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WN 2534 - Near Collision Over Burbank  
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 812 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14104 times:

http://cbs2.com/local/Pilot.takes.evasive.2.1499087.html

WN 2534 from LAS was on a collision course with a private plane at 6000 ft.

Lucky escape

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3075 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14102 times:

Quoting DTWLAX (Thread starter):
WN 2534 from LAS was on a collision course with a private plane at 6000 ft.

Lucky escape

Sounds like the TCAS worked just like it was supposed to. As with everything, training, technology, and a little bit of luck.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14065 times:

Sad to see that anyone was injured, but TCAS worked as it should!

But, TCAS usually doesn't create alerts which normally has injuries associated with the event. Is this a bit of new media having a slow day or did the TCAS alert create an abnomral response from the flight deck crew? Just a curious a.netter!!!

[Edited 2010-02-16 19:22:07]


Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13980 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):

Yeah it does seem to be a bit far out, but we are missing the speeds and direction of each aircraft. I will look to see if a report has made it to the web yet, although it may be a bit soon for that. The news isn't always the best at giving information unfortuneately. Best wishes to the FA, I hope that he or she recovers quickly!



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineIlliniCMI From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13858 times:

Yes saw this a hour or so ago, sorry to hear there were FA injuries, but fortunately nothing more severe (i.e. head injury, etc.). Also curious to see what happened.

Have a related question... how wide an angle does the TCAS work? For an illustration, say two planes are flying due north (0 degrees), a few miles apart, at exactly the same speed and altitude. Now say the plane on left turns east slightly (say, 5 degrees). Now the planes are closing at a very shallow angle towards each other. This would eventually lead to a collision. Would the system pick this up? Or would it just fall back to ATC to prevent this? Thanks in advance.


User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13814 times:

Anytime a pilot has to take evasive action, unbelted occupants are most likely going to be injured. The F/As were probably up and walking around performing their safety checks. I wish them a speedy recovery!  


My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2425 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13776 times:

Glad to see technology work the way it should!

Does anyone know what tail number it was? I am not sure if TCAS is on the 733/735..



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 812 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13727 times:

Quoting IlliniCMI (Reply 4):
For an illustration, say two planes are flying due north (0 degrees), a few miles apart, at exactly the same speed and altitude. Now say the plane on left turns east slightly (say, 5 degrees). Now the planes are closing at a very shallow angle towards each other. This would eventually lead to a collision

They will not collide.

At the same speed, if the plane on the right maintains its direction, it (plane on the right) will have passed the point of intersection of the paths of the 2 planes.
This is a principle of geometry (Pythagoras theorem) where the plane on the left will follow the hypotenuse and will thus take a bit longer to reach the point of intersection.

But there will probably be some alert if it is happening to maintain safe distance even though they will not collide.


User currently offlineluv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13726 times:
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Quoting m11stephen (Reply 5):
Anytime a pilot has to take evasive action, unbelted occupants are most likely going to be injured. The F/As were probably up and walking around performing their safety checks. I wish them a speedy recovery!

True, but in theory, TCAS alerts should allow enough time so as to avoid abrupt moves. Of course, two injured FAs is much better than one missing vertical stabilizer..

Somehow I can't help but think of Aeromexico 498.

Quoting IlliniCMI (Reply 4):

Have a related question... how wide an angle does the TCAS work? For an illustration, say two planes are flying due north (0 degrees), a few miles apart, at exactly the same speed and altitude. Now say the plane on left turns east slightly (say, 5 degrees). Now the planes are closing at a very shallow angle towards each other. This would eventually lead to a collision. Would the system pick this up? Or would it just fall back to ATC to prevent this? Thanks in advance.

I don't have an exact answer for you, but TCAS is known to show some misleading info when an aircraft creeps up from behind/under your aircraft. Here's some great info: http://www.theairlinepilots.com/flight/tcastrafficdisplay.htm

Can't wait for ADS-B!



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13650 times:

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 6):
I am not sure if TCAS is on the 733/735..

TCAS is on every Southwest jet as well as almost all, if not all airlines, regional or mainline.

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 3):
but we are missing the speeds and direction of each aircraft

Agreed however, TCAS in most cases is set to provide XXX (400') for some reason sounds close. The altitude in the article reported to be fairly low, and if correct, should eliminate excessive high speeds resulting in an abrupt event being required.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineIlliniCMI From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13648 times:

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 7):

OK then, let me clarify my example by saying that the plane on the left turns east 2.5 degrees and the plane on the right turns west 2.5 degrees....

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 8):

Thanks for the info!


