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Regionals In Europe  
User currently offlineVinnieWinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 770 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 2974 times:

With the 1 year anniversary of the Colgan crash, a lot issued have been found with regional airlines:

- Pilot fatigue
- Poor Pilot Pay
- Lack of Pilot Training
- Hazardous safety practices
- Poor Management culture
- ...

Now what is the situation in Europe? I know a few airlines have regional branches, such as

Air France - Cityjet
KLM - Cityhopper
LH - Eurowings
...

Do European airlines maintain oversight on their subsidiaries? Does European law make the carrier selling its services responsible for any issues that may arise? How about pay? Are we talking about 22000 - 35000 euros a year? Is their a crashpad culture in Europe as well? are 16 hours a day workdays common in Europe?

I was really sad when I watched the PBS show last week. It really was unsettling to say the least...

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12323 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

I don't know the answers to any of these questions definitely, BUT I can say that all of these airlines would be covered by JAA (Joint Airworthiness Authorities) regulations. There are limits on the number of flying hours in Europe, being 900h per annum and (I think) 900h per month.

I doubt if there is a crashpad culture; unlike US carriers, these airlines tend to be concentrated in one or two bases; it's not impossible that some pilots do commute long distances of course, but I think it's fairly safe to say that the Cityjet pilots, for the most part, tend to be Irish and would live mostly in and around Dublin (except of course, the ex-VLM pilots, who would tend to live fairly close to Antwerp).

KLM Cityhopper pilots are, as far as I'm aware, on the same seniority list as mainline KLM pilots, so they'd work to the same rules. LH, I'm not sure, but I'd assume that a similar arrangement applies.

If there were dangers about fatigue, it might be worth looking beyond those regional carriers linked to major airlines and looking instead to the large low-cost carriers.


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
There are limits on the number of flying hours in Europe, being 900h per annum and (I think) 900h per month.

Maybe a typing mistake? Could it be rather 90 hours per month? But I don't know for sure either.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting VinnieWinnie (Thread starter):
Now what is the situation in Europe? I know a few airlines have regional branches, such as

Air France - Cityjet

don't forget Regional, Brit Air and even Airlinair (which belongs partly to Brit Air, but not a major stake IIRC)


User currently offlinebahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1757 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

All I have to say that I have a friend that flies for one of the LH regional partners. He is about to lose his job, but what he brings home as a CRJ FO is a salary that no regional pilot in US will ever see. Most of his flights are out and backs and he has not more than 4 legs per day.
When I mentioned to him how much I get paid and we have no crew meals , etc. he almost flipped out of his chair.

Compared to what we have in US, they are in pilot heaven  



Earthbound misfit I
User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2323 times:
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The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004 apply (Based on the EU working time directives)

2004 No. 756

CIVIL AVIATION

The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004

Made 11th March 2004
Laid before Parliament 19th March 2004
Coming into force 13th April 2004


This is an extract from the UK statutory instrument

Maximum annual working time
9. An employer shall ensure that in any month -


(a) no person employed by him shall act as a crew member during the course of his working time, if during the period of 12 months expiring at the end of the month before the month in question the aggregate block flying time of that person exceeds 900 hours; and

(b) no crew member employed by him shall have a total annual working time of more than 2,000 hours during the period of 12 months expiring at the end of the month before the month in question.

Rest days
10. - (1) Without prejudice to regulation 4, an employer shall ensure that all crew members employed by him are notified in writing as soon as possible of their right to rest days which shall be free of all employment duties including acting as a standby.

(2) For the purposes of this regulation, rest days are -


(a) not less than 7 days in each month during which a crew member works for his employer, which may include any rest periods required under article 72 of the Air Navigation Order 2000[7]; and

(b) not less than 96 days in each calendar year during which a crew member works for his employer, which may include any rest periods required under article 72 of the Air Navigation Order 2000.

Enforcement
11. The provisions of Schedule 2 to these Regulations shall apply in relation to the enforcement of the relevant requirements.


Full copy of instrument viewable here:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2004/20040756.htm
Print copy reference : ISBN 0 11 048909 8


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting VinnieWinnie (Thread starter):
Now what is the situation in Europe? I know a few airlines have regional branches, such as
Quoting VinnieWinnie (Thread starter):
Do European airlines maintain oversight on their subsidiaries? Does European law make the carrier selling its services responsible for any issues that may arise? How about pay? Are we talking about 22000 - 35000 euros a year? Is their a crashpad culture in Europe as well? are 16 hours a day workdays common in Europe?

I was really sad when I watched the PBS show last week. It really was unsettling to say the least...

It's not perfectly straightforward to answer your question/concerns as written, simply because the term and entity itself of 'Regionals' within Europe is entirely different from that known in the US. They are a different concept altogether.


User currently offlineFlyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2001 times:

In Europe (and the majority of the world ex-USA) commuting long distances by plane is not condoned as it is in the US which eliminates the crashpad-lifestyle for the most part. The pay in Europe is much more liveable than in the US for regional carriers as well.

Also, I believe most "regional carriers" in other parts of the world are wholly owned subsidiaries, or exclusive providers of regional feed. That would eliminate the whipsaw competition between rival regional carriers competing to cut costs and gain contract flying from each other. Hopefully the FAA can learn a thing or two from the rest of the world.



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User currently offlinecaribillo From Spain, joined Jul 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1950 times:

Another one:

IB - Air Nostrum



Red, orange and yellow...with a big crown!
User currently offlineVinnieWinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 770 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1912 times:

All, Thanks for your responses so far!

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 6):

It's not perfectly straightforward to answer your question/concerns as written, simply because the term and entity itself of 'Regionals' within Europe is entirely different from that known in the US. They are a different concept altogether.

Well, that is why i actually ended up asking many open ended questions knowing full well that European Regionals work under a different model.

What strikes me is that AF has cityjet working under Irish labour laws. Nothing wrong per se although I suppose that must involve some other rules/regulations and probably some obligations such as residency in Ireland.

A few years back I remember Sabena proposing/implementing (Not sure) some contracts where its pilot would be under Irish status to avoid Belgian punitive taxes. Was there another advantage such as working hours?


Now I know there is a EU directive regarding working hours. Some countries such as Britain opted out. Does that mean that countries are more flexible in terms of working hours..

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):
The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004 apply (Based on the EU working time directives)

From what you quote:

- Max 900 hour flying time
- Max 2000 hour duty time

How about maximum duty time a day?

I understand that in the US regional carriers max out pilots according to what FAA allows/doesn't say, whereas the network carriers have specific agreements with its pilots.

Can we therefore say that whatever specific pilot agreement applies for a network career in Europe applies for its subsidiary as well?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1886 times:

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 6):
the term and entity itself of 'Regionals' within Europe is entirely different from that known in the US. They are a different concept altogether.

How are they different? In my opinion, carriers like LH Regional partner carriers Cirrus Airlines and their subsidiary Augsburg Airways, which are independent regional carriers but contract most of their capacity to LH and are integrated into the LH network, aren't much different than many independent regional carriers in North America that operate the same way.


User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

LOT - EuroLot (is it their regional or..?)

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