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Air Marshal In-Flight Arrest On CO 59  
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7176 posts, RR: 86
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 23786 times:
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Much more of this behavior and we'll have to start taking a breathalyzer to get on a flight.   

Glad the help was on board; most likely ramped efforts from Homeland Security since Christmas.

http://www.hcnonline.com/articles/20...od_observer/news/0810airportko.txt

111 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineboeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 23467 times:

How does he assault them when they have guns? Serious? Also to-date no one has received jail time for these kind of incidents. I do not know why they bother to report/include that in the article.

Janet Napolitano, needs to pressure FAM and the city of Houston's District Attorney to give this guy some jail time to send a clear message that the program is changing and they are serious about prosecuting unruly passengers. Glad everyone was ok.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22854 times:

Quoting boeingfever777 (Reply 1):
Janet Napolitano, needs to pressure FAM and the city of Houston's District Attorney to give this guy some jail time to send a clear message that the program is changing and they are serious about prosecuting unruly passengers. Glad everyone was ok.


Wrong. The Attorney General of the United States does not to get involved in the elementary matter of administering justice to a drunken jackass. That's a matter for local law enforcement authorities.

I'd like the AG's office to focus on prosecuting the Richard Reids and Omar Abdulmutallubs of the world.

[Edited 2010-02-17 12:04:06]

User currently offlinestackhouse007 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 417 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22782 times:
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He had to sit in the crew rest area for the remainder of the flight? Isn't that up by the cockpit on some planes? or no.. Im not sure.


Nikon D60: 18-55mm - 55-200mm / Canon 50D: 100-400mm
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22630 times:

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 2):
The Attorney General of the United States

That isn't Napolitano's job title, she is the Homeland Security Secretary.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineboeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22634 times:

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 2):
Wrong. The Attorney General of the United States does not to get involved in the elementary matter of administering justice to a drunken jackass. That's a matter for local law enforcement authorities.

Your wrong guy... She is head of United States Homeland Security.    Eric H. Holder Jr. is the US Attorney General.

Quoting boeingfever777 (Reply 1):
I'd like the AG's office to focus on prosecuting the Richard Reids and Omar Abdulmutallubs of the world.

Also Reid is Incarcerated at ADX Florence, Colorado... Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab will join him soon.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7176 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22612 times:
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The a/c was N67052. I'm guessing they were close to IAH and didn't require a divert.

Quoting boeingfever777 (Reply 1):

[quote=Boeing747_600,reply=2]The Attorney General of the United States does not to get involved in the elementary matter of administering justice to a drunken jackass. That's a matter for local law enforcement authorities.

 

Where did he mention the office of AG? He suggested Big Sis should be a little more proactive and lean on a DA to ask for jail time. Interference with a flight crew and assault on a federal officer could get him up to 20 years in jail.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22550 times:

That man had to be on something...and usually aren't their 2 sky marshals on board?


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User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22386 times:

Quoting stackhouse007 (Reply 3):

Yes it it. But since he was more than likely handcuffed, the crew rest ares is a good cell, if you will. Plus it keeps him away from the other passengers to keep them calm.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 7):
aren't their 2 sky marshals on board?

I'm not sure we'll know the answer to that one. The FAM's usually keep their SOP's quiet, and for good reason too.



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 22175 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 7):
That man had to be on something...and usually aren't their 2 sky marshals on board?

At least two, sometimes more.

Quoting stackhouse007 (Reply 3):
He had to sit in the crew rest area for the remainder of the flight? Isn't that up by the cockpit on some planes? or no.. Im not sure.

He was probably put in the F/A crew rest which is near doors 3L and 3R if IIRC. There is also a separate crew rest for the pilots in the flight deck but I doubt he was put into that one.

From what I've read, Air Marshals are not supposed to blow their cover unless a passenger is an imminent threat to the safety of the aircraft. Either this passenger was really acting up or the FAM didn't follow procedures. It seems like the F/As could have restrained him until they landed in IAH had there not been an Air Marshal onboard.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5556 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 21540 times:

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 9):
From what I've read, Air Marshals are not supposed to blow their cover unless a passenger is an imminent threat to the safety of the aircraft.

A guy so belligerent he sexually assaults his seatmate and forcibly grabs a flight attendants arm is most definitely a threat to people's safety.