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13633 times:

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 8):
Can't wait for ADS-B

Oh yes, presuming the ADS-B equipped airplane has a pilot/crew that is aware of their surroundings!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13587 times:

Quoting IlliniCMI (Reply 4):
Have a related question... how wide an angle does the TCAS work? For an illustration, say two planes are flying due north (0 degrees), a few miles apart, at exactly the same speed and altitude. Now say the plane on left turns east slightly (say, 5 degrees). Now the planes are closing at a very shallow angle towards each other. This would eventually lead to a collision. Would the system pick this up? Or would it just fall back to ATC to prevent this? Thanks in advance.

It should pick up the traffic and issue appropriate TAs or RAs.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13587 times:

Quoting luv2cattlecall (Reply 8):
Can't wait for ADS-B!

Absolutely. What a glorious day it will be when we are forced into nothing more than a few VORs and NDB's for navigation and nothing but position reporting for ATC. How glorious that will be.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 13296 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
But, TCAS usually doesn't create alerts which normally has injuries associated with the event. Is this a bit of new media having a slow day or did the TCAS alert create an abnomral response from the flight deck crew? Just a curious a.netter!!!

The HEB Mark I, which each pilot (usually) has two of, is known to produce some rather quick, instinctual movements when the owners of the said devices use it for VFR traffic separation and the controlling computer realizes that it is on a collision course in close quarters  

HEB, by the way, is "Human Eye Ball"  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineThrottleHold From South Africa, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13085 times:

TCAS will provide an RA, which is a 1G manouever. Overcontrolling in the event of an RA is usually the reason for injuries in the cabin.

User currently offlinebahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1824 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12803 times:

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 6):
I am not sure if TCAS is on the 733/735..

You say that , based on ?



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2425 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12775 times:

Quoting bahadir (Reply 16):
You say that , based on ?

Based on the fact that before I read this :

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 9):
TCAS is on every Southwest jet as well as almost all, if not all airlines, regional or mainline.

I did not know that TCAS is a feature on all airliners, I thought it was only limited to the 757.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinebahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1824 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12750 times:

It's a FAR Part 121 requirement. Now you know  


Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1477 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12657 times:

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 17):
I did not know that TCAS is a feature on all airliners, I thought it was only limited to the 757

If you don't mind me asking. Why would it be limited to only 757's? It is an FAR that it is installed in all PT121 ops. Just curious where the "757 only" was generated? Doesn't make tremendous amount of logic to believe it installed on only one type of aircraft.

TCAS talks to both airplanes and gives commands to each. In this case if the other airplane doesn't have TCAS and the WN aircraft did it could have produced guidance to WN. The other aircraft would not have received a command and once in sight of WN it could have maneuvered in a manner that the TCAS gave WN aircraft a change in the guidance ie; change a climb "command" to a "descend now command". The change from a climb to a descend or vice versa could result in the pilots taking abrupt action to prevent collision.


User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2425 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11915 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 19):
If you don't mind me asking. Why would it be limited to only 757's? It is an FAR that it is installed in all PT121 ops. Just curious where the "757 only" was generated? Doesn't make tremendous amount of logic to believe it installed on only one type of aircraft

I don't mind at all, I watched a documentary about the DHL 757 and a Russian Jetliner crash, and it mentioned the TCAS feature that was on the 757, For some reason I thought that it was only on the 757, again a mistake that I made, as a 757 pilot told me last night that this is a feature on all planes.

I also wanted to add as a side note, like a few others on this site, I am still learning about the features and what not on these planes, I apologize if I do make a mistake from time to time..

[Edited 2010-02-17 07:15:41]


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1477 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10699 times:

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 20):
I also wanted to add as a side note, like a few others on this site, I am still learning about the features and what not on these planes, I apologize if I do make a mistake from time to time.

No worries. I was just interested in the genesis of the thought.

Regards,
mcdu


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8120 times:

Flying my glider at 12,500 about 10 miles east of Palmdale California, I almost had a midair with a Gulfstream business jet 2 years ago. I could clearly see the two pilots looking up at me as they dove right under me, banking left (too late for that). ATC routes the planes right in that area for approach sometimes. Cloud base was about 13,500 and they pop right out of the cloud right there into VFR territory. They approached me from behind. I was getting a bad feeling and decided to bank so that anyone approaching me would see me better. I saw them right under me about 300 feet or so. I was warned about this area and now I know first hand about being aware in this area and acting accordingly. Glider do not carry TCAS and most do not carry Transponders either - I don't. But this will change.

