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Is Qantas Going To Add New International Routes?  
User currently offlinefab747 From France, joined Jun 2008, 22 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10187 times:

According to an article published in the Sydney Morning Herald, Australia is being innondated by carriers from the Gulf.
Why is Qantas not fighting back and offering new routes to match their competitors? Especially that Turkey Air has made a recent announcement to start flights to Australia!

Check this article:
http://www.glgroup.com/News/Qantas-N...-Of-Competitive-Reality-46731.html


fab747
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10136 times:

Quoting fab747 (Thread starter):
Why is Qantas not fighting back and offering new routes to match their competitors?

What routes could Qantas add that would be profitable? They certainly would lose boatloads of money flying BNE-AUH, MEL-DOH, or PER-DXB to directly compete. Flying to Europe requires a stop en route and puts QF at a competitive disadvantage (from a cost and product standpoint) against Middle Eastern and Southeast Asian airlines that aren't tying up their a/c for nearly as long. QF has smartly expanded its ops to East Asia and the Americas, two regions where it does have a competitive advantage against the competition. Makes sense to me!



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3189 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10053 times:

Quoting fab747 (Thread starter):
Check this article:
http://www.glgroup.com/News/Qantas-N....html

I don't know who wrote that article but it's one of the stupidest opinion pieces I've read in ages.

QF has heaps of routes, such as SYD-PEK, MEL-PVG, MEL-NRT, SYD-ICN, FCO, ATH etc etc to add back onto the route map before it gets to the Middle East.

All the Middle Eastern carriers have really done is absorb the growth in the Australia to Europe sector with all of their connections. By and large Australians are using Dubai like they use Singapore or Hong Kong. As a nice place to stop for a couple of days to break up the trip there or back. QF offers the same thing via SIN, BKK or HKG.

Besides which QF has a comprehensive codeshare with Etihad out of Australia to the Gulf region.


User currently offlineVHMATHY From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2009, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9969 times:

I think that in the future Qantas may fly to Europe via the Middle East. Only because its faster than going via Asia, not because there is any real demand for travel between Australia and the Middle East. The fact of the matter is that VERY few people travel just from DXB to SYD eg. On the EK and EY flights from BNE/SYD/MEL only a handful of passengers are bound for DXB/AUH, and more often than not they are Australian cabin crew using their staff travel tickets to go home.
There are thousands of Aussies living in the Gulf, but most of them work for EK and EY! (like me!)

On most flights, nearly every single passenger is bound for Europe or Beirut. There is no demand for travel between Australia and the Gulf, otherwise Qantas would be flying there! A lot of posters on here seem to think Qantas makes some strange decisions (not buying 777, removing first class etc) but seem to forget that they are the one of the most profitable airlines in the world...consistently. Doesnt that indicate that they know what theyre doing? The reason they dont fly to the Gulf is because there is no demand.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9942 times:

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
I think that in the future Qantas may fly to Europe via the Middle East. Only because its faster than going via Asia

No, it isn't.


User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1117 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9933 times:

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
I think that in the future Qantas may fly to Europe via the Middle East. Only because its faster than going via Asia, not because there is any real demand for travel between Australia and the Middle East.

If that is the sole reason, than I fail to see why they would move. How much benefit would you gain from the time saved, compared to losses incurred by the drastic drop in O&D traffic you would have otherwise gained to the transit point?



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineVHMATHY From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2009, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9823 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 5):
If that is the sole reason, than I fail to see why they would move. How much benefit would you gain from the time saved, compared to losses incurred by the drastic drop in O&D traffic you would have otherwise gained to the transit point?

Well seeing as though most of the O&D traffic is between Australia and Europe they probably wouldnt lose much, plus there is a huge demand from the Middle East to Europe. I think QF was smart to codeshare with EY as if they were to fly to AUH in the future they can possibly codeshare on some European routes which would be much more attractive to QF passengers as they can get to DUB/BRU etc with only one stop..and avoid LHR!


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9599 times:

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
Qantas makes some strange decisions (not buying 777, removing first class etc) but seem to forget that they are the one of the most profitable airlines in the world...consistently.