Besides, only one came out from cover. There was at least one more still guarding the flight deck in secret.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 9):
Either this passenger was really acting up

According to the article, he punched an air marshal after he identified himself as such. That's not exactly the smartest thing to do.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 9):
It seems like the F/As could have restrained him until they landed in IAH had there not been an Air Marshal onboard.

Absent an air marshal or other LEO, it's a pretty safe bet that this guy probably would've been restrained by other passengers. However, the FAM decided it would be best to handle it himself, and I would give him the benefit of any doubt.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 21106 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 6):
Where did he mention the office of AG?

He said that here, in reply 2:

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 2):
Wrong. The Attorney General of the United States does not to get involved in the elementary matter of administering justice to a drunken jackass.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20675 times:

It was my understanding that a FAM is to NEVER reveal their status or do ANYTHING in any in-flight disturbance until an actual breach of the cockpit was attempted.

I guess not, which makes the whole air marshal thing a total waste of money. The unruly passenger could be a decoy and 12 men as strong as olympic wrestlers could suddenly come out of the woodwork as they know exactly where the gun is on the airplane.

Someday, maybe the United States government will take aviation security seriously.


User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20559 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):
I guess not, which makes the whole air marshal thing a total waste of money. The unruly passenger could be a decoy and 12 men as strong as olympic wrestlers could suddenly come out of the woodwork as they know exactly where the gun is on the airplane.

Hence the reason there are more than one, as has been previously been stated.



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5556 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20399 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):
It was my understanding that a FAM is to NEVER reveal their status or do ANYTHING in any in-flight disturbance until an actual breach of the cockpit was attempted.

And you've never read their SOP, and obviously have missed the other stories of air marshal's coming out from cover to arrest unruly pax. So your understanding is limited at best, and willfully misleading at worst.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):
I guess not, which makes the whole air marshal thing a total waste of money.

As opposed to paying a federal officer to just sit there and look pretty while some guy goes nuts in the back.  
Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):
The unruly passenger could be a decoy and 12 men as strong as olympic wrestlers could suddenly come out of the woodwork as they know exactly where the gun is on the airplane.

They know exactly where one gun is. Air marshal's are not dumb, there will always be one within a split-second reach of blocking the cockpit with his gun.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):

Someday, maybe the United States government will take aviation security seriously.

With the exception of the current state of TSA, that is just a bunch of crap.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6099 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20355 times:
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From what I have read, this particular unruly was more agressive and violent than the norm. Plus, the way people are, if it was leaked out that there were marshals onboard that did nothing and left it all to the cabin crew, the FAM would be facing some flaming. There´s never making everybody happy.


MGGS
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20308 times:

To the two replies -

I do understand that there are more than one of them.

The problem is they sometimes board the aircraft in a manner that makes it abundantly obvious as to who each and every one of them are.

Since this issue is probably not best to discuss online in depth I won't go into much detail but I have been on two separate international flights where I was so dissapointed in the way they got on that I almost said something to them. Of course I didn't, because then I'd really be poking a bee-hive but it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the FAMS were sitting on those two flights. And based on the number of them I saw get on, I really really doubt that there were any more. In other words, pax could observe 100% of the air marshal crew get on the plane. Not good!


User currently offlineAmerican762 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 19218 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):
Someday, maybe the United States government will take aviation security seriously.

I'm not exactly sure where you think the US can go as far as avitation security. National Guard aboard every flight in US airspace? There aren't many other options. Given the situation, I think it was time for the FAM to act; assuming of course there were two aboard the aircraft. If there was only one, maybe the FAM was using his best judgement. We don't know the details...perhaps the one male FA quoted was a small scrawny 140lb type...maybe all the other female FA's were in their late 50's (god knows its a reality)...I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt and saying he did what he thought was best.



Pan Am has a place of its' own. You call it the world, we call it home.
User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18960 times:

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 13):
Hence the reason there are more than one, as has been previously been stated.

If one FAM blows his cover then the terrorists know there are more.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
As opposed to paying a federal officer to just sit there and look pretty while some guy goes nuts in the back.

A gut going nuts in the back is not the same as a passenger who poses a danger to the entire aircraft.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 16):
The problem is they sometimes board the aircraft in a manner that makes it abundantly obvious as to who each and every one of them are.