I also often clearly see Southwest planes at my level between 12 -18,000 feet coming and going 2-4 miles away, both to the north and to the south of the San Gabriel Mountains, where I usually fly over. I keep my eyes peeled for jets at this altitude because they are the only ones this high.There is a lot of traffic in this area and a lot of airports, both big and small, commercial, private and military. It's a testament to cooperation that nothing has happened since the Aeromexico collision. I now look where the days corridor is and stay away, even though I have every right to fly there - I don't and neither does anyone else that I know of.

Next time I will advise ATC of my presence if I have to cross through the days lanes at their altitude. Jets at this altitude still have a good amount of airspeed and the crews are probably heads down. Normally they hold them pretty high before bringing them down in a step fashion close in. Most general aviation VFR traffic will not go above 12-14,000 feet anyway so that works for the most part in VFR airspace. Gliders however, easily get up to 18,000 in summer and more in winter (with ATC permission using the wave window), running the desert thermals and streets, mountain waves or ridges.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7958 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 22):
I also often clearly see Southwest planes at my level between 12 -18,000 feet coming and going 2-4 miles away, both to the north and to the south of the San Gabriel Mountains, where I usually fly over. I keep my eyes peeled for jets at this altitude because they are the only ones this high

I was once doing a practice localizer approach at UAO (VFR conditions on a severe clear day, and a friend in the right seat as my safety pilot), and flying through the PDX Class C airspace. We were being vectored by ATC onto the final approach course at UAO, and I was wondering why they were keeping us so blinkin' high. Next thing I know, the controller handling us says "Southwest xxx, Traffic at 1 o'clock, 2 miles is a Cessna, he's 1000 feet above you..." I never got to see it, though, bloody IFR hood    They apparently went right below us (with 1000 feet of separation), according to my safety pilot  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineLH459 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7684 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 22):
Gliders however, easily get up to 18,000 in summer and more in winter (with ATC permission using the wave window), running the desert thermals and streets, mountain waves or ridges.

Please forgive me for veering OT, but don't you get hypoxic up there? Or do you carry oxygen? Just wondering.  



"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
25 LAXPAX : I always think of that tragedy when I hear stories involving TCAS. The documentary you referred to is one of the finest I've seen. The actual events
26 rwessel : Sure, you use oxygen in a sailplane for high altitude flights, just like in any other unpressurized aircraft.
27 luv2cattlecall : I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic? And if so..why? Situations such as this prove why ADS-B will increase safety and situational awareness, so
28 DiamondFlyer : Because I'm in favor of a system that doesn't kill the entire navigation and ATC portions of flight with a single failure. ADS-B is a joke for many a
29 IAHFLYR : ADS-B equipped aircraft as I understand it will have a display to show other aircraft that are also transmitting their position based on their ADS-B e
30 Scotland1979 : The latest I received it was Southwest 737-7H4 - registration N221WN Frank
31 SXDFC : Does anyone know what day this incident occurred? The article says that it happened over the weekend, but does anyone know an actual date that this in
32 timz : Article says Saturday, and that's the most recent SWA2534 shown on Flightaware.
33 wolflair : SXDFC, IIRC, on the DHL 757 and Tu154 collision over Germany, the TCAS on board both planes issued RAs to their respective crews. The RAs were consist
34 IAHFLYR : In the U.S. that policy was established long ago, well before the event you mention.
35 goldenshield : I'm not sure how old the private aircraft in question is, but the problem is here is not Southwest, its 737, or the TCAS on the plane itself. The prob
36 Post contains links KELPkid : I respectfully disagree. TCAS can read Mode C returns, however it has no way of exciting a mode C transponder. What this means is that in a radar env
37 goldenshield : A slight mis-wording on my part in the last sentence. My bad. Once I get around to it, the first thing going into my new plane is a mode S transponde
38 DiamondFlyer : I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying its a worthless system for a vast majority of non-airline aircraft out there. Too much costs involved with i
39 Post contains links HotelDJRomeo : It is up on avherald now... http://www.avherald.com/h?article=42763a7b Not much new there. Confirms reg is N221WN, 737-700, Flight 2534 from LAS to BU
40 timz : Were they, in this case?
41 Post contains images KELPkid : The airspace in, above, and surrounding BUR is definitely a radar environment...no way around that Therefore, the other aircraft would have been prod
42 timz : Far as we know they were not in Class B or Class C or a TRSA?
43 Post contains images KELPkid : They may not have been, however there is enough radar coverage around the area to excite a Mode C return which would have been picked up by the WN's
44 mcdu : That is an inaccurate statement. TCAS can see MODE C TXP's. TCAS will give resolution guidance to the crews relative to a MODE C TXP.
45 goldenshield : See reply 36 and 37.
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