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DL AMS-BOM? Which Freedom?  
User currently offlineDLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1911 posts, RR: 19
Posted (4 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3506 times:

I just noticed Delta is marketing AMS to BOM and back on an A330. Tickets are available for purchase on just these routes with no required start or finish in America. This sounds like seventh freedom rights but the flight comes from and goes onto DTW, which could make it fifth freedom rights. So which one is it? Also, it this made possible by Open Skies? I know the Netherlands has a history of air freedom liberalization but I wasn't aware this sort of flight existed on an American carrier.

9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1658 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3470 times:

NW flew AMS-BOM for years before open skies between EU and USA came into place. The reason, primarily, is because the bilateral between India and Amsterdam limits the number of KL flights to India - so NW operated BOM as part of its joint venture with KL in lieu of KL metal. In any event, the BOM flights are indeed operated with fifth freedom rights as the route continues to/from an endpoint in the USA with local traffic rights in both directions from AMS.

User currently offlinenickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3442 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 1):
The reason, primarily, is because the bilateral between India and Amsterdam limits the number of KL flights to India - so NW operated BOM as part of its joint venture with KL in lieu of KL metal.

I'm fairly sure that the Indian flights were not part of the joint-venture as KL was not able to code-share on NW's BOM flights.


User currently offlineUSFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3430 times:

NW/DL has flown this route (as a part of their JV with KL) for almost 10 years. The Netherlands/India bilateral limited KL to 7 flights a week to India (this was changed in 2005) so KL consolidated to 7x weekly to DEL and NW began flying 7x to BOM using frequencies permitted under the US/India bilateral with KL codesharing. So basically this is KL flight thta just happens to historically be operated by NW/DL due to restrictive air service agreements. It is 5th freedom by the way, the flight # must begin or end in the US in order for it to be cover by the India/US bilateral.

User currently offlineDLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1911 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3417 times:

Thanks guys! I'm in an international aviation class right now and have been studying these kind of agreements. Thanks for the insight!

User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3396 times:

Even pre-merger, Delta was flying CDG-BOM with a 767-300 for most of the 2000s, with AF codesharing on these flights (this ended with the JFK-BOM flights on the 777). Before moving the flight to CDG, Delta had been running FRA-BOM with full local traffic rights through most of the 1990s (post-PA TATL acquisition) and into the 2000s.

Delta also did CDG-Chennai with a 767-300 with local rights in the 2000s for a year or so - Delta ended up dropping this and AF picked it up.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2986 times:

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 3):
The Netherlands/India bilateral limited KL to 7 flights a week to India (this was changed in 2005) so KL consolidated to 7x weekly to DEL and NW began flying 7x to BOM using frequencies permitted under the US/India bilateral with KL codesharing.
Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 2):

I'm fairly sure that the Indian flights were not part of the joint-venture as KL was not able to code-share on NW's BOM flights.

KL did not codeshare on the NW AMS-BOM flight, until the relaxation of the bilateral a few years ago. (now it allows for 21x weekly, of which 7 are currently not used). It was not part of the transatlantic codeshare either.

There was, however, an interline and marketing agreement between KL and NW on the route: KL sold the flight in Europe at klm.com, including connections via AMS on other KLM-flights. But it only carried the NW flight number.

For the passengers, it didn't really make a difference compared to the current situation. Fares AMS-BOM and AMS-DEL were also similar, and Flying Dutchman miles (later FB) could be collected as well. The only thing was that the flight had no KL-flight number, just a NW.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

DL has operated FIFTH FREEDOM authority between Europe and India since it bought the Pan Am routes in 1991. Previous to CDG, DL operated FRA-BOM and DEL on different days of the week although DEL was dropped in favor of a single route to BOM.
I'm not sure when NW started AMS-BOM but it also was operated on a fifth freedom route.

NW and DL's routes to India from AMS and CDG were/are part of the joint ventures.


User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2975 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2947 times:

So if I'm understanding it correctly DL can operate any number of flights between US to India via AMS HOWEVER KLM is restricted to 21 pw.

As I believe India and the US have open skies agreement.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

that is not necessarily true.... The US has Open Skies w/ the EU and with India but fifth freedom rights between countries does not necessarily allow unlimited 5th freedom rights.

It would in fact be extremely unusual for a 5th freedom carrier to have more rights than a local carrier.

Further, it is also highly unlikely that DL would want to operate more than a couple routes to India via AMS or CDG. If the demand and finances are strong enough to justify multiple 5th freedom routes, the market would likely justify nonstop service from the US. the only reason why DL is not serving US to India nonstop is because yields have become so depressed over the past 2 years that it is unlikely that any carrier is making money flying between the US and India. DOT data shows that yields have fallen more than 25% in the most recent quarter for which data is available - last summer from the previous summer. Remember that India opened its own markets so there was a flood of new capacity added to Europe as well as some to the US and this has depressed yields to India. All of this new capacity came into the market as the global economy fell apart. The market will recover but for now carriers are holding onto their positions and trying to gain market share for the longhaul. With 787s coming for several airlines and DL's ability to deploy the LR, there will be more and more US-India nonstop routes... but for now everyone is sitting tight and waiting for the market to recover.

Also, the DL/AF/KL joint venture does include nonstop routes between the US and many countries other than the EU; I'm not sure if India is one of them but it is to DL and AF/KL's benefit for DL to be able to operate nonstop routes while whoever can best operate the EU to India segment do that as well because those revenues are also shared regardless of who operates the route.


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