Oh yeah. They might as well announce their presence over the PA. I was booking a flight a couple months back and when I went to select my seat I knew that FAMs were on board by the seats that were already selected.

Quoting American762 (Reply 17):
.perhaps the one male FA quoted was a small scrawny 140lb type...maybe all the other female FA's were in their late 50's (god knows its a reality)...I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt and saying he did what he thought was best.

F/As learn and have to demonstrate their ability to restrain a disruptive passenger during training. Also, I'm sure passengers would be more then willing to help out the F/As if they needed it.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3569 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18576 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 16):
The problem is they sometimes board the aircraft in a manner that makes it abundantly obvious as to who each and every one of them are.

I can certainly vouch for that...when you are the first guy in the international boarding line for Business class (me) and voila, already two guys in first class just sitting there in totally random seats. Very inconspicuous!



A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlineluv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18439 times:
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Quoting B727LVR (Reply 8):
I'm not sure we'll know the answer to that one. The FAM's usually keep their SOP's quiet, and for good reason too.
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 9):
From what I've read, Air Marshals are not supposed to blow their cover unless a passenger is an imminent threat to the safety of the aircraft.
Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):
It was my understanding that a FAM is to NEVER reveal their status or do ANYTHING in any in-flight disturbance until an actual breach of the cockpit was attempted.

They're certainly doing a TERRIBLE job, considering Kim Kardashian was able to out one:

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b167...ashians_air_marshal_buddy_not.html

http://twitter.com/kimkardashian

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):

Someday, maybe the United States government will take aviation security seriously.

With the exception of the current state of TSA, that is just a bunch of crap.

When the "exception" is the front line, and costs billions each year, it's not really an exception anymore.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 18):
Quoting B727LVR (Reply 13):
Hence the reason there are more than one, as has been previously been stated.

If one FAM blows his cover then the terrorists know there are more.

Doesn't that accomplish an objective though - it keeps the terrorists from trying anything?

The best deterrent may actually be to pay an accountant looking person on each flight to "unintentionally" drop some massive hints that would suggest he's a FAM. Better yet, put the non-revs to work!   



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15823 times:

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 18):
If one FAM blows his cover then the terrorists know there are more.

Yes, but do we know how many terrorists there are? Could four air marshals really defeat, say, 40 terrorists on one flight? 60? 100?

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 18):
A gut going nuts in the back is not the same as a passenger who poses a danger to the entire aircraft.

Exactly. Some guy throwing a temper tantrum does not threaten the safety of the aircraft if it's taking place by his seat. This is not what FAMs are for, regardless of if the passenger starts punching people.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 18):
Oh yeah. They might as well announce their presence over the PA. I was booking a flight a couple months back and when I went to select my seat I knew that FAMs were on board by the seats that were already selected.

This I did not even think of. So in addition to the other problems we've discussed, this could be another way that they are blowing their cover. I am not sure how you surmise this from a check-in screen myself, but who knows.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 19):
I can certainly vouch for that...when you are the first guy in the international boarding line for Business class (me) and voila, already two guys in first class just sitting there in totally random seats. Very inconspicuous!

Yo guy, how've you been!

Coincidentally one of the times that happened to me was at LIS.


User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15587 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 21):
This I did not even think of. So in addition to the other problems we've discussed, this could be another way that they are blowing their cover. I am not sure how you surmise this from a check-in screen myself, but who knows.

Lets just say the only two seats booked in the first class cabin were the two seats Air Marshal's typically sit in. I was also booking the flight months in advance. I'm not going to say what seats they are but its widely publicized all over the internet. I'm not positive it was FAMs who selected those seats but its pretty good odds. Bottom line Air Marshals aren't hard to identify.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 21):
Yes, but do we know how many terrorists there are? Could four air marshals really defeat, say, 40 terrorists on one flight? 60? 100?

I doubt that this could happen but if it did the FAMs better have good aim lol.

There needs to be an equal balance between security and convenience. Its kind of like when you get into a car. When you get into a car you don't put on a helmet and a fire suit, but you still put on your seat belt for safety. When we fly we shouldn't all be strip searched for no reason but people shouldn't be waltzing onto planes with bullets and knifes either.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15303 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 6):
That man had to be on something...and usually aren't their 2 sky marshals on board?
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 9):
At least two, sometimes more.

