally know about the product on the airlines.

Truth be told though, if you go walking down the street and ask random people if a UA 744 or a DL 763 or a whatever has PTVs or not, most of the people will not have the slightest clue. And it's those people, who make up 90% of the population, that are booking the tickets - they're looking at price, times, etc. To them, they don't know the difference between say a Delta 777-200LR with PTVs and a United 747-400 without on LAX-SYD, leaving at roughly the same times. They'll see that UA is $10 cheaper and go with that unless they do extra research or know from experiences.


User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 13581 times:

Thats true.....I think most people would just expect a plane on a longhaul flight to have a PTV as a minimum, AVOD as a plus. I bet they get a lot of disappointed people that walk thru that curtain from Business to Economy.

User currently offlineUnitedFA07 From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13258 times:

DEAD HORSE!! lol   

  


User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5269 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13157 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
I don't hope so, they got them in 1995 IIRC. Most airlines dispose of airframes when reaching max 15 years. By then the cost of a new frame is lower then the maintenance cost of the old ones. Look at SQ and FR for example.

SQ is driven to much faster than industry typical fleet replacement by Singapore's odd depreciation schedules -- they replace frames for tax rather than operational reasons.

FR's business model only works because they used to get stupendously low prices from Boeing for ordering truly massive numbers of aircraft. They sell used 737s at a profit. Most airlines could not get away with this.

Look at the majority of European, Asian, and American airlines and you will find that aircraft stay in the fleet around 25 years. In many cases, especially in North America, they last longer than that.

The highest-quality airlines will refurbish the aircraft periodically so the customer has no idea of the age of the aircraft. To use the perennial example here, DL's 40-year-old DC-9s have more modern cabins than their half-as-old MD-88s.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineLDIkaros From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12932 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):

I doubt 1 in 1000 Y class passengers gives IFE any consideration when booking flights. Finding the lowest fare is usually the first priority. IFE systems add a lot of weight and are often very maintenance-intensive. I have rarely been on a flight with IFE where the system works perfectly. Many systems also take up a lot of underseat footroom for the control boxes.

Absolutely not! Finding the lowest fare is not my main consideration when I book these long 12+h nonstop flights to Asia. IFE, seat pitch, service quality etc are also important factors. Maybe people who don't fly very often don't know any better or even don't care. However, once you fly more often long-distance US-Asia and discover the differences between carriers you don't want to book the cheapest flight but the one that gets you the most bang for your buck, so to say. And that is not necessarily the flight for the least amount of money.

UA not having IFE is a deal killer for me, apart from other deficiencies.

CX, here I come ...


User currently offlineFilAmAirlines From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12817 times:

Because UA would rather concentrate their money and energy towards California cows than other cows from all over the world. However, most of their paying passengers are cows from all over the world who deserve decent service and amenities (PTVs [AVOD is a plus] and Y+ that's more than only extra legroom) to compete with other airlines.
California cows = F and J pax; Other cows from all over the world = Y and Y+



FNT is the death knell for MBS and LAN because of WN's commitment
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24703 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12791 times:

Frankly I dont see IFE as being a big part(if at all) in the decision making process for most people, especially in Y class.

I think many airlines spend fortunes on systems that do not endear them to the public anymore then the next airline that might be $10 cheaper.

So at the end of the day, United 744 having or not having them is not causing some mass booking away. Afterall the carrier is enjoying record load factors, so for each person that IFE might be an issue for, there obviously are dozens more that will fly the carrier without it.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I doubt 1 in 1000 Y class passengers gives IFE any consideration when booking flights.

  
IATA does rather regular surveys on traveller decision making, and I have yet to see IFE make it on the list as a decision factor for a purchase. Typical things like fares, schedules, connecting airports, frequent flyer programs, seating, and even food and aircraft types come up before someone mentions IFE as a booking objective.

Quoting bastew (Reply 14):
On a 14hr+ LAX-SYD sector it would definitely be a consideration for me.
Quoting LDIkaros (Reply 19):
Absolutely not! Finding the lowest fare is not my main consideration when I book these long 12+h nonstop flights to Asia.

Neither of you are not the typical traveller -- you hang on this website.

Quoting UnitedFA07 (Reply 17):
DEAD HORSE!! lol

Indeed



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2289 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12223 times:

With these questions about " Why no PTV's in Y" and some of the "horror stories" of Y Flights on LH 744's, I wonder how people survived flying long haul back in the 70's and 80's when all you had was that "big screen" on the bulkhead wall..   


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12023 times:

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 22):
With these questions about " Why no PTV's in Y" and some of the "horror stories" of Y Flights on LH 744's, I wonder how people survived flying long haul back in the 70's and 80's when all you had was that "big screen" on the bulkhead wall..

People used to read before they forgot how too !!   



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinePanAm747LHR From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 232 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12015 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
Try EK, never had a problem, no underseat box either that bothers..

Which EK did you fly?! Because I worked for Emirates for 2 years, and spent 2 years listening to economy passengers complain about how little legroom they had and about the boxes under the seat. And if you flew more than 2 sectors without IFE issues, you were lucky - I can count on one hand the number of flights I worked on or flew on as a passenger in two years with EK that didn't have IFE issues. If they weren't so anxious to turn their planes around as if it were Southwest, they might have time to fix these little things but that's not the case, so....


