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Union Loses Legal Battle With BA  
User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5135 posts, RR: 33
Posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4829 times:

Quote:

The union Unite has failed in a High Court action against British Airways to try to overturn changes brought in by the airline last year.

It claimed it was not consulted properly, and said the changes including freezing pay and cutting crew on long-haul flights, were imposed.


Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8523758.stm

Hopefully now the strike will not go ahead.


That'll teach you
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTristarAtLCA From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4783 times:

Quoting nighthawk (Thread starter):
Hopefully now the strike will not go ahead.

I also hope so, but this is Unite we are talking about so I am not holding my breath.



If you was right..................I'd agree with you
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 1):
I also hope so, but this is Unite we are talking about so I am not holding my breath.

Considering this is the basis for strike action, and that basis has now been chucked out in court, I would like to think Unite will call of the ballot. I know Im trying to think in an ideal world, but I PRAY sense prevails


User currently offlineTristarAtLCA From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4587 times:

Quoting LHR380 (Reply 2):
Considering this is the basis for strike action, and that basis has now been chucked out in court, I would like to think Unite will call of the ballot. I know Im trying to think in an ideal world, but I PRAY sense prevails

Oh I agree, but Derek Simpson and sense?

Considering they are 0-2 down in this dispute I don't think they can call off the ballot which is due to be announced Monday. If they did, whatever thread of credibility they may have with their members (okay, stop laughing   ) will be totally gone.

I hope I'm wrong although It may allow BA to launch another challenge.



If you was right..................I'd agree with you
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4587 times:

Quoting nighthawk (Thread starter):
Hopefully now the strike will not go ahead.

Oh I'm sure these malcontents will now claim that the court itself was unfair. Please, we didn't have enough of a chance to argue our case!  



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4492 times:

Im REALLY hoping the union stop strike action. I don't want to see people lives put into chaos because to me, the union wants to strike no matter what and ruin the airline and people seem to be seeing it.

I doubt the turn out will be as much as last time, and I hope it turns out good in the end.

We shall see!


User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5190 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4487 times:

Presumably UNITE also have to now pay BA's legal costs.

User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2083 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4462 times:

So having lost the Court case, if the strike ballot is a 'Yes' again it will be interesting to see what the outcome is, i.e. will another strike be called. If so, Easter has been ruled out after the PR disaster of announcing a 12 day strike over Christmas/New Year. I wonder how much appetite for action will have diminished, and whether any crew who may have voted 'Yes' did so expecting a favourable outcome from the Court case?


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2499 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4398 times:

I think Unite should rethink its strategy now... And I am really amazed they have played the card of whith one cabin crew less, they were concerned about the health of the other cabin crew members and passengers... Give me a break, LGW cabin crew are 14 in a 744 and I don't think they are now having burn outs...

Anyway, I have read somewhere that 1000 pilots are ready to replace cabin crew in case of a strike. I surely would like to be on those flights. It would be fun to see the pilots run through the cabin  )) But ultimately, BA's cabin crew are the best out there and they should think twice before driving their airline to the ground.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlinesteve6666 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4390 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Oh I'm sure these malcontents will now claim that the court itself was unfair. Please, we didn't have enough of a chance to argue our case!

There are some absolutely cracking comments from the judge........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...court-fight-to-halt-cost-cuts.html

Going on the dismal quality of Unite's legal argument, I wouldn't have thought BA's costs to get a decent QC to drive a tank through them would be particularly substantial.



eu nasci ha dez mil anos atras, e nao tem nada nesse mundo que eu nao saiba demais
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7135 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

Quoting steve6666 (Reply 9):
There are some absolutely cracking comments from the judge........

Considering the comments made by the judge over the xmas debacle, did anyone expect anything less?

Will take some time to read the finer legal points in the entire case, until then in the eyes of public opinion it's all about management wanting what's best for the employees, employers and the investors and shareholders, and the union being a bunch of selfish malcontents who want to bring the company down and put themselves out of work.

Reality is another story, I hope to get their by reading as much as I can.


User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4345 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 8):
LGW cabin crew are 14 in a 744 and I don't think they are now having burn outs...

Huh, LGW only has 76 and 77s on its longhaul fleet, but I know what you mean, LGW already operate under the on board manning levels as brought in at LHR


User currently offlineplanefixer From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4282 times:

"Huh, LGW only has 76 and 77s on its longhaul fleet, but I know what you mean, LGW already operate under the on board manning levels as brought in at LHR"

Huh, actually BA at LGW only has 777's in its longhaul fleet


User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4269 times:

Quoting planefixer (Reply 12):
Huh, actually BA at LGW only has 777's in its longhaul fleet

Oh yea! Don't know why I thought they had 76s there, guess Im so used to seeing the 76 Longhaul flights at LHR I forgot its only 77s at LGW, my bad!