Forgetting for a minute that this information is SSI, I will say that the above resopnse is incorrect.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 12):
I guess not, which makes the whole air marshal thing a total waste of money.

Everyone's an expert!

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 22):
the two seats Air Marshal's typically sit in.

Oh really....Thats news.

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 22):
Bottom line Air Marshals aren't hard to identify.

Even if this were true and it is not, what about all the other armed LEO's that may be on the flight? can you spot them?
  



AIRLINERS.NET MODERATORS SUCK MOOSE DICK!!!!
User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2035 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15219 times:

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 18):
F/As learn and have to demonstrate their ability to restrain a disruptive passenger during training. Also, I'm sure passengers would be more then willing to help out the F/As if they needed it.

That's certainly not true for all airlines.


25 Post contains images fxramper : If there is a FAM onboard and a disruptive pax, cabin crew will ask for assistance. Contrary to the popular untrue belief of members on this site - FA
26 Post contains images boeingfever777 : Obama wants a stronger stance on air travel security and subsequent prosecusions - so I agree 100%, Drew!
27 Post contains images MD11Engineer : "Sugarland bound"? as in the song "Midnight Special"? "If you ever go to Houston, you´d better act right, you´d better not squabble, and you´d bet
28 Post contains images Airportugal310 : Ive been well sir...gotta watch out for all those Portuguese extremists! Good. The diversion of an aircraft because of such trivial circumstances is
29 Post contains images m11stephen : In the US I believe its true. I can't speak for other countries. Nope, I cant.
30 Maverick623 : Most F/As only go through a day of close quarters self-defense training. Basically, there is no way many of them would be able to stop a determined i
31 L1011Lover : WRONG!!! I am a F/A and I can tell you for sure that the training is much more intense... I can't and won't go into details of course. But let me tel
32 Post contains images Wingspan : One of two threads which ticked me off so much I had to find my password. Password found. Are you kidding me? So if you have a gun, and I punch you, y
33 Style : I feel safer already. Holder and Napolitano...cream of the crop!
34 ronmacIAH : Geez, these posts on FAM's keep coming up every couple of months. Half of what is written in earlier posts is true, the other half is incorrect inform
35 m11stephen : So because I'm 16-20 I'm automatically an idiot? Could you call 911 at 35,000 feet and get help from those on the ground? No you can't. The only ones
36 Post contains images DUALRATED : Where do you get your numbers? And you know this how? Here lies half of your problem. Not maybe they have. Really???? Have you read the topic of this
37 GoBoeing : The good guys may have thought things through but the reality is, they could still easily be taken over by terrorists. We do not have enough money to
38 Boeing747_600 : My bad guys! I was probably channeling Janet Reno! Replace AG with DHS and my point still stands intact. DHS should be in charge of monitoring and id
39 Post contains links m11stephen : A couple years ago I was on a CRJ flight and the sole F/A opened the cockpit door to hand the pilots drinks without putting any barrier between himse
40 Cubsrule : This comment conflates two issues, I think: the purpose of the FAM program and its ancillary use. We can argue about whether the FAM program is worth
41 boeingfever777 : Please tell an incident where a passenger involved on a air incident other than terrorism got jail time?
42 Post contains links Cubsrule : Gladly... http://consumerist.com/2008/02/drunk...mburse-american-airlines-7757.html
43 boeingfever777 : Thanks, why does main stream media make it look as if they get off w/o jail time? Also what happen to Joseph Hedlund Johnson, the Giligan Island guy
44 Post contains links m11stephen : I don't consider one billion dollars a year for an organization that has really done nothing to be cost effective. Whats wrong with the FAM assisting
45 Cubsrule : Some (maybe even most) don't. But some do. I don't know that there's a discernible pattern there. You are making a lot of assumptions there, aren't y
46 m11stephen : I'm not trying to make assumptions. I've been told that FAMs are on board as a last line of defense. A drunk is not a threat to the safety of the air
47 Cubsrule : If the choice was between a swat team and a schoolteacher, I might. It's not like f/as are LEOs.
48 m11stephen : What is a LEO sir? filler
49 Post contains images DUALRATED : Seeing where you get your information explains alot... Really????? F/A's and passengers are NOT law enforcement therefore cannot make arrests. Are yo