QF group has lost money, its JQ which made the QF group profitable.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offline9MMPD From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 286 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9468 times:

As soon as QF get rights to fly daily to CDG I would expect to see them back there.

It will intresting to see the result of the 787-10 vs A350 order battle for QF. QF could then in theory build up their practicaly depleted European network (FRA being the only continetal European destianation). Maybe MAN, MXP, ZRH or MUC might make it onto the list with direct flights from the Changi hub with these new aircraft meaning pax would not have to back track out of Heathrow. I would think FCO, ATH, IST would be more for Jetsar and their 787s as these are more lesuire and F&R traffic.

Does QF have rights to carry traffic DXB - LHR?


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6347 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9399 times:

I always thought that once the 78s start entering QFs fleet we might see routes like NBO, CAI..maybe even LIM and GRU if the ETOPS issues can be worked around.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineEastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9366 times:

Did QF ever flew to IAD?


AA will Rise Again!
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5808 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8874 times:

Quoting Eastern023 (Reply 10):
Did QF ever flew to IAD?

No. HNL, SFO, YVR, JFK, LAX & YYZ (very briefly) have been their only North Americian destinations.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 9):
always thought that once the 78s start entering QFs fleet we might see routes like NBO, CAI..maybe even LIM and GRU

Don't hold your breath waiting! Well maybe GRU, but not for awhile.

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 8):
Maybe MAN, MXP, ZRH or MUC might make it onto the list with direct flights from the Changi hub with these new aircraft meaning pax would not have to back track out of Heathrow.

Still wouldn't be holding my breath!

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 8):
Does QF have rights to carry traffic DXB - LHR

DXB is totally "open skies" everybody has rights DXB-anywhere. It most likely still falls within the terms of the Australia/UK bi-lateral and will definably be within the Australia/EU agreement if it ever happens.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
QF group has lost money, its JQ which made the QF group profitable

QF Group MADE money. QF lost money, JQ made enough money that QF GROUP made money.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 12339 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8786 times:
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Any one able to confirm rumors about JQ launching USA services from AKL?

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8774 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 11):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
QF group has lost money, its JQ which made the QF group profitable

QF Group MADE money. QF lost money, JQ made enough money that QF GROUP made money.

That's basically what I said friend... 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25999 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8692 times:

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
I think that in the future Qantas may fly to Europe via the Middle East. Only because its faster than going via Asia, not because there is any real demand for travel between Australia and the Middle East.

Why is it faster via the Middle East? It's roughly 200 to 300 nm further than via major Asian gateways and connection times don't seem to be shorter at points in the Middle East. HKG is almost exactly on the great circle route SYD-LHR.

SYD-LHR great circle 9188 nm
SYD-HKG-LHR 9189 nm
SYD-BKK-LHR 9228 nm
SYD-SIN-LHR 9274 nm

SYD-DXB-LHR 9473 nm
SYD-AUH-LHR 9492 nm
SYD-DOH-LHR 9514 nm

The advantage of routing via Asia is that all sectors have strong local O&D demand while traffic between Australia and the Middle East would be very minimal.


User currently offlineVinnieWinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8690 times:

Do you call that an article???

I've always been surprised by the liberal approach adopted by the Australian Government towards UAE carriers. Compare it to Germany's stance on the subject and you see that no wonder that Qantas is not in the best position to fight on the kangaroo route!


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5808 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8639 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
That's basically what I said friend...

No it isn't! Go and reread your post. [nit pick, I know]

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7437 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8537 times:
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Quoting Gemuser (Reply 11):
Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 8):
Maybe MAN, MXP, ZRH or MUC might make it onto the list with direct flights from the Changi hub with these new aircraft meaning pax would not have to back track out of Heathrow.

Still wouldn't be holding my breath!

By the time JQ comes to MAN, there might not be that many pax for them to mop up given the huge increase of EY's capacity and the almost certain 200 seat increase in capacity by EK (be it throguh the A380HD or 3rd daily service). SQ seems to be ceding this market to the Middle East carriers.


User currently offlineQFYMML From Australia, joined Jun 2007, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8372 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 16):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
That's basically what I said friend...

No it isn't! Go and reread your post. [nit pick, I know]

While we're nit-picking, in the latest lot of results, I believe each of the operating entities making up the Qantas Group made money including mainline.
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.