User currently offlineTristarAtLCA From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 10):
Reality is another story, I hope to get their by reading as much as I can.

What reality? They argued 10 different test cases and lost the lot. The reality appears to be that BA acted lawfully.

They even got the judge to publicly confirm what other BA staff, customers and the public have long thought: having a BA cabin crew contract does not mean you will not be asked to work slightly harder or have to make some changes at the request of your employer if reasonable, which these changes are. That is the reality of this dispute. A reality this union seems unable to grasp.



If you was right..................I'd agree with you
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3745 times:

Im really shocked about some of the things coming. Some interesting stuff coming out of the court today.

Here is the link to the court report from today:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2010/302.html

Quote:
Ms Mussenden provides further figures with presently material significance by way of average hourly operating costs:
BA LHR Worldwide: £60

Eurofleet: £58

By way of comparison:

Longhaul

Emirates: £27

Virgin: £20-27

BA Gatwick: £37

Shorthaul

BMI: £33

Easy Jet: £20

BA Gatwick: £37
Quote:
9th – 30th June – Intermittent talks at Heathrow Renaissance Hotel. In the course of such;

a) 15th June BASSA had a heated argument with Amicus and refused to cooperate together
b) 23rd June BA put forward a proposal in writing. This included specific reductions in crew complements
c) 25th June – Unite put forward a written Pay and Productivity Proposal, claiming that it would save BA £173m. It proposed some alterations in the cabin crew complements but no significant reduction. Thereafter BA tried to understand and analyse the cost saving as anticipated by Unite, bringing in accountants, Price Waterhouse Cooper. The latter's assessment was that the saving would be about £53m. Unite refused to have further discussions over this issue, whether with BA or the accountants.
In the overall result, the meetings broke up without reaching any joint conclusion.
Quote:
x) 21st, 30th September and 1st and 2nd October – Following an agreement reached between BA's CEO and the Joint General Secretaries of Unite, there was a further sustained resort to ACAS for conciliation. I heard evidence as to the course of events at ACAS and the following emerged. The BASSA and Amicus factions were separately represented and sat in separate rooms. Despite the efforts of ACAS they could not be persuaded to join forces for a meeting with BA. The latter raised the possibility of separate agreements with the respective factions but, understandably, that did not appeal. In the overall result there was no meeting between the Union and BA.

Those passages have really shocked me. I hope someone in the union sees sense !!!
I want BA to survive, and I don't know if the union realise that passengers are needed, as well as planes in the sky to be able to do that
The union seem to have lied out of their back teeth for the 2nd time in a row now and have lost a lot of support, both internal and external. Im praying to anyone and everyone that sense prevails over the weekend!


User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5190 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Seems UNITE are living on another planet

http://uniteba.com/COSTSAVINGTALKSPAGE.html

Quote:
As you will now be aware, today's High Court ruling was not in our favour
and as a result, the Judge did not grant the permanent injunction we
sought. However, our case is far from over. This was simply 'round one'.

Our legal team are intent on proving that the crewing level aspect of our
agreement does indeed form part of our contract of employment. To that
end - we are now taking advice from them about the next stage.

Win or lose today - there was ALWAYS going to be a round two - and the
parties were always going to be the same. This is simply the FIRST and
necessary step in our legal battle, in addition to, but entirely separate
from, your right to respond to these impositions in the current ballot -
due to close on Monday.

There are some extremely positive points that you must bear in mind before
you form any erroneous conclusions - especially those proffered by the
media and any predictable company spin.

The Judge did not call our case "nonsense" and certainly did not "throw it
out".

Significantly, Judge Christopher Holland, having delivered his judgment in
person this morning, conversely conceded that he may actually be wrong
about some aspects of his ruling - and that we may wish to appeal. It is
extremely unusual for a trial Judge to grant leave to appeal his own
ruling, but not only did he grant it - he granted 'expedited' leave to
appeal, RIGHT THERE and RIGHT THEN! Neither, interestingly, did he award
British Airways costs.

In addition, the Judge was sympathetic in his ruling about the factual
issues of our case. He found and accepts that flying with less crewmembers
means more arduous work for crew and increased stress, exhaustion and
frustration. British Airways cannot appeal such a finding - and therefore
have to live with this fact - having previously tried to mitigate and
play-down the extra workload you now have.

Perhaps UNITE missed the bit where the judge said

Quote:
how can I condemn the less than extreme changes as unreasonable?

Copy of judgement here
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2010/302.html

Time for UNITE to get real and stop misleading their members.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3467 times:

Quoting ANstar (Reply 16):
Perhaps UNITE missed the bit where the judge said

Quote:
how can I condemn the less than extreme changes as unreasonable

Probably by removing the first two words :

Quote:
I condemn the less than extreme changes as unreasonable?

Wouldnt put it past them...  



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting ANstar (Reply 16):
Perhaps UNITE missed the bit where the judge said

Quote:
how can I condemn the less than extreme changes as unreasonable?