50 Post contains images m11stephen : Thankyou . So what are the odds??? Give me something that proves that they're actually on more then 5% of flights. Excuse me I meant detaining a pass
51 Post contains images DUALRATED : Your looking at it all wrong, flying on the aircraft is just one part of the job. I don't think you understand what it is that FAMS do exactly. This
52 luv2cattlecall : No, just like the one-in-over-40-million chance that the FAMs actually do anything doesn't justfiy their existence either. We understand that you enj
53 Post contains images DUALRATED : Quick Stats On Federal Air Marshals On Average, a Federal Air Marshal: Flies 181 days per year Flies 15 days per month Spends 900 hours in an aircraf
54 Maverick623 : No, you're just bad at statistics. Are you serious? You do realize there are WAY more pilots than FAMs, right?
55 GoBoeing : You're talking about bad at math. You know there's about 100,000 commercial pilots flying that amount right? Are there 100,000 FAMs? If there are 3,0
56 DUALRATED : No Thats 100,000 got it Um yeah about 100,000 Your right! It's not like they are an Electronics Importer or anything like that.
57 AirframeAS : Along with the CIA as well since it was their job prior to 9/11 and the formation of DHS.
58 richiemo : These people must be handed the stiffest sentences. This behavior can't be tolerated on commercial aircraft. But with our liberal scociety, he'll get
59 mayor : Other than the AMS-DTW flight, can you give us any incidents where it was even necessary?
60 copter808 : [ Likely not, unless there were unusual circumstances. However, if the SWAT team was returning from a call and came across a DUI, I would expect them
61 Cubsrule : But, again, you're answering a different question (whether the program writ large is a good idea) with the one facing us here (whether, given the pro
62 m11stephen : AA63... The "shoe bomber" was foiled by passengers and crew.
63 DUALRATED : Very good! Not that it was only 3 mo after 9-11 and the FAM program that exists today was not even created yet, nice try. So since the implementation
64 Post contains links GoBoeing : DUALRATED - Back to your math, since I'm still curious about the numbers. If pilots and FAMs both work the same amount on average, let's say 5-8 hours
65 m11stephen : Would you like to tell me why FAMs weren't on NW253? The A330-300 is a big plane with lots of fuel and lots of passengers. DTW and AMS are both high
66 Cubsrule : What percentage of flights are on "big planes with lots of fuel and lots of passengers?"
67 GoBoeing : Why does it matter?
68 Cubsrule : If 5% of flights are such flights and 3% of flights have FAMs, there's no particular reason that NW253 should have had one.
69 GoBoeing : I think what he was saying though, was that why not have the FAMs ride on AMS-DTW a bit more instead of Elmira-LGA on a Dash-8 etc. If you were going
70 Post contains images m11stephen : The whole thing is wasteful. All FAMs are doing is flying around "randomly" hoping to be in the right place at the right time. If a terrorist were to
71 Cubsrule : The limited publicly-available information suggests that FAMs do focus on "high-value" flights.
72 Post contains images DUALRATED : Yup that’s it!!! That’s just what they do! And yet I guarantee you couldn’t spot one if you tripped over him or her. Well you will be really un
73 Post contains images m11stephen : LE isn't present on 95% of flights! The TSA approach is treat everyone as a terrorist so its not really apples to oranges. Well I guess the FAMs have
74 Cubsrule : Could you post a link?
75 Post contains links DUALRATED : You must show me where that is stated in the TSA's mission objectives. I have to ask, why would you feel better with a FFDO with one week or so of tr
76 Cubsrule : You've confused me. Nowhere does that article say that FAMs have stopped focusing on "high-value" flights.
77 m11stephen : Because pilots are segregated behind a locked cockpit door. No one can really "sneak up" on them and overpower them. The TSA does not discriminate so
78 DUALRATED : High value? Or do you mean high risk? And you seemed to imply that only high risk flights were targeted by FAM's and I'm (and the article) stating th
79 Cubsrule : Whichever you like; I'm using them interchangeably. If I implied that, it was unintentional. My point was simply that FAMs are more likely to show up
80 MPDPilot : I couldn't resist I had to add my two cents. Security/Safety is the one part of every business where there is no "return on investment". A good Secur
81 Post contains images Wingspan : Then you have illustrated your complete ignorance yet again as to their purpose. Do everyone a favor and realize what others are trying to tell you.