A300,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343/5/6,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8,74SP/2/3/4,752,762/3/4,77E/3/W,L1011,DC9,DC10,S340,DHC6/8,ATR72
User currently offline9MMPD From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 286 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8115 times:

I was also thinking when the 787s eventually arrive DFW and maybe YVR?

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5009 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7754 times:

Quoting VHMATHY (Reply 3):
On most flights, nearly every single passenger is bound for Europe or Beirut. There is no demand for travel between Australia and the Gulf, otherwise Qantas would be flying there! A lot of posters on here seem to think Qantas makes some strange decisions (not buying 777, removing first class etc) but seem to forget that they are the one of the most profitable airlines in the world...consistently. Doesnt that indicate that they know what theyre doing? The reason they dont fly to the Gulf is because there is no demand.

Very well said...
QF over the past 10 years have reported profit after profit while other carriers have been reporting losses during difficult times ( asian economic times, SARS, Sep 11, FLU out break etc... )
My opinion and that only I feel QF have done well considering the global position of the carriers hub.

However I still wish QF had purchased the B77W  EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7702 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 11):

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
QF group has lost money, its JQ which made the QF group profitable

QF Group MADE money. QF lost money, JQ made enough money that QF GROUP made money.

QF would have made money if it wasn't subsidising JQ... and therefore JQ wouldn't have made as much money as a result.
By subsidising, I am referring to QF money buying JQ a fleet of shiny new planes whilst QF has pottered on with old 763s, 734s and 744s. QF could have bought a fleet of 777s replaced all its old 734s etc.
Old aircraft are more mx intensive than new aircraft so JQ has lower mx bills whilst QF has higher ones. Also QF does mx for JQ, a lot of the back of house stuff for JQ is done by QF also. If QF actually charged JQ properly for these then JQ would be making a lot less money and QF a lot more. On the whole the QF group would still be making the same amount of course.


Back OT now...
When the 788s finally arrive expect QF to do so expansion. One of the 1st routes I expect to see is SYD-YVR. I would not be surprised to see SYD-ICN or the return of SYD-PEK (although this might happen before the 788). Eventually I do expect to see QF fly to the gulf and team up with BA for this.... ie BA would fly MAN and LHR, possibly another UK and even an EU port on to a gulf state with QF then flying on to SYD direct and PER most likely (from PER connections to MEL and ADL are pretty easy).
JQ is likely to do other leisure destinations (ie ATH etc) but it is quite likely that QF will return to CDG or another Western EU destination (ZRH was rumoured).
I doubt QF will go back to 3x SYD-LAX flights now that the A380 is about, so 2x daily for SYD-LAX, possibly daily for SYD-SFO, I would think that the 788 gives the opportunity for QF to get into AAs hub in DFW direct. This give pax a bit more flexibility and saves them time. KUL is another destination that QF could serve.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5808 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7643 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 21):
would think that the 788 gives the opportunity for QF to get into AAs hub in DFW direct. This give pax a bit more flexibility and saves them time.

They have that opportunity now or before the B788 arrive, with the A380. It was in fact scheduled for this year, but with the GFC and the subsequent decline in traffic and deferal of some A380s I don't really expect it until 2012 now.

The only advantage the B788 would give them is a lower trip cost, hence need less pax to make it work, BUT, QF seemed pretty convinced that they could get enough pax for it to work with the A380. The power of the worlds second largest hub should not be ignored nor under estimated.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 6595 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 22):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 21):
would think that the 788 gives the opportunity for QF to get into AAs hub in DFW direct. This give pax a bit more flexibility and saves them time.

They have that opportunity now or before the B788 arrive, with the A380. It was in fact scheduled for this year, but with the GFC and the subsequent decline in traffic and deferal of some A380s I don't really expect it until 2012 now.

The only advantage the B788 would give them is a lower trip cost, hence need less pax to make it work, BUT, QF seemed pretty convinced that they could get enough pax for it to work with the A380. The power of the worlds second largest hub should not be ignored nor under estimated.