Probably by removing the first two words and the? :

Quote:
I condemn the less than extreme changes as unreasonable

Wouldnt put it past them...  



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3106 times:

The judge gave Unite the right to appeal - and an expidited appeal at that. It is expected sometime between MAR & MAY. I believe the Unions base of the appeal is that too much of the judgement revolved around BA's financial position instead of legal precedent.

He did not award BA costs.

The ballot result will be announced after midday on 22nd.

There will then be a union meeting on 25th where the companys 'final position' will be communicated to the members attending said meeting and a show of hands to accept or reject it. It will be then that any industrial action, when and for how long will be decided.

My fingers are crossed for a compromise and a deal. My two pence worth is that the lower crew complements are generally working, though on some aircraft types (like the Hi J 747 for instance) it is not.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting ANstar (Reply 16):
Time for UNITE to get real and stop misleading their members.

Why can't the BA FA's just decertify UNITE? It seems like the only logical thing to do. If I was an FA for BA, I would be shockingly embarrassed!

This is UNITE's battle against BA alone, not the BA FA's vs. BA, IMO.....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7122 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3027 times:

Quoting bastew (Reply 19):
The judge gave Unite the right to appeal

Straws, and clutching comes to mind. Unite would be crazy to fight this one.

Quoting bastew (Reply 19):
He did not award BA costs.

It still cost you - the staff £1.2m - waste of money. If You (ba cabin crew) decide to go back to court and lose - these costs will quadruple.

The Judge stated

Quoting Judge ]how can I condemn the less than extreme changes as unreasonable?[/quote]

Closed case in my opinion.

[quote=bastew
(Reply 19):
too much of the judgement revolved around BA's financial position instead of legal precedent.

Put your head back in the sand. Read the judgement.


As for a show of hands - well, only the militants turn up to that.... Amazing the amount of Volvos, BMW's nad Merc's that were at the race course the last time - for such poorly paid people, the BA Cabin crew really drive nice cars.

If you strike, prepare to be made redundant.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineTristarAtLCA From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

Quoting bastew (Reply 19):
I believe the Unions base of the appeal is that too much of the judgement revolved around BA's financial position instead of legal precedent.

The judge made it clear that he found managements actions reasonable in light of the financial position of BA. If this is what Unite are hanging their hat on they are more deluded than I thought. Their lawyers must have seen the coming.



If you was right..................I'd agree with you
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Lost all hope that the unions will be sane, they are insane!!!!!

They know they have lost, but don't want to admit it and want to go down with a fight, taking anyone they can with them.

How dare they!!!!!


User currently offlineluv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2808 times:
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Quoting LHR380 (Reply 23):
Lost all hope that the unions will be sane, they are insane!!!!!

They know they have lost, but don't want to admit it and want to go down with a fight, taking anyone they can with them.

How dare they!!!!!

This brings back bad memories of the Eastern debacle.. In the end, it's not about the union members, it's about the ego of the highly paid leadership of said unions.




When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
25 iainbhx : Neither offering an immediate appeal or having it expedited is nothing unusual in IA cases. If an appeal is offered, any order for costs (if applied
26 bastew : Closed case in my opinion. [quote=bastew (Reply 19): too much of the judgement revolved around BA's financial position instead of legal precedent. Pu
27 Post contains links BestWestern : BA stew - will you strike? I dont have to - I just need to watch sky news. From the transcripts it seems that BASSA and Unite fight amongst themselves
28 Post contains images lightsaber : I quote this early reply as it is obvious UNITE will do something more to shoot themselves in the foot. Ghat, I follow UNITE/BA just to be in awe how
29 Post contains images TristarAtLCA : Having read the response from Unite it appears they think they are still in the game. I'll have two of what they're smoking It is addictive isn't it!
30 bongodog1964 : Easy, a lot of impressionable young girls have over the years flown to Orlando with their families courtesy of VS. That red uniform, topped off by bl
31 luv2cattlecall : I'm sure this sounds like a dumb question, but is that how much the entire crew of an aircraft costs per hour, or per crew member? If there's a never
32 Post contains links LHR380 : "Loving" tomorrows newspapers: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...feb/21/ba-cabin-crew-strike-action
33 BestWestern : 10 days - Thought it was going to be a three day strike.
34 LHR380 : I really hope the news have got it wrong!!
35 Post contains images lightsaber : Dude, do you really want to double up on UNITE's stash? You might not like the side effects. Fair enough. I guess that is one way to keep the crew 'u
36 Post contains images TristarAtLCA : Why not? It appears to be totally, like, er, you know.......a weird strain of er....erm....I'm hungry Now thats true. It apparently convinces you the
37 Post contains images lightsaber : Holy crap! Seriously, is UNITE ready for the bad PR coming their way?!? From the link in reply 32: "A trade union source said a ten-day walkout will
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