82 MD88Captain : This thread makes me alternately laugh and cry. Those commenting, including the child, have almost no true understanding of the program, the SOP's and
83 Post contains images mayor : Just read this paragraph you wrote and actually think about what you wrote. Of course, they fly around "randomly"....that's the whole idea of the pro
84 m11stephen : Yup, they could do an immediate U-turn and get off the plane or fly until one isn't on their flight. The only thing that made those terrorists "capab
85 mayor : Kinda makes planning a coordinated attack, difficult, don't you think? The whole idea behind the FAM program is its randomness, where the terrorists
86 m11stephen : I can't think of a single post 9/11 air rage or terrorist incident in the US where passengers sat around and did nothing. If you can think of one ple
87 Maverick623 : In fact, the first flight to prevent such an attack was on 9/11. UA93 never made it to Washington. Not only do you not have any relevant training in
88 Post contains images m11stephen : I'm not going to beat a dead horse anymore. ; In my 18 year old opinion, FAMs have been worthless since the program was implemented after 9/11. Hopefu
89 WNCrew : This is correct! I feel like, as a FA, who's been with several carriers, I should chime in... NO, we are NOT LEOs nor do we have any authority to arr
90 Post contains images DUALRATED : Ok I bring on a box cutter today you think I'm hijacking anything? Negative! Deception and FEAR is the weapon they used. and well I might add. Only a
91 mayor : And this is based on what? One incident has happened since the FAM program was in place and you say it's been a failure. How many flights have flown
92 GoBoeing : Letter. I guarantee it didn't do anything though. And I guarantee the TSA employee is just as unprofessional as that day. It has to do with who they
93 m11stephen : This is why F/As are supposed to block the flight deck and galley "area" with carts and themselves so if someone were to come charging they would be
94 Cubsrule : What I think I hear you saying is that all disruptive passenger situations are not created alike, and that's an important point. There are incidents
95 mayor : Unless I'm mistaken, what the FAMs are speaking out about is not the program, itself, or the need for it, but internal problems that have nothing to
96 m11stephen : Hardened cockpit doors don't have to be paid and don't have to be retrained and supervised. Its really a one time fee. They spoke out about how "The
97 Post contains images DUALRATED : Where is the advantage there? Why not armed? You would have an armed pilot, But you don't want to have armed Law Enforcement on board? What are they
98 Cubsrule : That begs the question: how would a terrorist (or anyone else) know whether a random guy/gal helping out with a disruptive passenger is an unarmed of
99 EleVAted : Trust me you will know one way or another if need be. It's not up for passengers to know who is on-board for any reason until the situation escalates
100 Cubsrule : ...if the gun is out, sure. But if not (and the gun is well-concealed - they aren't always), I can't think of a way to tell.
101 m11stephen : Because pilots are segregated behind a locket flight deck door. You really can't "sneak up" on them and steal their gun.
102 Post contains images DUALRATED : You aren't sneaking up on a FAM either...It was nice debating this topic with you however it's a dead end, it's now post 102 and you still don't get!
103 mayor : You mean like the F/As that you want to handle the situation? So, you want something to happen before you'll agree that they are worth something? Bes
104 Post contains images GoBoeing : If you think the cockpit crew, armed or not, is going to open the cockpit door during an in-flight disturbance you are mistaken.
105 Post contains images m11stephen : Even if terrorist attacks didn't exist F/As would still be there. Also, American tax payers don't pay them, the airlines do.
106 mayor : Then why bother letting them have weapons? Yes, for inflight safety reasons, not as a deterrent against terrorist attacks. I don't know of any F/As t
107 GoBoeing : See the posts above in this thread about 101-Ways-To-Enter-The-Cockpit.
108 Post contains images mayor : Do you seriously think any terrorist group would plan for this? From what we have learned from NW253, it looks like terrorists have given up on tryin
109 m11stephen : All F/As are WELL aware of the fact that most of the time they are the last line of defense against a terrorist attack. No F/A is going to say, "Its
110 GoBoeing : I agree fully. There are so many other options available to them that they can probably succeed at, that breach of the cockpit is way too complicated
111 Maverick623 : This statements proves that you need to do a little more research before coming up with your opinions. The official 9/11 report detailed several indi
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