Gemuser

Quite right. The biggest issue with putting an A380 on the route is not whether it will sell, but how much it will affect LAX operations.
LAX is such an important market for QF and with the likes of VA and DL now flying it, QF needed to keep its shiny new toy on that route for the passengers. I guess it would be possible on the SYD run to have 1xA380 and 1x744.
The question is would a DFW flight result in QF flying say an extra 250 pax per day overall or not. If yes then I'm sure they will find a way to add a few more pax to the LAX flights and downsize one flight to 744 from A380, but if not then it is not a go-er as it would cannibalise the LAX hub too much (not to mention the LAX-JFK flight)



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 5563 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 16):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
That's basically what I said friend...

No it isn't! Go and reread your post. [nit pick, I know]

Well, I think you got my point however.. 
Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 19):
I was also thinking when the 787s eventually arrive DFW and maybe YVR?

DFW and YVR are two markets I definitely expect to see with the B787's....In fact, if QF doesn't start SYD-DFW then I would expect AA to start DFW-SYD once they get their B787's.....



"Up the Irons!"
25 RJ111 : That's if the 787 will be able to do SYD-DFW which is far from certain.
26 ANstar : I dont expect QF to open many routes with their 787's. I would expect a fair few to replace current 767's and replaced the 33o's at Jetstar initially
27 Jacobin777 : If the B789 won't be able to do SYD-DFW with a decent pax and/or payload, that will be the least of QF's problems.
28 RJ111 : Well the specs are 8000nm-8500nm range. SYD-DFW is 7450nm, realistically you'd want at least 8200nm and probably the lot for it to be viable.
29 Jacobin777 : Sounds like its within the limits.....
30 RJ111 : Considering i have just explained that it may well not be within in the limits. I am suprised you have drawn that conclusion.
31 jetskipper : Wasn't ORD announced pre-911? If I recall correctly, it was going to be 4 times a week with Qantas metal via LAX.
32 tayser : Yes ORD was going to be an extension of QF93/94 MEL-LAX-ORD-LAX-MEL
33 Jacobin777 : 8200nm is within the 8000nm-8,500nm range......pending on QF's configuration for the B789. Lets just say it can't do DFW-SYD, QF might go SYD-AKL-DFW
34 DavidByrne : I'd be very surprised if NBO was right now in the picture given the current political instability there. Do we know for sure that QF doesn't have a "
35 Post contains images CSTOE : What about South America? Is it intresting for Qantas? I would love to see a GRU-SYD route (long one uhm...?)!
36 Jacobin777 : SARS.....
37 mandala499 : Nope... Given the choice of stopover on SYD-LHR in HKG, DXB and SIN... Via DXB is the longest... Now, here's something funny... Let's start with aski
38 Gemuser : In fact most of the services provided to JQ by QF ARE provided on a "marginal cost" basis, not full costing. Do you know why? Because if they were no
39 Jacobin777 : Excellent point there mandala499, but DFW does open some other airports not serviceable by LAX or SFO...such as LGA to name one. its a close call...b
40 RJ111 : It sure will open up some destinations. But why would you fly SYD-AKL-DFW-LGA when you could just sit on the one stop SYD-LAX-JFK? AKL-DFW has some Et
41 Jacobin777 : I debated that as well, but I do remember QF mentioning certain advantages flying to DFW over LAX/SFO. I gave LGA as one hypothetical example. I expe
42 DavidByrne : I can see the logic there, but where routes may be transferred from QF to JQ, the analysis would be quite complex, and public announcements on the re
43 Post contains images mandala499 : That one makes more sense... but then, it ends up as a 2 stopper for SYD-AKL-DFW-XXX... you can already have SYD-LAX-DFW-XXX... so the advantage woul
44 Post contains images Gemuser : JQ got the best deal available, you can be sure of that! Joyce was RUTHLESS on costs, I don't think RR spoke to him for years! Gemuser
45 sunrisevalley : You need EDTO 240 minutes to avoid a fly around on the AKL-DFW sector. I am sure that will come but right now I believe it takes 2-years operating ex
46 MEA : I'd like to see QF add BEY to their network...
47 Airvan00 : They sortof have.. QF3900 QF3902 and QF3910 to BEY most days (code share on Etihad) . I'm sure they will look at the figures to see how many book on
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