25 YULWinterSkies : Clearly. I have heard before on AF 744 when pax had done the inbound trip on another aircraft type, or AC on one of these old 762 when they has flown
26 peteschiller : That's for sure! Man, that's really annoying. Can't those boxes go anywhere else? That's the one pros of not having the map ... Ok, I admit, it's low
27 PacificClipper : You are right about the majority of the travelling population. But I think there is a growing number of people who fly frequently enough and have som
28 JohnClipper : AVOD comes in to play in my decision as well. Prefer CX over UA if stuck in Y due to PTV.
29 TheCommodore : Absolutely, Much more important the saving $10 dollars on a round trip
30 Kappel : For SQ it used to be 5 years, not it's about 10 years. Still a lot less than average. It has indeed much to do with Singapore's depreciation rules. I
31 cpd : Most people I know do their research - and at the very least, avoid flying UA. So the lack of PTV doesn't become a problem. There are so many better o
32 SparkingWave : Most passengers seem to be able to cope with the current noise levels in the B747s, it's not that loud. Airplane interior noise is not a main criteri
33 bastew : I travel for a living. And in the course of so, encounter thousands of travellers a month on the flights I work. Judging by the amounts of moans and
34 Lufthansa411 : Depending on the overall cost of the ticket the $10 could make a difference. If the ticket is $59 then yes, that will make a difference. But if you a
35 Kaiarahi : People may not research IFE when booking, but once they've flown a long-haul leg without IFE they'll avoid that airline like the plague in future. An
36 LDIkaros : Yes, I am not the typical infrequent traveller who flies once a year and for whom price is the only major consideration. I fly quite often and know w
37 SSTsomeday : Yeah, the airlines that DO have IFE in coach... Are THEY losing more money in that cabin? Don't THEY find it worth it? When I priced Y trips to Sydne
38 borism : Yes, exactly. But it doesn't matter - perhaps they will get that money this time, but they are very unlikely to ever get it again.
39 timpdx : You better believe IFE makes a difference. I have 2 cousins with children, and they ONLY travel Virgin and Jet Blue 100% for IFE. (Domestic) They know
40 cpd : It is very loud in comparison with the A380. When you are stuck slightly behind those engines and listening to the roar of them for a long time (eg,
41 carpethead : On the flip side, what good is IFE, if one plans to just eat, read and sleep on the flight. Believe it or not that's what many travellers, including m
42 SeaBosDca : That's simply not true. Customers say they won't fly airline X again, but then they completely forget when airline X has a fare $2 (forget $10) lower
43 cpd : It actually is true. If you burn a customer, they won't come back. While the USA has dropped to the depths of poor service in economy class with litt
44 SSTsomeday : Yup-. Fool me once, Shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me. I find that on long haul flight in coach, the one way I can comfort myself best with re
45 COEWR2587 : Why is this still getting discussed???!?/
46 Post contains images Kappel : There are also a lot of travellers (myself included) that have a very hard time sleeping on a plane, especially in Y. Good IFE goes a long way to hel
47 SeaBosDca : You've heard that from people on FlyerTalk and a.net. Those people are the tiny minority I was talking about. 95+% of flyers have no idea what a 763E
48 Kappel : No, as I said in one of my earlier posts in this thread, I base that on the statements on people I know that have no affinity for aviation. That's no
49 avek00 : You all underestimate the addictive power of Mileage Plus, or of USA-based frequent-flyer programs generally.
50 Kaiarahi : Why just U.S. based plans?
51 ekskycargo370 : Dead and buried airline with no money perhaps?
52 Brick : So for you people complaining about a lack of IFE on United 747's, here's a question for you. You are traveling between Los Angeles and Sydney: Delta
53 Post contains images Kappel : With that big of a difference, sure. Don't know where you got your prices from, but I did a random check for LAX-SYD-LAX from May1 to May 15. Prices:
54 borism : Well, one of the reasons I chose CO and AA mileage programs over DL, UA or US ones is exactly because I am more likely to get PTV on transoceanic rou
55 Kent350787 : Interestingly, the opposite direction, same equipment, same days fares converted from AUD to USD: QF: 1154 DL: 1323 UA: 1009 VA: basically the same a
56 Post contains images LDIkaros : True, the majority of people don't have a clue about IFE, aircraft types, etc and they will probably book with the cheapest carrier. However, these a
57 Kent350787 : Of course, for USD1200-1500 more you can fly Premium Economy on V or ANZ (1 stop), and, at 6'3", I'd be choosing either of these. Or ANZ economy with
58 AusA380 : When I was travelling back and forth from Sydney to the US for a client who only paid Y class, even though UA was their preferred airline, they had to
59 UALORD : I would pay extra to get a PTV but then again we have all ipods to watch our own videos on. I would just pay extra to get on the A380!
60 avek00 : Exactly. USA-based carrier FFPs are generally as good or better than opium in terms of addictive power, and it helps the legacies muddle through duri
61 Kappel : That's indeed interesting. That's a big difference, especially in the DL fare. No, we don't. I for example only have a nano. Besides, ipod still has
62 SSTsomeday : So why do some airlines have it? They paid for it. Are they commanding higher fares in Coach? Are they attracting more passengers. I have to assume i
63 Kappel : Well, from the example it seems that this only is the case for tickets booked in Australia. For tickets booked in the US, DL matches UA's fare. And c
64 Kaiarahi : You can shout all you want - it wont wake your dead horse up. If you actually look at airline ratings and the customer surveys on which they're based
65 Post contains images AirbusA6 : PTVs are an important factor for Y travellers, and people aren't so ignorant these days, a quick look at airline websites shows what in flight enterta
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